Has seeing Fahrenheit 9/11 changed your opinion on who you will vote for?

[rushmore223]

I am sure many know where I stand politically. The point of this poll is to see if this has actually swayed a single vote.

[Canadian Bacon]

No, I don't need a movie to tell me that Bush sucks ;)

[Corvin]

I wasn't going to vote for Bush. And I'm still not going to vote for Bush.

[Matthew Chmiel]

Originally posted by Canadian Bacon
No, I don't need a movie to tell me that Bush sucks ;)
Exactly. I knew Bush sucked prior to watching the film, and my opinion still stands. At least the film showed an entertaining way of why Bush sucks. ;)

[scott1598]

SOMEBODY MERGE THESE GOD DAMN THREADS ALREADY!! ALL THESE 9/11'S ARE SO FREGGING ANNOYING. THERE ARE OTHER MOVIES AND LIFE OUT THERE!!!!

[rushmore223]

Originally posted by scott1598
SOMEBODY MERGE THESE GOD DAMN THREADS ALREADY!! ALL THESE 9/11'S ARE SO FREGGING ANNOYING. THERE ARE OTHER MOVIES AND LIFE OUT THERE!!!!

If it is that annoying, than don't click on the thread. By commenting on it, your just bumping the thread back to the top. This is a poll, kinda hard to merge this with the other threads and get the same results.

I would be open to a sub-forum for Fahrenheit 9/11, like they did with Lord of the Rings and Matrix. Then we would not have to hear people like you whine about a few threads on the same topic.

[Tarnower]

I'm not naive enough to let some piece of agit-prop get the better of me. Michael Moore's agenda is certainly not mine. Almost every point he makes in his piece of crap can be taken apart and exposed for the slanted, agenda-driven, socialist views that they are. I'm not the biggest fan of Bush, and politics is a dirty game. Anyone that is all of a sudden surprised by that needs to get a grip. If John Kerry is elected, this country will be much worse off. He's more clueless than Bush.

[zak52]

Originally posted by scott1598
SOMEBODY MERGE THESE GOD DAMN THREADS ALREADY!! ALL THESE 9/11'S ARE SO FREGGING ANNOYING. THERE ARE OTHER MOVIES AND LIFE OUT THERE!!!!
Wow, this coming from somebody that started an unncessary Dawn of the Dead thread. :rolleyes:

[brizz]

yes....i suppose what we really need instead are a few more "White Chicks: what a funny little gem!" threads.....

[rushmore223]

Originally posted by scott1598
rushmore you're an idiot!!! this is a forum for MOVIES!!! Not fregging politics and who you are going to vote for!!!! all your doing is littering this forum and if a mod sees this will hopefully close it as it HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MOVIES only that it simply references a movie!!
THIS IS NOT A FORUM TO DISCUSS POLITICS DOUFUS!!!

Maybe they will just ban you for calling me an idiot.

If you cant make the connection between the cause and effect a movie makes on our society and it's relevance to this forum, than maybe you should stop throwing insults at others and concentrate on your own difficiencies.

Again, if you have a problem with the subject matter, than go away, nobody asked you to post, and nobody asked for your insults.

[chess]

Wow...the republicans sure are getting testy. rotfl Relax fellas, you've still got foxnews, rush limbaugh, hannity, savage, et al.

I didn't need F9/11 to tell me that Bush is an embarrassment, but it sure was entertaining. :D We need an option for "wasn't going to vote for that assclown anyway".

[johnglass]

Originally posted by scott1598
rushmore you're an id***!!! this is a forum for MOVIES!!! Not fregging politics and who you are going to vote for!!!! all your doing is littering this forum and if a mod sees this will hopefully close it as it HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MOVIES only that it simply references a movie!!
THIS IS NOT A FORUM TO DISCUSS POLITICS!!!

sorry to be blunt, but tough!

Oh, I think a mod will be taking action, but not in the way you think...

[Sunday Morning]

Originally posted by Tarnower
I'm not the biggest fan of Bush, and politics is a dirty game.

Yup, it sure is. Especially when people die because of it.
Bush certainly stinks.
Kerry looks like he stinks.
They all stink.
It's a question of who is less stinky.
F911 hasn't changed my opinions, but it did revive my emotions regarding our (not quite) elected leader.

[scott1598]

ok..and "concentrating on your own deficiencies" is not a retort of an ill nature i suppose? i guess we will both be getting banned for this slightly off centered commenting. but all in all i do have a point and mods have agreed with the political debate time and time again. sorry!

[caiman]

Originally posted by scott1598
rushmore you're an id***!!! this is a forum for MOVIES!!! Not fregging politics and who you are going to vote for!!!! all your doing is littering this forum and if a mod sees this will hopefully close it as it HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MOVIES only that it simply references a movie!!
THIS IS NOT A FORUM TO DISCUSS POLITICS!!!

sorry to be blunt, but tough!

Please keep this fregging shit up. I'd so love to see you get fregging banned.

EDIT: Fregging

[scott1598]

what did i do?

[gcribbs]

I will be voting for Bush in November. No change.

[DeputyDave]

Originally posted by scott1598
what did i do? He must be thinking of Scot1558, he really knew how to piss off the left.

[scott1598]

u mean scot1458? i think people mix us up a lot, please distinguish. i know i say some things, but bleeping out id*** i don't think is that bad. i mean at one time there were 5 threads on the same movie..that is just such overkill and i guess i got frustrated.

[tanman]

Originally posted by Tarnower
I'm not naive enough to let some piece of agit-prop get the better of me. Michael Moore's agenda is certainly not mine. Almost every point he makes in his piece of crap can be taken apart and exposed for the slanted, agenda-driven, socialist views that they are. I'm not the biggest fan of Bush, and politics is a dirty game. Anyone that is all of a sudden surprised by that needs to get a grip. If John Kerry is elected, this country will be much worse off. He's more clueless than Bush.

:up:

I agree, and I will still be voting for Bush.

[caiman]

Originally posted by scott1598
u mean scot1458? i think people mix us up a lot, please distinguish. i know i say some things, but bleeping out id*** i don't think is that bad. i mean at one time there were 5 threads on the same movie..that is just such overkill and i guess i got frustrated.

Christ, I had no idea there were two different Scott1XX8's. Do you guys know each other?

