http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00005JKGO.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

Studio: Koch Lorber Films
DVD Release Date: September 7, 2004
DVD Features:
- Commentary by Richard Schikel of TIME Magazine
- Collection of never-before-seen Fellini shorts
- "Remembering the Sweet Life": interviews with Marcello Mastroianni and Anita Ekberg
- "Cinecitta: The House of Fellini": interview with Fellini
- Eight-page collector's booklet with rare and hard-to-find photos from the set photographer
- Restoration demo
- Biographies
- Filmographies
- Photo gallery
- Widescreen anamorphic format
Number of discs: 2

I hadn't seen this posted from Amazon so I figured I'd post this.. One of my favorite films of all time and a long awaited DVD. Can't wait.

Looks great.

The coverwork looks decent. I own the Italian 2DVD-SE though and am pretty happy...

http://www.xploitedcinema.com/images/dvds/dolce_vita.jpg

However...I am quite a bit curious to see what the transfer of this edition will look like. Hopefully it is not a PAL to NTSC port....

Looking forward to it.....:up:

Pro-B

I am so ready for his...... thanks for the details!

im a big fellini fan but have never seen thsi. looking forward to it. im glad its not criterion so the pirce wont be crazy high

Can't wait. I too am glad it's not criterion. . .I need something affordable. I just hope the quality is great.

Originally posted by pro-bassoonist
The coverwork looks decent. I own the Italian 2DVD-SE though and am pretty happy...

http://www.xploitedcinema.com/images/dvds/dolce_vita.jpg

However...I am quite a bit curious to see what the transfer of this edition will look like. Hopefully it is not a PAL to NTSC port....

Looking forward to it.....:up:

Pro-B
I've also got the Italian DVD! Depending on the Video, I might have to Double Dip or Upgrade.

Looking good--I might have to put this on my "to buy" list.

Originally posted by whynotsmile
im a big fellini fan but have never seen thsi. looking forward to it. im glad its not criterion so the pirce wont be crazy high

This is only $5 cheaper than the average two disc Criterion.

I would gladly pay an extra $5 for a commentary by someone other than Schickel. His documentaries are very good, but I do not believe I have ever heard him give a decent commentary.

Fellow Fellini fans... don't forget Barnes & Noble's buy-2-get-1-free DVD sale going on during the entire month of June.

They have a great selection of Criterion discs, and I just picked up Amarcord (Criterion), 8 1/2 (Criterion), and La Strada (Criterion)... all 3 for $71 including tax.

I'm looking forward to getting La Dolce Vita. (and hopefully one day, City of Women).

Originally posted by theneobez
Can't wait. I too am glad it's not criterion. . .I need something affordable. I just hope the quality is great. I rather pay 3-5 (depending on the discount) dollar extra for consistently good dvds. I also hope this release will be great, but I'll never order this before reading some reviews.

For instance: Koch has the movie on this dvd listed as being 167 minutes, which is a few minutes too short. This could mean the transfer is derived from a PAL master and the dvd will therefor suffer from PAL speed-up and PAL-NTSC ghosting. And while I'm not greatly bothered by things like that, with Criterion you're more or less guaranteed this will not happen....

The runtime of the "Cinema Forever" DVD is listed by DVDBeaver as 2:47:01, which equals 167 min, right? Was that version too short?

no, it was PAL

Pro-B

Yeah I'd rather pay $5 more to know its coming from Criterion. I'll still pick it up.

Can someone please explain "PAL speedup" for me? I'm lost - don't understand why the format of the film would make a difference in its running time.

I'd love to find out how the Paramount/Koch Loeber R1 DVD rights dispute over this title was resolved... or, if it isn't,
if Paramount is still planning to release their La Dolce Vita disc(s).

Originally posted by lpetschauer
Can someone please explain "PAL speedup" for me? I'm lost - don't understand why the format of the film would make a difference in its running time.

PAL runs 4% faster....

Pro-B

Michael DVD (http://www.michaeldvd.com.au/Articles/PALSpeedUp/PALSpeedUp.asp) has a good explanation about the concept of PAL speed-up.

Highly anticipating this release. It's the last must-have Fellini classic I need.

If this is a PAL conversion all I have to say is --- NO WAY I'm buying the thing, with the R2 already in my hands.

At least when HD becomes a reality on DVD, we'll be rid of this supreme laziness of crap companies like ____ Lorber (or whatever the Lorber of the month is!), that do these PAL ports. I want my Nino Rota score and dubbed Italian dialogue at the right speed, not 4% faster (or a half step in pitch). If I want that, I can try and find a Chipmunks record!

Someone complained that Criterion would have been more expensive -- sure, that's true, but at least they would have done the damned thing in native NTSC!!

Originally posted by FilmFanSea
Michael DVD (http://www.michaeldvd.com.au/Articles/PALSpeedUp/PALSpeedUp.asp) has a good explanation about the concept of PAL speed-up. From that article:

Q:What Can Be Done About It?
A: There is very little that can be done about this issue at presentAs NTCS dvds can run at PAL speed, PAL dvds can also run at NTSC speed. However, this would induce the same ghosting artifacts as PAL-NTSC conversions.

I don't have any PAL discs, as I'm in R1, but in WinDVD there's an option for TruePAL, which, I assume, allows for that 4% and plays the film at the correct speed.

Love the movie.

But Koch and Lorber are two names in the DVD market that I trust the least. Can two horrible DVD manufacturers combine to make one decent DVD manufacturer? I hope so, but I'm waiting for reviews.

Love the movie. It's the last Fellini I need to make my collection complete...

BUT I'M NOT GOING THROUGH THE SAME PAL-NTSC CONVERSION HEADACHES I WENT THROUGH WITH "THE UMBRELLAS OF CHERBOURG".

This film is now available in a native NTSC version (Koch Lorber) but the preceding one (Fox Lorber) was a PAL-NTSC conversion. If you can imagine how grating the transposition of the entire sung filmscore to a half-tone higher can be... Not to mention the fact that the 4 % speedup of the action robs the film of a great deal of its poise, suspense and drama in ways that are more subconscious than not.

SO I NEED TO KNOW THE STATUS OF THIS NEW DVD BEFORE I BUY. PERIOD!

I guess I don't have to worry about how piss poor Richard Schikel's commentary will be since I won't be buying this PAL converted piece of shit.

Now I'm totally kicking myself for skipping this in revival not once, but twice in the last three months

Originally posted by FilmFanSea
Michael DVD (http://www.michaeldvd.com.au/Articles/PALSpeedUp/PALSpeedUp.asp) has a good explanation about the concept of PAL speed-up.

Thanks.

According to one of the members of the Criterion forum, it costs about $500 to do a decent PAL>NTSC port for a film.

I would wait and actually see the DVD before I slam any negative comments on it. I have yet to see some steady proof that this is indeed a PAL to NTSC port. Some here have responded with much anger yet I dont see why. Koch Lorber and Fox Lorber clearly have a different record as far as I am concerned.

So, wait...see the release and then decide for yourself. With this said the Italian disc is indeed SUPERB and in my opinion it will take a lot of effort to top it off.

:)

Cheers,
Pro-B

Originally posted by pro-bassoonist
I would wait and actually see the DVD before I slam any negative comments on it. I have yet to see some steady proof that this is indeed a PAL to NTSC port. Some here have responded with much anger yet I dont see why. Koch Lorber and Fox Lorber clearly have a different record as far as I am concerned.

So, wait...see the release and then decide for yourself. With this said the Italian disc is indeed SUPERB and in my opinion it will take a lot of effort to top it off.

:)

Cheers,
Pro-B

Fine words spoken by Pro-B... :thumbsup:

Originally posted by pro-bassoonist
I would wait and actually see the DVD before I slam any negative comments on it. I have yet to see some steady proof that this is indeed a PAL to NTSC port. Some here have responded with much anger yet I dont see why. Koch Lorber and Fox Lorber clearly have a different record as far as I am concerned.

So, wait...see the release and then decide for yourself. With this said the Italian disc is indeed SUPERB and in my opinion it will take a lot of effort to top it off.

:)

Cheers,
Pro-B
The Koch Lorber website (http://www.kochlorberfilms.com/product.asp?id=35) clearly gives a run-time of 167 minutes--hard to believe that a data entry error could result in an identical duration to that found in PAL territories (and exactly 96% of the actual run-time). Also, the only audio track listed is Dolby Digital 5.1, for this monaural film.

I would rather be proactive than take a "wait and see" attitude. I have sent Koch Lorber two different emails voicing my concerns about this release, and I encourage others to do the same. Since the release date is nearly 3 months off, there may still be time for KL to change the discs' contents if enough people complain. KL should also realize that, in this era of all-region players, consumers have an excellent alternative in the R2 PAL Italian release from Medusa. There's no excuse for this "marquee" release to be less than stellar.

Email: videosales@kochent.com

FilmFanSea,

I agree with the pro-active attitude and will also "promote" concern to Koch Lorber.
However.....
My earlier comment was rather dirrected to the harsh words some have slammed on Koch. I have a few of Koch's most recent releases and they are indeed not as poor as what Koch Lorber used to produce. Again, I would say it one more time...I see it as highly-inlikely that this R1 release could top off the Medusa presentation. Quite frankly no matter what the extras I am not going to upgrade though I am curious and therefore will rent this new edition when it comes out. But I do agree that foreign classics (and foreign cinema in general) does not get much respect from the DVD companies (sans Criterion).

Pro-B

If the extras on the Medusa release were subtitled, I would have bought it long ago. I'm hoping I won't have to own two copies of La Dolce vita--one with the proper audiovisual presentation; the other with extras I can understand. I really want Koch Lorber to get this right. Since they are aggressively buying the rights to films that might have fallen to Criterion in the past, I want them to distribute a good product. If their business plan calls for using PAL masters in order to decrease production costs, they won't be getting my business (I've taken the same attitude toward New Yorker's releases).

I have a few of Koch's most recent releases and they are indeed not as poor as what Koch Lorber used to produce.
Also, pro-B, it appeared from your comments that you're perhaps equating Fox Lorber (now Wellspring) with Koch Lorber (which was formed just a year ago, and which has released only about 20 DVDs thus far); they are separate companies which were both founded by Richard Lorber. I would also expect the quality of the Koch Lorber releases to exceed those from the other Koch subsidiaries. My apologies if I misread your comment.

Originally posted by pro-bassoonist
FilmFanSea,

My earlier comment was rather dirrected to the harsh words some have slammed on Koch. I have a few of Koch's most recent releases and they are indeed not as poor as what Koch Lorber used to produce.

Pro-B

No, actually I wanted to reiterate the fact that these are INDEED DIFFERENT companies (though they seem to share the dreaded Lorber name). So, I think that we are both on the same page here.

As to classic European films (La Dolce Vita being a perfect example) I have adopted a policy which I have been following for over 2 years now since I acquired my region-free player. When it comes to Italian/Spanish/French/Scandinavian films I always buy directly from the country of origin. The only country I have left out is Germany since they absolutely ignore the English speaking market!!

As you very well point out it seems like R1 companies tend to go the "cheap route" and use PAL ports for many of the foreign films that are released in the US (around 90%...excluding the Criterion treatment). For me this is unacceptable!! Yes, extras could be quite interesting but if the film presentation lacks proper treatment then.....everything else does not matter. (see recent The Son release).

Yes, the Medusa extras are not English friendly but trust me the film presentation is SUPERB!!

Pro-B

Originally posted by sracer
Fellow Fellini fans... don't forget Barnes & Noble's buy-2-get-1-free DVD sale going on during the entire month of June.

They have a great selection of Criterion discs, and I just picked up Amarcord (Criterion), 8 1/2 (Criterion), and La Strada (Criterion)... all 3 for $71 including tax.

I'm looking forward to getting La Dolce Vita. (and hopefully one day, City of Women).

How do you activate this deal? I would really like to take advantage of it but I don't see anything about it on their website. Do you need a coupon code or anything like that? Thanks.

Here's where I'm confused (sorry, guess I'm just slow): if the KL release has the same runtime as the Medusa disc, which is 94% of the correct run-time for the film, why is the Medusa disc better? It has the same speed-up problems that the KL disc allegedly will have, right?

Again, sorry if I'm being a big n00b...I just don't get it.

I good way to explain the disparity in quality is to focus on to the conversion from PAL to NTSC instead of using the original film source when producing a DVD.

The system which the Italian disc is encoded with- PAL- has nothing to do with what the picture quality is like. With other words they(Medusa) used a film source that was in great condition. KL would also have a great transfer if they used the film source directly not copy it so to speak. Do you follow me now? Tne issues many are concenred come from the improper tranfer of PAL to NTSC...that is where you see the "ghosting". Hope you understand this....You could have a great PAL source that when transfered directly to NTSC will have ghosting. OR....you could have a great NTSC source that will show "ghosting" when transfered improperly to PAL. This could occur both ways.

Also the primary source's quality does not affect the "ghosting" either. You could have a great source (PAL or NTSC) that will produce "ghosting" (PAL to NTSC ..or... NTSC to PAL) and you could also have a poor source (PAL or NTSC) that will again produce "ghosting" (PAL to NTSC ...or...NTSC to PAL). Bottom line such conversion should not be used for DVD production....it is improper, simple as that!! Even with the massive "adjustments" which nowadays you could offset the "ghosting" and pitch speed up of an improper trasnfer....I would always insist that a DVD should be produced based off of a film source. PERIOD!!

Hope you understand what I was trying to explain to you!!

Cheers,
Pro-B

ps
Last but not least the 4% "problems" you mention are in the heart of the great debate - PAL vs NTSC. Some regard it as a "problem" I dont. My stance has always been that you could detect the speed-up only if you listen to your native tongue (I would assume Engilsh) and have been exposed to the original film product sans the 4% speed-up. In a foreign tongue (and I do use my region-free player 99% for foreign European PAL releases) I would challenge anyone to prove to me that they could accurately detect the 4% disparity. In my opinion even if one has a perfect pitch one will be unable to detect a difference (imagine Japanese, Korean, Italian, French or whatever film obviously in a language you dont understand....how will you know/detect the speed-up??...the obertones, nasal vibrations, etc., ARE absolutely unique for each language).

Thanks for the very clear explanation ;), I get it now.

I'm a bit confused about the Medusa version as well.

So those of you who have the Medusa watch it converted from PAL to NTSC using a multi-region DVD player that does the conversion. Doesn't this also create ghosting, and aren't you still being effected by the 4% speed up?

Originally posted by Pants
Doesn't this also create ghosting,

NO

[i]
and aren't you still being effected by the 4% speed up? [/B]

YES


Pro-B

Hello From Koch Lorber (or whatever you are calling us today). It was suggested to me by a member of this board that I should sign on and try to answer as many questions as I could about the upcoming DVD release of La Dolce Vita. As the DVD producer on this project, I will try to answer as many questions as I can regarding the transfer, bonus features and restoration. After reading through the forum, here are the main concerns as I see them:

1) PAL/NTSC conversion. We did have to use a PAL master for the restoration, as all 35mm and NTSC materials that we located were of very poor quality. Painstaking efforts were made to ensure that the transfer effects were minimized and the results are fantastic. Technology has improved greatly since the Fox Lorber days (not affilated), so I believe that you will be satisfied with the results.

2) Mono. The original mono has been restored and will be available on the disc, as well a stereo and 5.1 track, with or without subititles (English or Spanish), which have also been completely redone.

3) Quality. We used the Medusa version as a guidline and I believe we have way surpassed the quality. The Medusa version has many audio drops and spots of film dirt, which have all been removed in our version, as well as large portions of the film that are completely out of synch (check out Emma slamming the car door on Marcello after the Madonna scene and you'll get the idea) which we have made painstaking efforts to correct. We are still in the final stages of encoding, but I believe the finished product will be far superior to any DVD version of this on the market.

4) Schikel. Richard is not only an authority on Italian neo-realism, but also a film restoration expert as well (he is currently restoring Sam Fuller's The Big Red One), which makes him uniquely qualified for this commentary. To round out the experts in the package, we have included liner notes from Dennis Bartok of American Cinemateque and a filmed introduction by Alexander Payne.

5) The bonus features. We tried to give good value to the set, so we added a lot of material that has not seen the light of day here in the States, including Fellini TV, a collection of surrealist shorts done by Fellini over the years to run as commercials on Italian TV.

I hope that this e-mail answers some of your questions. If you have any thing else you would like to ask, feel free to do so and I will try to answer as quickly as possible. This has been a labor of love here at KLF for well over a year, and I hope you all enjoy seeing it as much as we have enjoyed working on it.