But I looked at your past posts, and you're the one I was thinking of, so I stand by my comment. Please stop acting like a mod.

[scott1598]

no, i have no idea who that guy is. how do i act like a mod? nevermind, i'll just drop it.

[PopcornTreeCt]

I wouldn't suspect this movie would change anyone's mind on this forum. Its everyone else who gets their news through word of mouth.

[matome]

I wasn't going to vote for Bush, but now I will.

[MrX]

Nope, still not voting for Bush

[caiman]

Originally posted by scott1598
no, i have no idea who that guy is. how do i act like a mod? nevermind, i'll just drop it.

Well, you asked, so I'll answer by quoting this insightful post of yours:

"rushmore you're an id***!!! this is a forum for MOVIES!!! Not fregging politics and who you are going to vote for!!!! all your doing is littering this forum and if a mod sees this will hopefully close it as it HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MOVIES only that it simply references a movie!!
THIS IS NOT A FORUM TO DISCUSS POLITICS!!! "

Telling people they’re "littering the forum" and that "This is not a forum to discuss politics" is playing moderator. The mods are competent and can do their jobs without assistance.

[tanman]

Originally posted by PopcornTreeCt
I wouldn't suspect this movie would change anyone's mind on this forum. Its everyone else who gets their news through word of mouth.

And that's exactly what I don't like. It's bad enough when people don't put enough effort to find out about the candidates and just vote for whoever based on Inside Edition. Now we have a highly movie made by a person with his own extreme agenda swaying votes. I don't care if it is from a liberal or a conservative viewpoint that is not a good way to choose who you vote for.

[IMRICKJAMES]

I watched it and it didn't change my opinion.

I'll go as far as saying if this "documentary" changes your mind I feel sorry for you. If you let a one sided skewed movie change how you think then something is wrong.

[Rammsteinfan]

NOpe, wasnt going to vote for Bush and still wont. ;)

[Bust]

I wasn't going to vote for Bush, but there's nothing I love seeing more than a bunch of pansy assed liberals whine and cry for another four years. It's amazing how many people I know that feel exactly the same way...

[rushmore223]

Originally posted by Bust
I wasn't going to vote for Bush, but there's nothing I love seeing more than a bunch of pansy assed liberals whine and cry for another four years. It's amazing how many people I know that feel exactly the same way...

Seems like most of the whining isnt being done by the liberals, at least not in this forum.

[Groucho]

I wasn't going to vote for Bush, until Moore showed the interview with Britney Spears where she said we should all obey him without question. I figure maybe she'll be at a fundraiser or something, so if I pretend to be a republican I can get a shot at banging her.

[Bust]

Originally posted by rushmore223
Seems like most of the whining isnt being done by the liberals, at least not in this forum.

This may come as a shock to you, and most people here for that matter....


Look outside, you see that? The REAL world. Put down your keyboard and walk out slowly, the sun might blind you momentarily but soon your eyes will adjust. If you don't live near a metropolitan area, do yourself a favor and go visit one. Report back here with your findings on who is doing the whining.

I can't wait!!

[Groucho]

It doesn't matter who's in office, half the country will still whine. The conservatives whined all 8 years Clinton was in office, the liberals are whining now. Ebb and flow.

[Get Me Coffee]

Not going to vote Bush either!!!!!! Bush is a MONSTER!!!!!! I'm not to hot for Kerry either...but he'll get my vote out of default.

[Pharoh]

Originally posted by Get Me Coffee
Not going to vote Bush either!!!!!! Bush is a MONSTER!!!!!! I'm not to hot for Kerry either...but he'll get my vote out of default.


Yeah, me too! :mad:

That guy is evil.

[RoboDad]

Originally posted by Get Me Coffee
Not going to vote Bush either!!!!!! Bush is a MONSTER!!!!!! I'm not to hot for Kerry either...but he'll get my vote out of default.
If Bush is a "MONSTER," Kerry is an

UBER-MONSTER!!!!!!!!!!!!

(Can you guess who I am voting for? ;))

[Frank TJ Mackey]

People are forgetting that the movie will hit DVD in Sept or Oct and then "literally everyone" will have a chance to see it.

Even if it registers a few extra people to vote, that's a good thing.

Didn't need this film though to tell me that Bush Jr. was an arrogant, wealthy and crooked businessman (if he can indeed be called that).

The film may not sway any votes, but at least it shows the moderate right wing what an enormous hole Bush Jr. has dug for their party. Sad, really.

[rushmore223]

Originally posted by Bust
This may come as a shock to you, and most people here for that matter....


Look outside, you see that? The REAL world. Put down your keyboard and walk out slowly, the sun might blind you momentarily but soon your eyes will adjust. If you don't live near a metropolitan area, do yourself a favor and go visit one. Report back here with your findings on who is doing the whining.

I can't wait!!

Ooooooh, you mean this isnt the real world?!

Trust me, I get heavier doses of the real world in my job alone than many could handle.

Does New York count? I'm there pretty often. Seems since this movie was released, the whining is coming from the other side of the aisle.

Then again, Bush does give us all alot to whine about. Murder for Oil, If I was a family member of a deceased soldier, there would be alot more than whining. How dare he send off this nations youth to die so he and others can make a tidy profit.

Oh well, I guess the republicans think there is an acceptable number of deaths attached to the million of dollars that flow into their accounts. Not to mention the number of innocent civillians that have had to die for this sham of a war.

I will shed no tears for Saddam Hussein, I am glad he is gone, but two wrongs have never made a right.

By the way, to the poster who referred to Kerry as an UBER MONSTER, what exactly is the reason you call him this? If all you can come up with is that he spoke out against the Viet-Nam war, than don't bother to respond. At least Kerry witnessed first hand what he spoke out against, much more than could be said about Dubya. Georgie was busy making sure the Texas coast was safe from invaders I guess, thanks to his influential Daddy.

[BigDaddy]

Going to vote for Bush just like last time. The movie made me sick. :(

[Pharoh]

Originally posted by Frank TJ Mackey
People are forgetting that the movie will hit DVD in Sept or Oct and then "literally everyone" will have a chance to see it.

Even if it registers a few extra people to vote, that's a good thing.

Didn't need this film though to tell me that Bush Jr. was an arrogant, wealthy and crooked businessman (if he can indeed be called that).