Best,

tim

Originally posted by tim hinsley
Hello From Koch Lorber (or whatever you are calling us today). It was suggested to me by a member of this board that I should sign on and try to answer as many questions as I could about the upcoming DVD release of La Dolce Vita. As the DVD producer on this project, I will try to answer as many questions as I can regarding the transfer, bonus features and restoration. After reading through the forum, here are the main concerns as I see them:

1) PAL/NTSC conversion. We did have to use a PAL master for the restoration, as all 35mm and NTSC materials that we located were of very poor quality. Painstaking efforts were made to ensure that the transfer effects were minimized and the results are fantastic. Technology has improved greatly since the Fox Lorber days (not affilated), so I believe that you will be satisfied with the results.

2) Mono. The original mono has been restored and will be available on the disc, as well a stereo and 5.1 track, with or without subititles (English or Spanish), which have also been completely redone.

3) Quality. We used the Medusa version as a guidline and I believe we have way surpassed the quality. The Medusa version has many audio drops and spots of film dirt, which have all been removed in our version, as well as large portions of the film that are completely out of synch (check out Emma slamming the car door on Marcello after the Madonna scene and you'll get the idea) which we have made painstaking efforts to correct. We are still in the final stages of encoding, but I believe the finished product will be far superior to any DVD version of this on the market.

4) Schikel. Richard is not only an authority on Italian neo-realism, but also a film restoration expert as well (he is currently restoring Sam Fuller's The Big Red One), which makes him uniquely qualified for this commentary. To round out the experts in the package, we have included liner notes from Dennis Bartok of American Cinemateque and a filmed introduction by Alexander Payne.

5) The bonus features. We tried to give good value to the set, so we added a lot of material that has not seen the light of day here in the States, including Fellini TV, a collection of surrealist shorts done by Fellini over the years to run as commercials on Italian TV.

I hope that this e-mail answers some of your questions. If you have any thing else you would like to ask, feel free to do so and I will try to answer as quickly as possible. This has been a labor of love here at KLF for well over a year, and I hope you all enjoy seeing it as much as we have enjoyed working on it.

Best,

tim


:jawdrop:

So... Can I get a complimentary copy to compare to my Medusa DVD???

:)

How would I make up all the cost if I gave away complimentary copies ;-)

tim

While we're on the topic...Mr. Hinsley, can you comment on the upcoming release of The Tree of Wooden Clogs, which also seems to be a PAL transfer?

I'm relieved that Koch Lorber is atleast attempting to do a proper PAL transfer; and it can be done, from my understanding...its just dissapointing that the best materials available are PAL, though. But since the DVD producer is actually taking his time to talk on this board, I'm going to be a little less skeptical than I would of, say, Paramount, or that Superbit company, or whoever it was that wanted to release this on DVD. I'm still going to be a little bit of a skeptic, but I think that's understandable, considering how PAL transfers have marred various Kino, Milestone and even a couple of Warner Brothers DVDs.

I'm also glad the mono will be included. Whew.

Tim:

Thanks very much for your comments in this thread. Reliable information about upcoming releases can be difficult to come by, so we are often forced to read between the lines of the "specs." With the notable exception of Criterion, classic foreign films have received mostly indifferent--and occasionally criminal--presentations on Region 1 DVDs, so many of us have come to expect the worst. You've allayed many of my fears about this release, which I now feel confident enough to preorder. As I've said before, I'm rooting for Koch Lorber to produce a stellar La Dolce vita. Your comments are always welcome here.

One question: Are you referring to Richard Schickel--the film critic for Time magazine--as the commentator on this DVD? (His name is also spelled Schikel on the KL website, which I believe is an error.)

I would also suggest that the specs which appear on the Koch Lorber website (particularly with respect to the audio tracks) be corrected to reduce further confusion.

Brian Burke



Originally posted by tim hinsley
Hello From Koch Lorber (or whatever you are calling us today). It was suggested to me by a member of this board that I should sign on and try to answer as many questions as I could about the upcoming DVD release of La Dolce Vita. As the DVD producer on this project, I will try to answer as many questions as I can regarding the transfer, bonus features and restoration. After reading through the forum, here are the main concerns as I see them:

1) PAL/NTSC conversion. We did have to use a PAL master for the restoration, as all 35mm and NTSC materials that we located were of very poor quality. Painstaking efforts were made to ensure that the transfer effects were minimized and the results are fantastic. Technology has improved greatly since the Fox Lorber days (not affilated), so I believe that you will be satisfied with the results.

2) Mono. The original mono has been restored and will be available on the disc, as well a stereo and 5.1 track, with or without subititles (English or Spanish), which have also been completely redone.

3) Quality. We used the Medusa version as a guidline and I believe we have way surpassed the quality. The Medusa version has many audio drops and spots of film dirt, which have all been removed in our version, as well as large portions of the film that are completely out of synch (check out Emma slamming the car door on Marcello after the Madonna scene and you'll get the idea) which we have made painstaking efforts to correct. We are still in the final stages of encoding, but I believe the finished product will be far superior to any DVD version of this on the market.

4) Schikel. Richard is not only an authority on Italian neo-realism, but also a film restoration expert as well (he is currently restoring Sam Fuller's The Big Red One), which makes him uniquely qualified for this commentary. To round out the experts in the package, we have included liner notes from Dennis Bartok of American Cinemateque and a filmed introduction by Alexander Payne.

5) The bonus features. We tried to give good value to the set, so we added a lot of material that has not seen the light of day here in the States, including Fellini TV, a collection of surrealist shorts done by Fellini over the years to run as commercials on Italian TV.

I hope that this e-mail answers some of your questions. If you have any thing else you would like to ask, feel free to do so and I will try to answer as quickly as possible. This has been a labor of love here at KLF for well over a year, and I hope you all enjoy seeing it as much as we have enjoyed working on it.

Best,

tim

I think all of us are hoping that the Koch-Lorber LA DOLCE VITA disc will be a first-class product. And that many others will follow!

I pre-ordered LA DOLCE VITA a while ago (as a Fellini diehard, I could do little else) but must admit I had my fingers crossed at the time. It's gratifying to hear somebody is giving this much-anticipated release the TLC it deserves.

Originally posted by tim hinsley
Hello From Koch Lorber (or whatever you are calling us today).

rotfl We've just been Koch blocked!

I too am looking forward to La Dolce Vita. I already have mine pre ordered and I would like to thank Tim for taking time to share with us some details of the upcoming DVD. I wish there were more folks at other studios willing to do the same and realize that there are alot of us movie diehards out there, we all are not just Wal-Mart (Full Screen) buying fools. I hope Tim will continue to hang out here once in awhile and update us on more future releases as they are announced. I hope Koch Lorber will put out a fine product and continue to do so in the future.

Originally posted by Pants
I guess I don't have to worry about how piss poor Richard Schikel's commentary will be since I won't be buying this PAL converted piece of shit.

Now I'm totally kicking myself for skipping this in revival not once, but twice in the last three months

Take a pill, it might help your whining.

Honestly, you'd think it was a matter of life or death.

Kudos for the Koch rep. coming on the forum!

You are correct about Schickel, mistake on my part in the e-mail. The KL site was to be fixed weeks ago (web masters!)

Generally on foreign films, we are at the mercy of the copyright holders for materials. We are increasingly getting 35mm masters and doing our own conversions (in anticipation of HD). Unfortunately on La Dolce, that was not in the cards.

I'm glad that you enjoyed Umbrellas, it was great to work with Anges Varda. We are hoping to announce another collaboration with the Demy estate in the very near future.

When I made the thread I certainly wasn't expecting to see a company representative speak on it. I would like to thank him for coming on to discuss one of my most looking forward to DVD's and whomever asked him the questions of the PAL issue as that was something I personally was unaware of. Insightful thread.

Originally posted by tim hinsley
I'm glad that you enjoyed Umbrellas, it was great to work with Anges Varda. We are hoping to announce another collaboration with the Demy estate in the very near future.

I believe I'm the one who mentioned your version of Umbrellas of Cherbourg, which is a superlative product.

If I understand you correctly, PAL-NTSC problems can be surmounted in such a way that the final transfer produces a correct speed rate without ghosting. Feel free to elaborate on technical advances you know about that we don't.

I had a feeling these problems were not terminal. It's just that nobody ever goes to any length to correct them in our material world.

I am looking forward to La Dolce Vita and the Fellini TV extras sound terrific.

I'm very happy to see a representative from the company on here to clarify some issues. Correct me if I'm wrong:

Koch Lorber can only present what the rights holders give them. So if the rights holders only have a PAL master to give you, then that's all you've got and that's all you can release. You make an NTSC transfer from that PAL master. In the case of La Dolce Vita you can't get the original 35mm elements from the rights holders to do a proper NTSC transfer, so instead you do a PAL conversion.