The film may not sway any votes, but at least it shows the moderate right wing what an enormous hole Bush Jr. has dug for their party. Sad, really.


:up:
:up:

I know exactly what you mean and I couldn't agree more.

I mean, how will the republicans ever take control of the senate, or the house of reps, or the statehouses, or the governorships?


Sad indeed. But not really. This is good.

[troystiffler]

I don't vote, and Fahrenheit 9/11 isn't going to change that.

[PopcornTreeCt]

Originally posted by troystiffler
I don't vote, and Fahrenheit 9/11 isn't going to change that.

Amen to that!

[Rammsteinfan]

I never registered to vote in the past and I did yesterday for the first time... The film didnt change that in itself, its alot of things that have been going on lately.

[cupcake jesus]

Originally posted by rushmore223
...If I was a family member of a deceased soldier, there would be alot more than whining. How dare he send off this nations youth to die so he and others can make a tidy profit.

Oh well, I guess the republicans think there is an acceptable number of deaths attached to the million of dollars that flow into their accounts. Not to mention the number of innocent civillians that have had to die for this sham of a war.

Nah, I'm still voting for Bush. Voted for McCain in the 2000 primaries. I think Kerry will rule by poll. Not a good idea, in my book. Moore's film is good and funny and well-edited for effect, but like many point out, more of an essay film than a statement of fact.

rushmore223-

If I didn't know better and only read your post, I'd think that the military is a jobs program. Or drafted. But it's a volunteer armed force. Funny.

A bipartisan legislature passed military spending bills, not just the elephants. The asses, too. I'm a registered Republican. I haven't recieved my war check. Maybe they direct deposited it.

And how 'bout Kofi's food-for-oil millions? And France's spotty past with weapons selling & testing. Look into that, and be really enraged.

But I agree that two wrongs don't make a right. So I suggest not implying violence in return for your hypothetical KIA son, daughter, cousin, or mama.

Cheers.

-the Jesus

Mods: if my post is too off-topic, feel free to edit all but my response regarding the film and my voting behavior, it is your site to run, after all. I felt it appropriate to participate in what seems to have turned into a spirited (if a bit emotional) political debate.

[IMRICKJAMES]

I'm not trying to start any bashing or anything like that, I'm genuinely curious why Bush being rich and being born with a silver spoon in his mouth is looked at so negatively, but the same people who think that way have no problem with John Kerry being rich. He was rich all his life and born with the same silver spoon in his mouth...and now after marrying into the Heinz family he's even richer. If Kerry is elected it'll be the richest presidency ever.

[Tarnower]

Originally posted by IMRICKJAMES
I'm not trying to start any bashing or anything like that, I'm genuinely curious why Bush being rich and being born with a silver spoon in his mouth is looked at so negatively, but the same people who think that way have no problem with John Kerry being rich. He was rich all his life and born with the same silver spoon in his mouth...and now after marrying into the Heinz family he's even richer. If Kerry is elected it'll be the richest presidency ever. I believe it's because it doesn't fit their agenda to point that out. Just like it was Richard Clarke's decision to send the Saudi's in flight (and not Bush's, as Moore would have you believe). Doesn't fit the agenda, so no need to bring it up, I guess.

[Frank TJ Mackey]

to the two above posts, the "issue" isn't that Bush is filthy rich, it's that he's filthy rich and gets away with damn near murder because of it.

the war on Iraq: absurd
the Florida election: also absurd with all the cheating going with Governor Jeb Bush and Judge Kathryn Harris.

everything stinks all the way around, people across the country are pissed and want him out of office.

and not just Democrats either, decent regular people, who happen to vote Republican are even ashamed of this man, and that's saying something.

Will people still vote for him, of course they will. I'm just greatly amused at anyone who thinks this man is actually qualified to be president.

He's simply started a war to avenge his father who couldn't get Saddam. His oil interests are all over the middle east and his family is connected with Saudis and families of terrorists.

It's disgusting.

John Kerry may have money in his campaign now, but nothing close to Bush. Kerry didn't send troops over to die for bullsh**.

We should've gone after Osama full force from the beginning and not stopped until we'd gotten him.

So yeah, Kerry and his wife are rich as are Bush and his entire family.

The point is that people don't hate George W. Bush "because" he's rich. They hate him because he's turned the country upside down.

Call the film all lies or whatever, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

[angryyoungman]

Originally posted by Tarnower
I believe it's because it doesn't fit their agenda to point that out. Just like it was Richard Clarke's decision to send the Saudi's in flight (and not Bush's, as Moore would have you believe). Doesn't fit the agenda, so no need to bring it up, I guess. Please stop misrepresenting what is in the film. The film clearly states that the decision to let the planes fly was made by the White House. Richard Clarke worked in the White House. There is no implication in the film that Bush made that particular decision at all.

[ChrisKnudsen]

nader!!!

[Chad]

Originally posted by ChrisKnudsen
nader!!!

Homer: America, take a good look at your beloved candidates. They're nothing but hideous space reptiles. [unmasks them][audience gasps in terror]
Kodos: It's true, we are aliens. But what are you going to do about it? It's a two-party system; you have to vote for one of us.[murmurs]
Man1: He's right, this is a two-party system.
Man2: Well, I believe I'll vote for a third-party candidate.
Kang: Go ahead, throw your vote away.
[Kang and Kodos laugh out loud]
[Ralph Nader smashes his "Nader 04" hat]

[pro-bassoonist]

Based on the impact the film has had THUS FAR I would say that one should look more into what areas are getting "represented" here. What I mean is this:

I see the majority of the posters here that favor Kerry are based in the so-called "democratic" states- CA, NY, IL.....or at least that is what your profiles indicate. On the contrary the Bush supporters are, again based on your profiles, in the so-called "conservative"states- TX, IA, etc...

The real impact the movie will have on its audience is still to be seen....

Pro-B

ps

Pharoh: I always thought that you were an adamant Bush supporter and a conservative. I am lost now.....:hscratch:

[digitalfreaknyc]

Originally posted by Tarnower
If John Kerry is elected, this country will be much worse off. He's more clueless than Bush.

Is that humanly possible?

I don't think so.

[digitalfreaknyc]

Originally posted by Rammsteinfan
I never registered to vote in the past and I did yesterday for the first time... The film didnt change that in itself, its alot of things that have been going on lately.