Will La Dolce Vita, as released in R1 by Koch Lorber, be 4% shorter?
Will La Dolce Vita, as released in R1 by Koch Lorber, have the sound pitched slightly higer due to this speed up?

Without being a member of the Koch company I can assure you that:

1. Yes
2. Yes

Format conversion and sourcing are two different areas. Unless the NTSC version is directly sourced from the original film negative the above mentioned issues will appear. Slight adjustments could be made however "ghosting" will still be present.

Pro-B

La Dolce Vita was most likely shot at 25fps, like most European films. In which case, the shorter version is the actual original running time.

Originally posted by JayHM
La Dolce Vita was most likely shot at 25fps, like most European films. In which case, the shorter version is the actual original running time.
No--all modern films are shot to run at 24fps. The 25fps is the PAL television standard, whereas the NTSC standard is 30fps.

Can anybody here comment on the image quality of the Korean edition:

http://www.dvdasian.com/cgi-bin/dvdasian/16871.html?id=mMgwvuyY

Originally posted by skatefan20
Can anybody here comment on the image quality of the Korean edition:

http://www.dvdasian.com/cgi-bin/dvdasian/16871.html?id=mMgwvuyY

poor. Avoid.

Pro-B

Originally posted by pro-bassoonist
Without being a member of the Koch company I can assure you that:

1. Yes
2. Yes

Format conversion and sourcing are two different areas. Unless the NTSC version is directly sourced from the original film negative the above mentioned issues will appear. Slight adjustments could be made however "ghosting" will still be present.

Pro-B

My two cents: If the PAL original has the 24 discrete images per second of the original film in superior PAL resolution (plus one extra frame per second when played back in PAL), it is theoretically possible to do a transfer from this source just as it would be from the 24 frames per second of a regular film source with "today's improving technology". It's a question of tweaking the 3-to-2 pulldown, just as you would with film to make 24 images fit the 30 images per second of NTSC.

I think that's what the nice man from Koch was trying to say but didn't actually say and I sure wish he would say it.

Originally posted by JayHM
La Dolce Vita was most likely shot at 25fps, like most European films. In which case, the shorter version is the actual original running time. That would also mean that most Criterion releases of European films (8 1/2 and their other Fellini dvds for instance) are transferred at the wrong speed without anybody ever noticing?

Now that would be funny, but I think FilmFanSea is right.....

Tim Hinsley wrote:
PAL/NTSC conversion. We did have to use a PAL master for the restoration, as all 35mm and NTSC materials that we located were of very poor quality.Couldn't the material that the PAL masters were made from be used?

Thanks for the input.

Originally posted by pro-bassoonist
Without being a member of the Koch company I can assure you that:

1. Yes
2. Yes

Format conversion and sourcing are two different areas. Unless the NTSC version is directly sourced from the original film negative the above mentioned issues will appear. Slight adjustments could be made however "ghosting" will still be present.

Pro-B

I have just e-mailed Mr. Hinsley with these very questions. Let's await his answer, shall we?

Originally posted by baracine
My two cents: If the PAL original has the 24 discrete images per second of the original film in superior PAL resolution (plus one extra frame per seconf when played back in PAL, it is theoretically possible to do a transfer from this source just as it would be from the 24 frames per second of a regular film source with "today's improving technology". It's a question of tweaking the 3-to-2 pulldown, just as you would with film to make 24 images fit the 30 images per second of NTSC. I also wondered if this was possible. It seems theoretically possible to re-assemble each frame and then transfer the whole thing at the correct speed. There is no actual material lost when transferring a movie to video, is there?

Originally posted by Mark_vdH
There is no actual material lost when transferring a movie to video, is there?

Well, yes, there is. As was mentioned before, film is an analog medium that has a greater resolution than at least normal commercial video. A copy is still only a copy, unless you get into the sphere of High Definition video. The best thing you can do is hope to approximate the original image and problems always subsist, like the "jigger" (irregular) motion of travelings (panning) in NTSC and the 4 % speeded-up rate of PAL.

Having said this, each individual frame of PAL (composed of two screen replenishes of 1/50th of a second each) contains the available information of a single frame of film in a format that has more resolution per frame than in NTSC, where the notion of "an individual frame of film" is problematic since the conversion of 24 frames per second into 30 frames per second (60 replenishes per second) necessitates a manipulation called a pulldown, of which there are several different varieties, each claiming to be better than the other but each presenting at least a few blurred (or repeating) frames per second.

So, all things considered, PAL is the ideal video format for preserving the information of each individual frame of a film, even though it is projected at a 4 % speed-up. Simply slowing down this speed during transfer to NTSC produces ghosting but, like I said, why would it not be possible to recreate the original 24 frames per second film from the individual higher resolution PAL frames and then transfer it to NTSC in the regular film-to-video fashion?

Originally posted by FilmFanSea
No--all modern films are shot to run at 24fps. The 25fps is the PAL television standard, whereas the NTSC standard is 30fps.
To expand on my earlier comments (which JayHM ridiculed in a subsequent post, which has since been deleted): What I meant by "modern" was 'after the Silent Era' (when the exposure time was quite variable; 24 fps became the standard for sound films).

I understand that many European television productions are shot at 25fps, to ease the transition to the PAL format but AFAIK, European feature films are still shot and projected at the 24fps standard.

References:

Motion Picture Editor's Guild Magazine (http://www.editorsguild.com/newsletter/MarApr02/tip_pal_murray.html):Overseas television producers run film cameras at 25 fps, do their post production at 25 fps and deliver PAL. But features are more complicated because they’re shot and projected at 24 fps.

How Film Is Transferred to Video (http://www.cs.tut.fi/~leopold/Ld/FilmToVideo/) With very few exceptions, non-silent films run with a speed of 24 fps (frames per second).

I am certainly no expert in this area: I've never been to film school; I've neither shot nor projected a film either here or abroad. But from everything I've read, a European feature film from 1960 would have been shot and projected at a sync speed of 24fps. (Besides, why would Fellini have given a damn about the PAL television standard, anyway? I doubt he would've approved of seeing his beautiful mise-en-scène butchered through panning & scanning on small Italian televisions, so why shoot his films at a sync speed to make that process easier? Makes no sense.)

If the European sync speed standard has indeed changed to 25fps for theatrically projected feature films more recently, I would be interested to know the details (e.g. when the transition occurred).

Originally posted by FilmFanSea
I am certainly no expert in this area: I've never been to film school; I've neither shot nor projected a film either here or abroad. But from everything I've read, a European feature film from 1960 would have been shot and projected at a sync speed of 24fps.

You are correct. Theatrical film production since the sound era began has been 24fps in all countries (except for Imax and other specialty formats, but that is another matter entirely). La Dolce Vita was shot at 24fps, just as a European feature film from last year would be. 25fps is only used for direct-to-TV European productions.

And I DID go to film school, and you can blame one of my film professors for the misinformation. (I'm glad the internet is a more accurate source of info than a $100,000 education...)

Originally posted by JayHM
And I DID go to film school, and you can blame one of my film professors for the misinformation. (I'm glad the internet is a more accurate source of info than a $100,000 education...)
I'd sue if I were you, Jay. :)
No problem--thanks for posting the follow-up.

Brian

PAGING MR. HINSLEY! :wave: (Is this thing on?)

Mr Hinsely will be out on vacation until Wednesday.

Originally posted by pro-bassoonist

Last but not least the 4% "problems" you mention are in the heart of the great debate - PAL vs NTSC. Some regard it as a "problem" I dont. My stance has always been that you could detect the speed-up only if you listen to your native tongue (I would assume Engilsh) and have been exposed to the original film product sans the 4% speed-up. . In my opinion even if one has a perfect pitch one will be unable to detect a difference (imagine Japanese, Korean, Italian, French or whatever film obviously in a language you dont understand....how will you know/detect the speed-up??...the obertones, nasal vibrations, etc., ARE absolutely unique for each language).

Well, I do have perfect pitch, and in this case I have frequently listened to the soundtrack, and I'm a BIG Nino Rota fan, so it's one of those cases where the MUSIC being 1/2 step high drives me nuts! Same with the R2 of THE LEOPARD, which is one reason I got the Criterion (it also has better audio, thank god). I have the Medusa, and I'll be damned if I will buy another copy that's sharp in pitch. Criterion, god bless them, has avoided this problem. Hopefully, not too many others share my curse on this one!