I've never voted before but signed up after the atrocity that has been the Bush administration.

[pro-bassoonist]

Originally posted by digitalfreaknyc
Is that humanly possible?

I don't think so.

rotfl

[IMRICKJAMES]

Originally posted by angryyoungman
Please stop misrepresenting what is in the film. The film clearly states that the decision to let the planes fly was made by the White House. Richard Clarke worked in the White House. There is no implication in the film that Bush made that particular decision at all.

Yes, the film says the decision was made by the white house, but why do you think Moore didn't say the decision was made by Clarke?....because when you hear the decision was made by the white house you don't think of people working in the white house you think of the president

[Abranut]

Originally posted by IMRICKJAMES
Yes, the film says the decision was made by the white house, but why do you think Moore didn't say the decision was made by Clarke?....because when you hear the decision was made by the white house you don't think of people working in the white house you think of the president

Did you even see the movie? Richard Clarke states that he did it.

[Bust]

Originally posted by digitalfreaknyc
Is that humanly possible?


Yes, it is. I can't believe that there are morons in this world that actually want to learn this the hard way. Luckyily the rest of us won't let that happen.

[Bust]

Originally posted by Abranut
Did you even see the movie? Richard Clarke states that he did it.

Does he say this on camera? I hadn't heard that.

Regardless, Rick James is right. Moore uses the term, "The Whitehouse" instead of just saying Clarke's name to imply the President made the decision.

There is no other reason not to use Clarke's name, as he is well known by now.

[Tarnower]

There is a deconstructionist documentary coming out titled "Why Michael Moore Hates America." I think it is coming out in August. It supposedly takes apart "Fahrenheit 9/11" and exposes most of the so-called "facts" that Moore has perpetrated upon so many angry leftists. On the news, it states that the documentary is being readied to act as a counter-balance against Moore's film, and that it will be positioned alongside his film at retail and rental outlets. That should be a hoot! :)

[chess]

Originally posted by Bust
Yes, it is. I can't believe that there are morons in this world that actually want to learn this the hard way. Luckyily the rest of us won't let that happen.

Morons?

Luckyily [sic] your prognostication is worse than your spelling. Thank you for adding so much to this thoughtful discussion of the film that "the rest of us" are having.

[stevearino]

I was gonna vote for Kerry, but after seeing this pile of blatant propaganda, something that the right has been so accused of for 3 1/2 years now, I will be voting for Bush.
I feel extremely ashamed to have been part of the Democratic spin machine for so long. Going republican has made me feel as though all the dirt has finally come off of me after countless showers.
yuck, what a dirty party the democrats are. Pond scum. Blech!

[digitalfreaknyc]

yuck, what a dirty party the democrats are. Pond scum. Blech!

Wait. You think that about Democrats???

Have fun with the Repubs. Do some research and we'll see you in a few months. ;)

[digitalfreaknyc]

Originally posted by Tarnower
There is a deconstructionist documentary coming out titled "Why Michael Moore Hates America." I think it is coming out in August. It supposedly takes apart "Fahrenheit 9/11" and exposes most of the so-called "facts" that Moore has perpetrated upon so many angry leftists. On the news, it states that the documentary is being readied to act as a counter-balance against Moore's film, and that it will be positioned alongside his film at retail and rental outlets. That should be a hoot! :)

My only hope is that Bush himself does the voiceover. I'd see it for the mispronunciations alone. ;)

[raven56706]

Still Voting for Bush...... Sorry but if Moore did an unbiased movie.... then maybe i would have been more open minded but he just had an agenda....


Sorry but when Moore's "facts" are put out like that... he has been putting America down since day 1.

[mmconhea]

Originally posted by Canadian Bacon
No, I don't need a movie to tell me that Bush sucks ;)
:up:

[kcbrett5]

Originally posted by Bust
Yes, it is. I can't believe that there are morons in this world that actually want to learn this the hard way. Luckyily the rest of us won't let that happen.

Back this up with something and it will be more effective. What are your reasons for hating Kerry?

Moore laid out a whole laundry list of reasons to dislike and distrust Bush in this film. What evidence (be specific) do you have against Kerry?

I ask because I am genuinely interested. All I ever read here is that Kerry is worse but nobody ever says why. That isn't good enough.

[kcbrett5]

Originally posted by raven56706
Still Voting for Bush...... Sorry but if Moore did an unbiased movie.... then maybe i would have been more open minded but he just had an agenda....


Sorry but when Moore's "facts" are put out like that... he has been putting America down since day 1.

Again, please explain which "facts" trouble you. If you lay them out intelligently, then we can actually discuss them. Blanket statements of disbelief don't really accomplish much.

Let's attempt to raise the level of discussion here to actual debate.

It's very easy to dismiss things because somebody had an agenda. It is much harder to disect them and reveal the agenda to people. Everyone in life has an agenda, but this doesn't mean everyone lies. The truth is out there if you search for it.

[raven56706]

here are some facts... its what he said on the daily show....

"This movie is my opinion....it may be right, and it may be wrong, but it is my opinion and I think it's the right one. I'm not trying to show all sides, i'm trying to get my point of view across - and you are free to agree or disagree with it. Yes it is biased, that is a given. But so is the right-wing agenda that this movie seeks to counter."

[Shannon Nutt]

Originally posted by raven56706
here are some facts... its what he said on the daily show....

"This movie is my opinion....it may be right, and it may be wrong, but it is my opinion and I think it's the right one. I'm not trying to show all sides, i'm trying to get my point of view across - and you are free to agree or disagree with it. Yes it is biased, that is a given. But so is the right-wing agenda that this movie seeks to counter."

Yes, but you left out what Moore also said - he said that the FACTS presented in his film are TRUE and he will defend them. He said when something is stated as a fact, it is indeed a documented fact. He had three fact checking companies and legal counsel assigned to the movie to make sure the documentation he presented was correct.

There's a "Facts Archive" over on Michael Moore's site where he provides sources for statements in the film...
http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/latestnews/f911facts/index.php?archive=show

[raven56706]

Here are some more facts on why his movie didnt change my decision.... courtesy from mikehunt here on dvd talk. He got it from the ABCnews website.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/This...re040620-1.html

Quoted from the ABCNEWS website:

MOORE: No, they were on charter flights. Once the airspace opened for commercial flights, they hadn't opened for the charter flights. And so the charter flights that picked up the bin Ladens around the country, that went to the various cities — this was all assisted by the White House, which really should be the real focus of this.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Well, but Richard Clarke, who's probably at the top of the White House enemy list, says that it was his decision, he takes responsibility for it. He doesn't think it was a mistake.

Another Quote from the ABCNEWS website:

STEPHANOPOULOS: You said you have one retired FBI agent in the movie, Jack Cloonan, I think his name is. But here's the 9/11 commission report. It says, "The FBI has concluded that nobody was allowed to depart on these six flights that the FBI wanted to interview in connection with the 9/11 attacks, or who the FBI later concluded had any involvement in those attacks. To date, we have uncovered no evidence to contradict those conclusions." Do you have any reason to doubt the credibility of the 9/11 commission?

Another Quote from the ABCNEWS website:

Congressman Flap

Stephanopoulos also asked Moore about a scene involving Rep. Mark Kennedy, R-Minn.

STEPHANOPOULOS: You have a scene when you're up on Capitol Hill encountering members of Congress, asking them if they would ask their sons and daughters to enlist … in the military. And one of those members of Congress who appears in the trailer, Mark Kennedy, said you left out what he told you, which is that he has two nephews serving in the military, one in Afghanistan. And he went on to say that, "Michael Moore doesn't always give the whole truth. He's a master of the misleading."

MOORE: Well, at the time, when we interviewed him, he didn't have any family members in Afghanistan. And when he saw the trailer for this movie, he issued a report to the press saying that he said that he had a kid in—

STEPHANOPOULOS: He said he told you he had two nephews.

MOORE: … No, he didn't. And we released the transcript and we put it on our Web site. This is what I mean by our war room. Any time a guy like this comes along and says, "I told him I had two nephews and one was going to Iraq and one was going to Afghanistan," he's lying. And I've got the raw footage and the transcript to prove it. So any time these Republicans come at me like this, this is exactly what they're going to get. And people can go to my Web site and read the transcript and read the truth. What he just said there, what you just quoted, is not true.

This Week followed up with the office of Rep. Kennedy. He did have two nephews in the military, but neither served in Iraq. Kennedy's staff agrees that Moore's Website is accurate but insists the movie version is misleading. In the film, Moore says, "Congressman, I'm trying to get members of Congress to get their kids to enlist in the Army and go over to Iraq." But, from the transcript, here's the rest:

MOORE: Is there any way you could help me with that?

KENNEDY: How would I help you?

MOORE: Pass it out to other members of Congress.

KENNEDY: I'd be happy to — especially those who voted for the war. I have a nephew on his way to Afghanistan.

[Iron_Giant]

My question is what, "What does Kerry stand for?".

[chess]

Originally posted by Iron_Giant
My question is what, "What does Kerry stand for?".

My answer is "Hopefully the opposite as Bush...as often as possible."

He stands for thoughtful discussions of the issues...of which there are always two sides. I suppose that makes him a flip flopper. :rolleyes:

He stands for the rights of the common man, not some neo-con trickle down wet dream.

He stands for moderation in foreign policy..."walking softly" if you will.

He stands for the rights of minorities, women, and gay people to be equal partners in our great democracy.

He stands for war as a last possible resort...because he's been there.

He stands for our government paying its way now...not leaving massive debt for our kids from optional wars, spending orgies, and tax cuts for the wealthy.

He stands for health care as a basic human right.

He is everything Bush isn't (except rich), which sounds just about perfect to me, and I can't wait to vote for him.

Thanks for asking.

[raven56706]

Originally posted by chess

He stands for war as a last possible resort...because he's been there.



Did you know that he voted for the war in Iraq as well?

He is very similar to Bush.

[chess]

Here's my question:

What is it with repubs and nuance?

Do you really think it was a one sentence document that he voted for? Check here if "for war", check here if "against"?

He voted to give the president the authority to declare war...to give him leverage with the U.N.

Kerry, along with most democrats was duped by a lying administration...which is almost as bad as voting for a BS war in my mind and is my one major beef with the man.

[raven56706]

Listen..... we can go back and forth on this but one thing is certain.....

Kerry is just like Bush... they both agree on many of the same issues....

I just cant see the difference.

[Sierra Disc]

Republicans don't seem to believe in nuance anymore. It doesn't matter if Bush lies about wmd, not being a "nation-builder" and so forth, as long as he looks tough saying it and constantly covers up his lies by talking about what a 'straight shooter' he is. God forbid we have a president who's actually capable of understanding the world isn't black and white.

[chess]

Originally posted by Sierra Disc
Republicans don't seem to believe in nuance anymore. It doesn't matter if Bush lies about wmd, not being a "nation-builder" and so forth, as long as he looks tough saying it and constantly covers up his lies by talking about what a 'straight shooter' he is. God forbid we have a president who's actually capable of understanding the world isn't black and white.

Thank you!

[Pharoh]

Originally posted by chess
My answer is "Hopefully the opposite as Bush...as often as possible."

He stands for thoughtful discussions of the issues...of which there are always two sides. I suppose that makes him a flip flopper. :rolleyes:

Thoughtful discussion does indeed not make one a flip-flopper. Changing one's stance to a diametrically opposed position for political expediency does however. I suppose whether Mr. Kerry does this is a matter of percption, another one of those "shades of gray."



He stands for the rights of the common man, not some neo-con trickle down wet dream.

Just to correct a small, but irksome, point, Neoconservatives by and large do not subscribe to Supply Side economics, or "trickle down" as it is derisively referred to here. Certainly not all of them, but a large number of those labeling themselves as Neoconservative are actually Keynesian in nature. Hell, some even have socialist tendencies.


He stands for moderation in foreign policy..."walking softly" if you will.

Is this why he has repeatedly voted for the use of military action? Make no mistake, when a member of Congress votes on a particular Bill authorizing military action, they know exactly what the end results are going to be.


He stands for the rights of minorities, women, and gay people to be equal partners in our great democracy.

Then why is he against gay people being allowed to be married? Doesn't sound like an equal rights guy to me.


He stands for war as a last possible resort...because he's been there.

Answered above.