Am I correct in assuming that if and when HD on disc becomes a reality this whole issue of conversion speedup (and ghosting) will go away (along with the rest of my life savings)?

I dont see how my post above which you have quoted states an opinion that disproves anything you have to say here. I did mention that there are 2 specific ways for anyone to detect the pitch correction-

1.If one has been exposed to a film source not affected by PAL conversion for a long period of time

2. The film happens to be in your native tongue and one has AGAIN been exposed to it for a long period of time hence knowing the obertones, specific pitch frequency, etc...

I am also with a perfect pitch and can recognize the orchestral standard of 440-436.

With this said I challenge you to listen to visiting European orchestras (if you happen to be in Chicago, LA, NY,Boston) they all perform at 441-444 pitch base. American orchestras perform at 338 often even lower. Not once have I heard someone complaining about the pitch difference. Keep in mind that a difference of 436-442 equates in a much bigger discrepancy than what you would encounter in a PAL to NTSC conversion which is arguably around 4%.

Pro-B

Originally posted by baracine
PAGING MR. HINSLEY! :wave: (Is this thing on?)

Hello Baracine,

what questions do you have?


Couldn't the material that the PAL masters were made from be used?

Thanks for the input. [/B][/QUOTE]

As Tim mentioned before me, unfortunately, we only had the PAL master to work from.

The only 35 mm print we had access to was a different cut of the movie and there were scenes missing not to mention it was in horrible shape.

I realise I'm coming into this a little late...

Glad to hear that this is FINALLY coming to a decent quality DVD.

It's unfortunate that only a PAL master was available.

Hopefully it won't look too awful, but I may give this a rental before deciding on a purchase. I wasn't happy at all with Umbrellas of Cherbourg, which I believe was also converted from a PAL master?

Mostly my dissatisfaction with the new version of UoC (as opposed to the horrible looking Fox Lorber version from a few years ago) has to do with not including the original audio, and the lack of extras. A commentary would have been nice, and there are many facets of the film that could have been explored in featurettes.

In any case, I'm aware of the problems inherent in transfering a 25fps PAL telecine to a 29.97fps NTSC (NTSC isn't really quite 30fps, which makes for other fun problems) and hope that ghosting and jitter can be reduced to the point where it doesn't distract from the presentation.

If you've ever seen a PAL->NTSC conversion transfer generally the entire film is basically unwatchable and looks more like video than film - see the TLA version of "The Pianist" for a worst-case scenario of this effect.

Anyway, I trust that you'll do what you can to make the disc at least *watchable* without causing a seizure from the jitter, and I must thank you for including the original mono sound track. The lack of the original ST on the Cherbourg disc was irksome - I bought it, but I questioned whether I'd ever buy another Koch Lorber release again.

So I'm wary, now. That Koch name has a bad bad reputation in this business.

Originally posted by jough
I wasn't happy at all with Umbrellas of Cherbourg, which I believe was also converted from a PAL master?

Mostly my dissatisfaction with the new version of UoC (as opposed to the horrible looking Fox Lorber version from a few years ago) has to do with not including the original audio, and the lack of extras. A commentary would have been nice, and there are many facets of the film that could have been explored in featurettes.

The lack of the original ST on the Cherbourg disc was irksome - I bought it, but I questioned whether I'd ever buy another Koch Lorber release again.


I cannot speak for the FOXLORBER release but I can comment on the KLF release of UOC.

We worked directly w/Eclair Labs in France. Agnes Varda was nice enough to make a 35 mm print available to us. Eclair Labs did major restoration work on the print and then went straight to NTSC Digibeta and did yet more work to clean things up.

As for the audio, the original mono track was transferred directly from the print. And that is what's on the DVD along with a 5.1 mix we had done at another facility. There was supposed to be a stereo track but Eclair Labs never delivered it. i found this out after that fact when the DVD was a week from release and Agnes called me to see if we could delay the release as our master only had the mono on not stereo. Apparently she origanally requested that Eclair labs provide it and they never did.

All of the work at Eclair Labs was done under the watchful eyes and with the final approval of Agnes Varda.

As for the extras, we tried to get more content but were unfortunately not able to secure anything in a timely manner.

We were bound by contract release thew film with in a specified amount of time and so we moved forward with what we had.

Originally posted by V Morante
Hello Baracine,
what questions do you have?


My main question is: Will there be a 4 % speed-up or not?

Originally posted by pro-bassoonist
The coverwork looks decent. I own the Italian 2DVD-SE though and am pretty happy...

http://www.xploitedcinema.com/images/dvds/dolce_vita.jpg

However...I am quite a bit curious to see what the transfer of this edition will look like. Hopefully it is not a PAL to NTSC port....

Looking forward to it.....:up:

Pro-B

I have the Italian disc as well. I will probably double dip and purchase this one as well.

Originally posted by pro-bassoonist
With this said I challenge you to listen to visiting European orchestras (if you happen to be in Chicago, LA, NY,Boston) they all perform at 441-444 pitch base. American orchestras perform at 338 often even lower. Not once have I heard someone complaining about the pitch difference. Keep in mind that a difference of 436-442 equates in a much bigger discrepancy than what you would encounter in a PAL to NTSC conversion which is arguably around 4%.

Pro-B

I'm not in disagreement -- most PAL discs I have without having prolonged exposure to the musical scores don't affect me in any discernable way. I'm just not happy that THIS film of all films, that WILL affect me will be sped up -- I know so because I cringed when I first put the Medusa disc on. I can't say I'm (knowingly) exposed to an A of less than 440 too often, but I'm certainly aware of the higher A of many European orchestras -- even so, the range we're talking about is less than a 1/2 step from 440-- which is what the PAL speedup raises things. As a pianist working mostly with string players, there seems to be an epidemic of them trying to tune sharp to the piano-- maybe that's why it bugs me!! At least I'm not subjected to an orchestra where the oboe gives a low A and the Strings tune high -- I hope you're not either!

If I buy a cd of a recording from the analog era, and it's been remastered so that it's a half step off, I think I have the right to be upset, and I certainly notice the problem. Obviously I'm less prone to react the same way to film soundtracks, but this is one of them.

As per previous posts from MR Hinsley (and me), we only had the PAL master to work from. Therehore you know better than I that the PAL speed-up is presentin our version just like it is in the Medusa version.

It is unfortunate that we did not have better source material but we worked with what we were able to obtain from the rights holder

Hope this helps.

Originally posted by V Morante
As per previous posts from MR Hinsley (and me), we only had the PAL master to work from. Therehore you know better than I that the PAL speed-up is presentin our version just like it is in the Medusa version.

It is unfortunate that we did not have better source material but we worked with what we were able to obtain from the rights holder

Hope this helps.

That is very, very unfortunate. I was hoping that new advances in technology would have made it possible to transfer a PAL master into NTSC without the 4 % speed-up or ghosting.

Apparently not.:mad: Maybe the film should be retitled Fellini's 96/100.

I, for one, am extremely happy to finally have a region 1 release of this film. Am I happy that it's sped up by 4%? Of course not, but I'd much rather have a good sped up PAL transfer than an inferior/incomplete NTSC version.

I was very pleased with the work Koch Lorber did on the Umbrellas of Cherbourg release, and look forward to adding La Dolce Vita to my collection as well.

According to a post over at HTF (http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htforum/showthread.php?postid=2266979#post2266979), one possible reason that the pristine 35mm print shown here theatrically was not available to KLF is that it is owned by Paramount.

I work in film post-production and have often had to deal with the PAL/NTSC problems. It used to be a real pain, but recently we have been making something called Slow PAL conversions. This is basically what was suggeted earlier: each PAL frame is treated as a film frame and converted with the usual 3:2 pulldown. This solves the problems listed above.

I don't understand why a dvd company that clearly is interested in putting out the highest quality disk would not use this technique. It does need to be done digitally, but it doesn't have to be too expensive. You can load the PAL master into an Avid Symphony with no compression and then output a version at the corrected rate in about six hours total (since it's a long film). I do the same thing on a standard Avid film composer all the time - although the best it will do is 14:1 compression.

Sometimes I am amazed by how technical these discussions become.

Ugh. Yeah, it sounds like Koch doesn't have the budget to invest in an Avid Symphony or the equipment necessary to re-sequence PAL transfers to the NTSC frame rate.

I think I'm going to pass on this release based on what I've read here. It's a damn shame, because this is one of my most anticipated titles. If I'm going to have to deal with PAL speedup I may as well just get the R2 version that's natively PAL - at least I won't have to deal with the ghosting that the NTSC conversion will introduce.