He stands for our government paying its way now...not leaving massive debt for our kids from optional wars, spending orgies, and tax cuts for the wealthy.

His economic proposals are wrought with spending increases as well as tax increases for a variety of people, not just the wealthy. Nothing he has proposed by itself will decrease our debt.


He stands for health care as a basic human right.

Who doesn't? The level of care that all should receive is what is at issue, and more importanly, how to best achieve that end.


He is everything Bush isn't (except rich), which sounds just about perfect to me, and I can't wait to vote for him.

Thanks for asking.


As a great deal can't wait to do the opposite.

[Pharoh]

Originally posted by Sierra Disc
Republicans don't seem to believe in nuance anymore. It doesn't matter if Bush lies about wmd, not being a "nation-builder" and so forth, as long as he looks tough saying it and constantly covers up his lies by talking about what a 'straight shooter' he is. God forbid we have a president who's actually capable of understanding the world isn't black and white.


This whole thread really should be in Other.

That having been said, thanks for the characterisation! :up:

That is, after all, the only thing I look for in my President, the ability to talk and look tough. You nailed that one. I am also sorry that I am not able to see things as well as you are. Thanks for pointing out things that I can not otherwise see or comprehend.
:up:

[icruise]

Originally posted by raven56706
Did you know that he voted for the war in Iraq as well?

He is very similar to Bush.

I love it! First of all, everyone (with one courageous exception) voted for the war! Why? Partially because that was the way that public opinion was headed. But I dare say it was mostly because the White House said it had compelling evidence that Iraq not only aided terrorists, but had weapons of mass destruction poised to attack the US. And now the Republicans turn around and accuse Kerry of being twofaced. Unbelievable.

[nemein]

But I dare say it was mostly because the White House said it had compelling evidence that Iraq not only aided terrorists, but had weapons of mass destruction poised to attack the US.

As I understand it that same information was made available to those in congress.

[raven56706]

Hey... i may be a republican but i am open to both views.... but to say that Kerry will be a big saint if he wins the election is just very wrong. If kerry is such a great candidate for the office, then why does this election look so close?


This is why there is two sides to this election and why half the americans are either voting for bush and the other half Kerry.


Sorry back to Moore, there are alot of misleading things he says and many of his documentaries are against Americans to begin with.

[kcbrett5]

Originally posted by raven56706

Sorry back to Moore, there are alot of misleading things he says and many of his documentaries are against Americans to begin with.

He is not against America. He clearly cares very deeply for America or he wouldn't bother making documentaries.

You may disagree with his opinion but these sorts of statements are far too commonly used against him. "Michael Moore Hates America"...he is against Americans...If you believe in freedom, then you believe in Bush...etc.

The right wing of the Republican party has been doing this since Bush got elected. They oversimplify the issues and reduce everything to an emotional question and assume that they are on the right side. By doing that, you save yourself the trouble of putting any real thought into an issue. Sean Hannity is a master of this tactic.

[Chew]

Originally posted by kcbrett5
The right wing of the Republican party has been doing this since Bush got elected. They oversimplify the issues and reduce everything to an emotional question and assume that they are on the right side. By doing that, you save yourself the trouble of putting any real thought into an issue.

Those on the other side have the same opinion of liberals/Democrats. It's hardly a one-way street and why the country continues it's division.

[raven56706]

Lets see....

I will vote for Bush. That i will but i have not put him over here for nothing...Plus just because he makes these documentaries doesnt mean he loves America.

But it seems as though just because i dont fully agree with the things Michael moore says then that means that we dont hear anything else and that the right wing always says this and that and blah blah blah.... Come on give me a break.

Come on.... politics is politics.... Tell me again.... If Kerry is the answer to our country... Why is the American People so divided on who to pick?

[pro-bassoonist]

Originally posted by raven56706
f Kerry is the answer to our country... Why is the American People so divided on who to pick?

For the same reason(s) people were divided when they chose one of the greatest presidents this country has ever had- Kennedy.

Pro-B

[johnglad]

It is all about STEM CELL RESEARCH. Terrorism kills almost no one compared to heart disease, cancer, obesity, etc. We can save millions with real research to cure everyone. Bush is against it on religous reasons alone which ends all credibility with anyone that has a working brain and can think ahead. Most Republicans in the Senate and House are OPENLY in support of stem cell research. There is no controversy or debate with anyone who reads the facts. The next time anyone has a family member in horrible health will wonder "could we have saved them if we had been working this whole time?" 2 years WASTED already and with Bush re-elected 4 more go down the drain. You want to save lives, you do THIS. Kerry says he will put stem cell research into effect THE DAY he reaches office. That ends everything for me. There is no other issue on the spectrum that will help and effect more people in the long run. Just think about it.

[badger1997]

Stem cell research is one of the big reasons I will vote for Kerry and hope he wins. The man doesn't rule based off what religion tells him (although he is a religous man) but what is best scientifically and for the people.

I feel that Kerry won't do something like No Child Left Behind, which really does leave many children behind, and claim that it's in the best interest of everybody, then turns around and refuses to fund it.

Kerry won't be cutting things like Head Start that helps low-income families give their children a decent chance of suceeding in school. He will care more about someone like me who is struggling to make ends meet and doesn't ask for much, just the chance to have "affordable" health care offered to me. When you earn a two percent increase in your salary annually and then see your health insurance premiums go up by more than 10 percent each year, something is wrong. Bush just doesn't seem to recognize that or care.

I know Bush joked at the correspondent's dinner in the film that his base was the haves and the have mores. I realize he was cracking a joke, but for many of us that joke hits too close to reality.

[chess]

Originally posted by johnglad
It is all about STEM CELL RESEARCH. Terrorism kills almost no one compared to heart disease, cancer, obesity, etc. We can save millions with real research to cure everyone. Bush is against it on religous reasons alone which ends all credibility with anyone that has a working brain and can think ahead. Most Republicans in the Senate and House are OPENLY in support of stem cell research. There is no controversy or debate with anyone who reads the facts. The next time anyone has a family member in horrible health will wonder "could we have saved them if we had been working this whole time?" 2 years WASTED already and with Bush re-elected 4 more go down the drain. You want to save lives, you do THIS. Kerry says he will put stem cell research into effect THE DAY he reaches office. That ends everything for me. There is no other issue on the spectrum that will help and effect more people in the long run. Just think about it.