Originally posted by jough

If I'm going to have to deal with PAL speedup I may as well just get the R2 version that's natively PAL - at least I won't have to deal with the ghosting that the NTSC conversion will introduce.

Agreed. I am however looking forward to the extras provided on the R1 disc.

Pro-B

Yes, I will rent the extras disc from Netflix.

You guys are hilarious.

I remember when I had an old worn-down VHS of LaDolceVita in pan-'n-scan, no less and I still loved it. I was just happy with what I could get. And I'll be happy with a PAL to NTSC conversion as well. Is it perfect? no, but my god, it's freaking good enough to enjoy the movie all the same.

My point is that there's already a PAL version out that looks really good from Medusa.

The R1 version will probably look much like this, only with ghosting and jitter added!

So I guess I'll buy the R2 and rent the bonus disc of the R1 for the extras. I'd much rather buy the R1 from Koch but as I said, unless reviews are really good, what I've heard here will not encourage me to pre-order this title.

Originally posted by slop101
I remember when I had an old worn-down VHS of LaDolceVita in pan-'n-scan, no less and I still loved it. I was just happy with what I could get.

I've seen the movie 3 times theatrically (a couple of local art house theaters used to have a very nice print that they passed back and forth). I swore I would never watch the movie on home video in pan & scan. I just couldn't bear to think of it. I'd rather never see the movie again and just live with my memories of it.

It wasn't until the Medusa disc that I was satisfied that I could finally watch the movie at home.

Originally posted by slop101
You guys are hilarious.

I remember when I had an old worn-down VHS of LaDolceVita in pan-'n-scan, no less and I still loved it. I was just happy with what I could get. And I'll be happy with a PAL to NTSC conversion as well. Is it perfect? no, but my god, it's freaking good enough to enjoy the movie all the same.

I'd rather live with my theatre memories of La Dolce Vita and the occasional TV presentation. I 'm actually starting to feel sorry for the European cinephiles who have to watch every friggin' film classic on DVD in a 4 % speeded up version! I think it demeans cinema.

Mind you, the first time I saw Vertigo was during a Jesuit college film appreciation class and they had it in a black and white 16 mm version. It still made me fall out of my seat. I didn't know until years later it was shot in colour... BUT WE ALL GROW UP!!!

Originally posted by slop101
You guys are hilarious.

I remember when I had an old worn-down VHS of LaDolceVita in pan-'n-scan, no less and I still loved it. I was just happy with what I could get. And I'll be happy with a PAL to NTSC conversion as well. Is it perfect? no, but my god, it's freaking good enough to enjoy the movie all the same.

So glad we amuse. It's nice to hear from Madacy's quality control department, at long last.

First, I would like to thank the representatives from Koch Lorber for coming on the board and offering input.

Nevertheless, I will have to politely decline the purchase of La Dolce Vita. There are so many other films out there on DVD that I love which have been treated properly that I'll always choose to pick one of them up instead of a film with a less than perfect transfer. I'm willing to wait unitll someone transfers it properly. Nice try guys ;)

In the new brochure announcing (NYC's) Film Forum's Summer/Fall Screening Schedule (http://www.filmforum.com/pdf/ff2_2004SummerCal_final.pdf), they advertise a "NEW 35mm PRINT!" for the July 23rd-August 5th run of La Dolce vita.

At the bottom of the listing are the words A PARAMOUNT RELEASE.

So, if Paramount holds both theatrical distribution rights and video distribution rights*, we very well could see a Paramount DVD (which would undoubtedly derive from an NTSC master using the elements utilized for the new 35mm print). This may also explain why Koch Lorber had no access to the best elements for their transfer. Stay tuned ...


* It's unclear to me how both Paramount and Koch Lorber could legitimately own the DVD rights to the same film in Region 1. It may be that the dispute over the DVD rights has been resolved by an agreement hammered out by their corresponding legal departments (perhaps allowing Paramount to retain the theatrical distribution, and limiting Koch Lorber's DVD rights to a small window--say 1 year, after which Paramount could release its own DVD of the film). Or it may be that no agreement was reached, and the companies plan to go head-to-head with competing DVD releases (in which case, Paramount better get cracking before KL steals their thunder). All pure speculation ...

Paramount's Martin Blythe has declined to comment on the situation, and I doubt that our friends from KL can shed any light either.

Yeah, I passed on seeing the Paramount print last month in Los Angeles at the American Cinematheque, and the month before that at the Nuart. Now I'm kicking myself.

Anyway, perhaps Paramount has the video rights as well, and releases a DVD as fantastic as Once Upon A Time In The West

At this point I think I need to cancel my preorder and do a wait and see on this....

Originally posted by FilmFanSea
In the new brochure announcing (NYC's) Film Forum's Summer/Fall Screening Schedule (http://www.filmforum.com/pdf/ff2_2004SummerCal_final.pdf), they advertise a "NEW 35mm PRINT!" for the July 23rd-August 5th run of La Dolce vita.

At the bottom of the listing are the words A PARAMOUNT RELEASE.

So, if Paramount holds both theatrical distribution rights and video distribution rights*, we very well could see a Paramount DVD (which would undoubtedly derive from an NTSC master using the elements utilized for the new 35mm print). This may also explain why Koch Lorber had no access to the best elements for their transfer. Stay tuned ...


* It's unclear to me how both Paramount and Koch Lorber could legitimately own the DVD rights to the same film in Region 1.


Basically, theatrical rights and home video rights have nothing to do with each other. That's not to say that they can't belong to the same company, but they certainly don't have to. For instance, a number of re-issues have had theatrical showings under the KINO or RIALTO umbrellas, that have ended up as Criterion DVDs ("I Vitelloni from Kino, now a Crit. DVD). The fallout from Cowboy Pictures failure has caused some of these odd pairings. To my knowledge, Koch Lorber doesn't present theatrical showings. Wellspring did -- including a really crappy theatrical print of "Ran" which rivaled the awful "restored" DVD. There are certain companies that are much less likely to license DVD rights to an independent company (for DVD, that is), but European films often are not owned by those companies, and they change hands more frequently (as far as US theatrical and video rights).

So, Paramount does not own DVD rights, and probably wouldn't pursue them. I think most would say at this point, it's a shame Criterion wasn't able to secure DVD rights.

Originally posted by unclehulot
Basically, theatrical rights and home video rights have nothing to do with each other. That's not to say that they can't belong to the same company, but they certainly don't have to. For instance, a number of re-issues have had theatrical showings under the KINO or RIALTO umbrellas, that have ended up as Criterion DVDs ("I Vitelloni from Kino, now a Crit. DVD). The fallout from Cowboy Pictures failure has caused some of these odd pairings. To my knowledge, Koch Lorber doesn't present theatrical showings. Wellspring did -- including a really crappy theatrical print of "Ran" which rivaled the awful "restored" DVD. There are certain companies that are much less likely to license DVD rights to an independent company (for DVD, that is), but European films often are not owned by those companies, and they change hands more frequently (as far as US theatrical and video rights).

So, Paramount does not own DVD rights, and probably wouldn't pursue them. I think most would say at this point, it's a shame Criterion wasn't able to secure DVD rights.
Yes, I am quite aware that theatrical distribution rights and DVD distribution rights are separate issues, and that the possession of one does not guarantee the other. But you miss two important points:

1. In December 2003, the New York Times reported (http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/14/movies/14FRED.html?8hpib) that there was a dispute between Koch Lorber and Paramount over the ownership of DVD rights to La Dolce vita:Sometimes, ownership is in dispute. Last February, a new video company, Koch-Lorber, announced that one of its first DVD's would be "La Dolce Vita" by Fellini. The company had bought the rights from a small company called International Media Films, which claimed it owned the movie.

But Paramount Pictures claims that it owns "La Dolce Vita." A legal battle is brewing. Koch-Lorber's DVD has been delayed. Paramount, meanwhile, is reportedly preparing its own DVD.
This dispute led to the delay in KL's release from September 2003. So Paramount believes it DOES own the DVD rights to this film.

2. Given the paltry potential income from a limited arthouse re-release, what could have possessed Paramount to purchase the theatrical distribution rights only, and to strike a new 35mm print if not to promote a planned DVD release (where the real money is to be made)??? Are you aware of any other major studio which has purchased theatrical distribution rights alone for a foreign art film?