Hey, whatever floats your boat.

I'm a deficit hawk, a social liberal, and a foreign policy moderate myself, but everybody has a pet issue and I agree with yours 10000% even if jesus, moses, and the tabernacle choir told Bush it wasn't kosher in a vision.

For the poster who thinks Kerry should be baited into coming out for gay marriage, I say "no thanks" and so does he. I think that "live and let live" is the right (and American) thing to do, but I also think that joe public is clearly not on board yet. Kerry, has already come out in support of civil unions, which affords gay people their constitutionally protected (for the time being) right to equal protection.

Again, it comes back to nuance...which apparently cannot coexist with taking a stand...but don't get me started on THAT again.

Re: Macro-econ: If we're not practicing good, old-fashioned, deficit be damned, trickle-down, supply-side, voodoo, neocon, MFing reaganomics right now, then what exactly would you call it?

[Pharoh]

Originally posted by chess


Again, it comes back to nuance...which apparently cannot coexist with taking a stand...but don't get me started on THAT again.

I'll discuss nuances with you anytime you would like, at least on any issues that are important to both of us.



Re: Macro-econ: If we're not practicing good, old-fashioned, deficit be damned, trickle-down, supply-side, voodoo, neocon, MFing reaganomics right now, then what exactly would you call it?


The point is you are completely misusing the Neoconservative and are misrepresenting what Neoconservativism is. Again, Neoconservatives actually don't usually have much to say about economic matters at all. When they do the usually are not supply siders. Of course, one size does not fit all, Neocons most certainly do run the gamut. It is just that to align Neoconservativism with any economic theory or plan, let alone one like supply-side, is wrong.

As to what we are practicing right now, it is a mixture of some monetaris policies, pro-growth supply-side policies, and some good old-fashioned Keynesian policies, the type that most Democrats going all the way back to FDR are usually so fond of, the type that folks such as Senator Kerry economic advisof Gene Sperling are in favor of. In my decidedly pro-growth opinion, the current administration has in fact implemented way too many Keynesian policies, but that's just me.



Regardless, I do hope you all have enjoyed, or will enjoy, the film, even if it doesn't change any minds at all, from either side.

[pro-bassoonist]

Originally posted by badger1997
Stem cell research is one of the big reasons I will vote for Kerry and hope he wins. The man doesn't rule based off what religion tells him (although he is a religous man) but what is best scientifically and for the people.

I feel that Kerry won't do something like No Child Left Behind, which really does leave many children behind, and claim that it's in the best interest of everybody, then turns around and refuses to fund it.

Kerry won't be cutting things like Head Start that helps low-income families give their children a decent chance of suceeding in school. He will care more about someone like me who is struggling to make ends meet and doesn't ask for much, just the chance to have "affordable" health care offered to me. When you earn a two percent increase in your salary annually and then see your health insurance premiums go up by more than 10 percent each year, something is wrong. Bush just doesn't seem to recognize that or care.

I know Bush joked at the correspondent's dinner in the film that his base was the haves and the have mores. I realize he was cracking a joke, but for many of us that joke hits too close to reality.

You and I have almost identical opinions. Your remark about Bush's joke hitting too close to reality is what really left a bitter taste in me as well.

Very well said!! :up:

Pro-B

ps
Now....on a side note....GO BIG RED!! :D

[chess]

Ah, I see where you are going now. Neoconservative is more of a social/foreign policy position than an economic one. Assuming that is the case you are making, you're right, I am overgeneralizing. Ironically though, I fail to see the nuances in Bush's fiscal policy that you do. It just doesn't pass the duck test for me.

As far as nuance goes, I have no doubt that you get it. I just believe that the constant spinning has people thinking in 20 second soundbites about whether they are on the white side or the black side (bad choice of noncolors, but you get the point) and the fact is that most difficult issues are difficult by definition because they are gray. So somebody like Bush comes along who thinks he's a combination of moses and the marlboro man and speaks in 6 word sentences, and folks like him because he speaks their limited language and generally picks the majority side. Meanwhile, somebody like Kerry comes along, who has a career of thoughtful discourse and has to vote up or down on 200 page bills with multiple riders, and it's just impossible to do without making some compromises and seeing the nuances of issues. I mostly just think that it doesn't pay to be a legislator these days if you have other aspirations.

Anyway, I'm rambling now...should get to bed.

Final note: I don't think the film will change many minds per se, but it will motivate people who might not otherwise be motivated...namely the young. My theater was packed with kids who otherwise probably never considered voting, but absolutely will this year based on their reaction.

[Mad Dawg]

Originally posted by chess
Kerry, along with most democrats was duped by a lying administration...which is almost as bad as voting for a BS war in my mind and is my one major beef with the man.

You probably don't want to research the opinions Kerry had on Iraq and its threat-level prior to Bush's administration. I'll give you a hint, though. It blows the whole "Poor Sen. Kerry was fooled" nonsense out of the water.

[MegAat]

Nope!

I am still voting for the less of all evils... none. It doesn't matter who's in there they all suck!

But Bush has taken suck A$$ to a new level!

Not only does this guy not have a clue but looks it!!!!

Why doesn't he sends his daughters over to help his troops in IraQ?

[steebo777]

Nope, no change. Bush is still a moron.

[Iron_Giant]

Originally posted by chess
My answer is "Hopefully the opposite as Bush...as often as possible."

He stands for thoughtful discussions of the issues...of which there are always two sides. I suppose that makes him a flip flopper. :rolleyes:

He stands for the rights of the common man, not some neo-con trickle down wet dream.

He stands for moderation in foreign policy..."walking softly" if you will.

He stands for the rights of minorities, women, and gay people to be equal partners in our great democracy.

He stands for war as a last possible resort...because he's been there.

He stands for our government paying its way now...not leaving massive debt for our kids from optional wars, spending orgies, and tax cuts for the wealthy.

He stands for health care as a basic human right.

He is everything Bush isn't (except rich), which sounds just about perfect to me, and I can't wait to vote for him.

Thanks for asking.
I am someone who votes for the person that has the best "Real Ideas", not just general statements.