Thanks, I missed that one. I was just assuming that the Paramount distribution arm sprung for the prints (since Koch Lorber doesn't deal in that area, to MY knowledge). Paramount is a mystery to me regarding foreign film on DVD. I can't imagine they wouldn't have had the clout (or money) to have procured this if they wanted to. Considering that, in general, they don't go for big SE's of foreign films, but rather go for cheap bare bones releases, it's hard to say which release would have been superior. Certainly, the transfer would have been done in native NTSC, but the extras might have been slender. This possibly DOES explain why Koch Lorber had to go to a PAL source since Paramount might be sitting on the best 35mm material in the US right now.

Don't you think that the dispute has been settled in (our out of) the courts, accounting for the delay, and that Paramount has backed off of any claims for the video rights now?

All the more reason for me to see it at Film Forum next month while I'm in NYC!

I saw this thread just today and I have read it carefully and I understand that I have to delay one more time buying La Dolce Vita. I won't by Medusa for 3 reasons
1 - extras stinks
2 - Medusa's owner
3 - PAL
The restored film was shown last year in Cannes and then in Italy and now I read it is shown even in the US, so Koch Lorber had not access to the restored 35mm print because someone else - Paramount - hold the rights to that copy. Since the money are in the DVD business it makes no sense that Paramount bought the theatrical rights forgetting the DVD rights.
Be as it, I'll be patient, to be patient is the only method to be an happy DVD collector!

Originally posted by mdm67
The restored film was shown last year in Cannes and then in Italy and now I read it is shown even in the US, so Koch Lorber had not access to the restored 35mm print because someone else - Paramount - hold the rights to that copy. Since the money are in the DVD business it makes no sense that Paramount bought the theatrical rights forgetting the DVD rights.
Be as it, I'll be patient, to be patient is the only method to be an happy DVD collector!

Good points, and thanks to FilmFanSea for pointing out that article.

Don't know whether Paramount or International Media correctly own the video rights to La Dolce Vita. However, video rights (at least by geography) will belong to one or the other.

A compromise is not out of the question. If the loser of the video rights can offer up video rights of other films that tempt the other group - anything can happen.

However, I agree with the point that Paramount did not restore the print just so it can make the film circuit. Obviously (right or wrong) the money is in the video sales of the restored print.

Originally posted by unclehulot
Considering that, in general, they don't go for big SE's of foreign films, but rather go for cheap bare bones releases, it's hard to say which release would have been superior. Don't forget about their excellent treatment of Once Upon A Time In The West

Originally posted by Pants
Don't forget about their excellent treatment of Once Upon A Time In The West
Yes, but Spaghetti Westerns (like Giallo) have a very large fan base compared to Fellini artfilms.

I don't think we'll be getting a "perfect" release. Despite my reservations about Richard Schickel on the commentary track, Koch Lorber is likely to have the best English-friendly extras world-wide. If the producer of the set, Tim Hinsley, is correct, KL may also have the finest current audiovisual quality (with the caveat that it will be based on a PAL master).

If Paramount releases a pristine transfer based on an NTSC master, it will likely blow the others out of the water, but I would expect such a release to be barebones (given the financial risk of producing an SE).

I will still be buying the Koch Lorber (since, as a package, it should better the Medusa). If Paramount does release a DVD down the road (which could well be a year or more away), I'll double-dip only if the picture quality is a significant improvemnent over the KL.

Originally posted by Pants
Don't forget about their excellent treatment of Once Upon A Time In The West

hence my "in general" -- that's the ONE release of their's that would fit the mold of what we're looking for.

I think it's highly unlikely that Fox Lorber would bother with their release if the current terms handed it back to Paramount in as little time as one year from now. Probably 2 or 3. But then, what the hey, we'll be wondering who's going to put out the first "blue-ray" version.

Originally posted by mdm67
I won't buy Medusa for 3 reasons

2 - Medusa's owner
...

What's the matter with Medusa's owner?

Originally posted by FilmFanSea
I will still be buying the Koch Lorber (since, as a package, it should better the Medusa). If Paramount does release a DVD down the road (which could well be a year or more away), I'll double-dip only if the picture quality is a significant improvemnent over the KL.

I assume you meant if it is released. If Paramount does rightfully own the video rights there could be a quick firesale on Lorber's La Dolce Vita related extras. ;)

I sent Tim Hinsley the following email:I wondered if you could comment at all on the Region 1 DVD rights dispute between Koch Lorber and Paramount. Since Paramount holds the theatrical distribution rights (and is exhibiting a new 35mm print),
some may hold off on the KL DVD release in the belief that Paramount may release a DVD of their own (presumably using high quality elements and an NTSC master). If this is still a sensitive legal matter, I'll of course understand if you're not able to comment.

Thanks for your participation in the discussion at DVD Talk. I'm sorry if some members have been disrespectful in questioning your good faith, but your information is greatly valued by the vast majority of us.
Here is his complete reply (which I post here with his permission): I have not had a chance to check the board, so I do not know about any disrespectfulness. I do know that people are passionate about the film, as we are, so opinions are going to be diverse and strong, both ways.

Regarding Paramount, there is no ongoing legal dispute between Koch and Paramount, as we have the video rights and they have not violated those as of yet. Needless to say, our position is very clear: we have these rights and the chain of title to prove it, and we will protect our investment in this film. Paramount has been contacted by us and our representatives numerous times and is being put on notice by the theatrical rights holders. As I am not party to those conversations, I have no comment.

I hope that everyone on the board will give the release a chance. It is a great film and I hope that it will be judged on its merits, and not the opinions of those that have not seen it.

Best,

tim
So it appears there's not much point in waiting for a Paramount DVD release.

Thank you for posting your email FilmFanSea and the additional information you have been able to provide.

Pro-B

ps
I am keeping my Medusa disc and will only rent the new version.

I'm sure that many of us would welcome as many top grade DVD companies as we can get. If that is Koch Lorber, (or even if that will be Koch Lorber) a hearty welcome!

My belief is that as a passionate consumer of video - the only way to improve things for like consumers is to have high expectations from the industry that serves us. Said another way, I see no good that could come from accepting or communicating a lower set of expectations.

Certainly much progress has been made with digital enhancing of video elements. However, I'm going to be delighted with true film restoration with an excellent transfer to video. I'm going to be interested in digital enhancement of film elements (particularly those only a couple generations from the negative or better) with an excellent transfer to video. But digital enhancement of video elements? As long as there wasn't a fire that wiped out the negative, print masters etc. ... why should I want that?

I'm not going to dump on the PAL conversion as it has been banged around enough, but I bring it up for this (hopefully) new point. Koch Lorber needs to distance themselves from another entity Fox Lober which some DVD consumers have a poor opinion of (not smart enough to change their name totally as Fox Lorber did, but that is another issue). But are they distancing themselves?

Fox Lorber did a pal transfer of Umbrellas of Cherbourg that was not well received. Then Richard Lober leaves Fox Lorber, does some other stuff and then works with Koch to create Koch Lober. Richard Lorber supposedly retained the rights to Umbrellas of Cherbourg. This time Koch Lorber does a film to video transfer eliminating the PAL conversion problem so that the singing actually sounds as it was intended.

Now, Koch Lorber is giving us a PAL conversion of another high recognition international film. Sound familiar? Do I think they will come along again with a better version down the road? No. If only because it seems probable that the rights holder that they are working with doesn't have the original film elements nor even a decent print.

Bottom line, why not reward the group that finally gets this right? Giving Koch Lorber revenue for this particular video just sends a green light to Koch and other groups for more of the same.

I really don't know what disrespect Tim Hinsley has received here. Did I miss something? As Mr. Hinsley noted in his reply, anyone that comes here should be prepared for a passionate discusssion. ;) Frankly, there are some statements that Mr. Hinsley has made that are questionable:

Mono. The original mono has been restored and will be available on the disc, as well a stereo and 5.1 track, with or without subititles (English or Spanish), which have also been completely redone.

If they don't have the original film elements how did they get the original mono let alone restore it? Or does "the original mono has been restored" simply "marketing-speak" for 'the film was originally presented in mono so we are including it on the DVD' where "restored" = 'included' and "original" = 'originally.'

Referring to Richard Schickel: Richard is not only an authority on Italian neo-realism, but also a film restoration expert as well (he is currently restoring Sam Fuller's The Big Red One), which makes him uniquely qualified for this commentary.

Why trumpet film restoration? What has film restoration have to do with Koch Lorber's video release of La Dolce Vita?

My guess is that Mr. Hinsley knows the difference but is lost in "marketing speak." The kind that leads to bold letters on the front of DVDs hyping "DIGITALLY RE-MASTERED AND RESTORED" Well, some things may have been altered, some new things may have been included but nothing has been restored.