Example:
1. Health Care for everyone:
-How will we pay for it
-How will it be run
-How much heathcare will people get (when will a treatment be to much ???)
-More details would be awesome

2. War/Home Land Security...
-How would are shores be more secure
-How would we go after terrorist before the hit us
-Draft? I am not yes or no, it would be interesting to see how each one stands on the issue.

3. Economy/paying of the Gov debt
-What would their plans
-Goals

4. Any other issue they have a real plan for

Reagan and Clinton both said what they were going to do when they 1st took office and did. Right or wrong they did it. Niether of the currect candidates are giving us anything at this time.

I would like one website for each stating their stand on the issues and what they would do after taking office. Get rid of all the slamming ads and just give us what they believe in and what are they going to - then let us vote.

[chess]

Iron Giant,

I agree that Kerry could be presenting more specifics, but when you are running against somebody who screws something up every other day, it might just be a good strategy to present broad moderate ideas. If you don't like this method of campaigning, blame Bush.

In 2000, Bush 2 kept things vague and just watched Gore trip over himself. Kerry seems to have a similar strategy this year...for better or worse. It's not the type of campaign that appeals to me (or probably you), but it's been proven to work...ironically by Bush himself.

Clinton and Reagan, as you rightly pointed out had a much more focused message. Clinton in particular had very specific policy ideas that he could discuss at length off the top of his head. Bush 2 basically repeated the usual conservative mantras with that whole "compassionate" twist. The only specific I remember was his dislike of the surplus, which to his credit, he followed through on immediately by creating massive deficits.

Side note: Time permitting, I'd love to discuss healthcare policy sometime. I just finished a second Master's in healthcare administration from Baylor and I have several newly formed opinions on the subject. Bottom line: The eventuality of healthcare as a public system is inevitable. US businesses cannot compete with their labor costs and healthcare has never worked as a true market commodity. I'm leaning single payer myself, but the reality is that a regional managed competition system is much more likely.

[FatTony]

The film didn't change my opinion one bit. I still wouldn't vote for Bush if there was a gun against my head.

The only reason I have to flat-out not like Kerry is his disapproval of gay marriage. But even there, Bush has completely outdone himself by pushing to insert hate into the US constitution. At least Kerry realizes that is wrong.

[icruise]

I am convinced that the gay marriage issue has largely been manufactured by the republicans in attempt to paint the Democrats as loony left-wingers. That is to say, I think this sudden controversy right before the election is not an accident. So I think it's probably smart politics for Kerry to equivocate a bit with regard to the issue. I would prefer that he supported it outright (and I have a feeling Kerry would as well), but I'm sure he doesn't want to alienate those people who aren't comfortable with it. It's a little sad that it's necessary, but I think he's just being realistic. In any case, his position is a far sight better than Bush's.

[digitalfreaknyc]

Originally posted by icruise
I am convinced that the gay marriage issue has largely been manufactured by the republicans in attempt to paint the Democrats as loony left-wingers. That is to say, I think this sudden controversy right before the election is not an accident. So I think it's probably smart politics for Kerry to equivocate a bit with regard to the issue. I would prefer that he supported it outright (and I have a feeling Kerry would as well), but I'm sure he doesn't want to alienate those people who aren't comfortable with it. It's a little sad that it's necessary, but I think he's just being realistic. In any case, his position is a far sight better than Bush's.

FYI...Kerry is from MA. And if you've been following the "fight" you'll know that MA is a pretty popular place right now (for a good reason). :) Let's hope Kerry secretly feels the same.

[raven56706]

Originally posted by icruise
I am convinced that the gay marriage issue has largely been manufactured by the republicans in attempt to paint the Democrats as loony left-wingers. That is to say, I think this sudden controversy right before the election is not an accident. So I think it's probably smart politics for Kerry to equivocate a bit with regard to the issue. I would prefer that he supported it outright (and I have a feeling Kerry would as well), but I'm sure he doesn't want to alienate those people who aren't comfortable with it. It's a little sad that it's necessary, but I think he's just being realistic. In any case, his position is a far sight better than Bush's.

Do you think Kerry or any other president really gives a crap about the gay issue?

No way.... none will ever....

[digitalfreaknyc]

Originally posted by raven56706
Do you think Kerry or any other president really gives a crap about the gay issue?

No way.... none will ever....

Pick up a newspaper. It'll do ya good.

[Joem]

While this didn't change who I was voting for, it did 100% convince me to vote (I was a bit on the fence if I was this year).

-Joem

[chess]

Originally posted by Joem
While this didn't change who I was voting for, it did 100% convince me to vote (I was a bit on the fence if I was this year).

-Joem

And voting is half the battle. ;)

[Original Desmond]

i loved Bush before, now after seeing Fahrenheit 411, i want to have his baby!

i think it's just so sexy getting people killed for no reason, sexy as hell!

Go George W, you da man, you da man

[bhk]

I was going to vote for Bush, after seeing the movie, I am going to try to vote multiple times for Bush. Not only that, I am going to let my wife know that I would really, really, suggest she vote for Bush as well. Also, my parents just became naturalized citizens and they are voting for Bush as well. There was 1 vote for Bush in 2000 in our household(the others didn't vote) and in 2004, there will be 4.

[Josh H]

Nope. There's no circumstance that would ever get me to vote for Bush, so the movie obviously couldn't influence my decision as it was already made.

[raven56706]

Bush has my vote..... sorry but Kerry is boring.....


imagine seeing kerry giving a televized statement to america as president..... it would like watching the guy from Night Court addressing the nation.


At least bush talks funny and it is comedy....

BTW....... Moore put down america too much so he can @#$## my @#$@#.

[kcbrett5]

Originally posted by raven56706
Bush has my vote..... sorry but Kerry is boring.....


imagine seeing kerry giving a televized statement to america as president..... it would like watching the guy from Night Court addressing the nation.


At least bush talks funny and it is comedy....

BTW....... Moore put down america too much so he can @#$## my @#$@#.

You are voting for a guy because he talks funny and is less boring? And then you wan't us to care what you think about a film that makes people think about why they believe what they believe?

Quoth the raven, "Nevermore"

[raven56706]

lol........



kcbrett5...... dude.....it was a joke......

Still voting for Bush though...

[bhk]

I also plan to find a few homeless people, buy some cigs and some alcohol for them and take them to my voting place to cast their vote for Bush. I won't buy them drugs, after all, one has to draw the line somewhere.