Moving on to general questions:

Regarding Paramount, there is no ongoing legal dispute between Koch and Paramount, as we have the video rights and they have not violated those as of yet. Needless to say, our position is very clear: we have these rights and the chain of title to prove it, and we will protect our investment in this film. Paramount has been contacted by us and our representatives numerous times and is being put on notice by the theatrical rights holders. As I am not party to those conversations, I have no comment.

Is Mr. Hinsley implying that Paramount not only doesn't have video rights to La Dolce Vita but that they do not own theatrical rights as well? If Mr. Hinsley truly meant to use the plural in holders - as in theatrical rights holders - that would also indicate that multiple areas of geography are involved.


If he isn't saying that, I'm at a lost as to why a theatrical rights holder would be giving notice to Paramount.

Originally posted by ctyankee
Is Mr. Hinsley implying that Paramount not only doesn't have video rights to La Dolce Vita but that they do not own theatrical rights as well? If Mr. Hinsley truly meant to use the plural in holders - as in theatrical rights holders - that would also indicate that multiple areas of geography are involved.


If he isn't saying that, I'm at a lost as to why a theatrical rights holder would be giving notice to Paramount.

Sounds highly suspicious to me too (not to infer that Mr. Hinsley is not a fine gentleman working for a fine outfit earnestly aiming to separate you from your fine pocket change or anything.):D

Originally posted by ctyankee
But digital enhancement of video elements? As long as there wasn't a fire that wiped out the negative, print masters etc. ... why should I want that?



If they don't have the original film elements how did they get the original mono let alone restore it? Or does "the original mono has been restored" simply "marketing-speak" for 'the film was originally presented in mono so we are including it on the DVD' where "restored" = 'included' and "original" = 'originally.'



I'm sure the various Lorbers would appreciate the "r" in the name(sorry, I think it's rude to correct spelling, but there were just TOO many Lobers in there!)!

Call it what you will, but Koch Lorber wouldn't be the first company to perform digital enhancement on elements in the VIDEO domain. Criterion does it, and even shows us examples of it. Of course they ALSO do the film to video transfer, which is the point here, but performing work on video elements alone isn't what will determine the success or failure. Another example of judicious use of further use of enhancement in the video domain is what Eureka has done of late with some of the silent films that have come out in the US first. Even the US producers acknowledge the improvements. Of course, this doesn't imply Koch Lorber will perform any miracles -- but the PROCESS itself is common and no reason in itself to point fingers.

"Original mono" is what it is -- that means it's not remixed into some kind of stereo, or "enhanced" with added sound effects or musical cues (try the new Kino "Fanny" trilogy for a real mess of "restored" soundtrack with all manner of added foley effects!).
Just because they call it "original mono" doesn't imply that it's from any particular elements, or any number of generations from the original. I don't see anything misleading here.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with a number of your points, and I'm in no hurry to buy this release based on a number of issues brought up here.

I guess my gut feeling is to wait and see what we actually end up with here, and then, if more hell needs to be raised, by all means let's do it!!

Originally posted by baracine
Sounds highly suspicious to me too (not to infer that Mr. Hinsley is not a fine gentleman working for a fine outfit earnestly aiming to separate you from your fine pocket change or anything.):D

I'm not implying anything other than Mr. Hinsley's statement is unclear to me.

"Original mono" is what it is -- that means it's not remixed into some kind of stereo, or "enhanced" with added sound effects or musical cues (try the new Kino "Fanny" trilogy for a real mess of "restored" soundtrack with all manner of added foley effects!).
Just because they call it "original mono" doesn't imply that it's from any particular elements, or any number of generations from the original. I don't see anything misleading here.

Perhaps I was over-critical on that point. To your point, original seems to mean 'the way it was originally presented in the theatre.' Point taken. Yet I think that film restoration need to come from film and audio restoration need to come from film or in the case of a score, master tapes etc. I don't see how the finished form ported to another form of media (video) qualifies anything as original. If they want to call something original they could call the 1.0 Mono track the 'Original Audio Format.' ;)

In case anyone is still browsing the forum, I have good news. We were able to successfully accomplish a DT 3:2 dump of the film and will be releasing at the original 174 minute running time. The transfer is complete and we are very pleased with the results. I hope that you will feel the same.

Our next major projects are The Donkey Skin by Demy and Los Olividados by Bunuel. Thank you for your passion for film.

tim

Originally posted by tim hinsley
Los Olividados by Bunuel.

Sweet.

Are you guys working on any other Bunuel?

Originally posted by tim hinsley
In case anyone is still browsing the forum, I have good news. We were able to successfully accomplish a DT 3:2 dump of the film and will be releasing at the original 174 minute running time. The transfer is complete and we are very pleased with the results. I hope that you will feel the same.

Our next major projects are The Donkey Skin by Demy and Los Olividados by Bunuel. Thank you for your passion for film.

tim

Would you mind terribly being more specific, starting with a definition of "DT 3:2 dump" and "original running time"? Will the film be speeded up or no? Thanks.

I'm really elated about "Los Olvidados" but where in hell did you find a decent copy?

Tim: Thanks for all your information and updates on this release, both posted directly in this forum and through emails to FilmFanSea. I've placed my preorder for La Dolce Vita at DigitalEyes.com and look forward to seeing it this September.

Originally posted by tim hinsley


Our next major projects are The Donkey Skin by Demy...



Excellent news!!!!!!! :up:

Pro-B

Los Olividados? Major release? God bless you, sir.

Thank you, Tim, for the wonderful news.

Regarding the "DT 3:2 Dump:" I assume this refers to a process whereby they've digitally corrected for the PAL speedup and have produced an NTSC DVD with the correct running time (174 minutes, as opposed to the 167 minute run-time of the PAL master) and a soundtrack at the correct pitch.

The striking thing is that Koch Lorber has listened to potential consumers who said that they would not buy this release if it demonstrated the 4% PAL speedup, ghosting artifacts, and altered pitch. Bravo.

As a devoted Luis Buñuel fan, I am delighted that Los Olvidados will see a Region 1 release.

Originally posted by FilmFanSea
The striking thing is that Koch Lorber has listened to potential consumers who said that they would not buy this release if it demonstrated the 4% PAL speedup, ghosting artifacts, and altered pitch. Bravo.


Yes, and that's worth a lot in my book. :up:

Let's hope the results are just as encouraging.

Da da da da, da-da-da da da in the right key. I'll give it a try! Great news!

If all the bitching here has affected the outcome, then it was worth it being a bitch!

Bitching pays off!

I have fired up another pre-order.

Thanks for caring enough to spend the time/money to do it right!

Koch just moved up a few notches in my list of companies that "do DVD right."

:up:

Originally posted by slop101
What's the matter with Medusa's owner?

Check out this link:
http://www.dvdtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=273748&highlight=Berlusconi

It might help.

Originally posted by unclehulot
Da da da da, da-da-da da da in the right key. I'll give it a try! Great news!

If all the bitching here has affected the outcome, then it was worth it being a bitch!
First of all, I will be sceptical about this release until Mr. Hinsley takes the time to define clearly what he means by a "DT 3:2 dump". For all we know, it could be what alcoholics do in toilets.

Second, it is always worthwhile being a bitch when it comes to consumer power. I could tell you stories!:D

You are correct. A DT 3:2 conversion is a digital transfer process for PAL to NTSC. It is a fairly new process, so we wanted to be sure of the quality before we announced the running time, etc. It is also the last process before authoring (as we did all of the restoration on a PAL), that's why the announcement is late.

Regarding Olividados, we have located the original nitrate and will be striking a new print.

tim

Alright... "Los Olvidados"! I hope to soon be upgrading my "Films-sans-frontiers" DVD of this fantastic film!

Way to go, Koch-Lorber.

I've just pre-ordered this one. Thanks.

Thanks, Tim Hinsley. Just put in my pre-order.

In case anyone was curious:

DT 3:2 Conversion is artifact free with a precise 3:2 field cadence. It has the technical look and run time of a direct film to 525/NTSC (24 fps) transfer and is 4.1% longer in run time than the 625/PAL master._

In other words, great news. I'm looking forward to this one!

just to let you guys know. we are pushing back the street date on La Dolce two weeks so that all retail will be covered on street. the demand has been heavier than expected and we want to make sure it is done right.

tim

I've decided to get the La Dolce Vita disc in October, to compare it almost immediately to the theatrical print (which hits a nearby arthouse theater that month).

I'd like to pose a question to Mr. Hinsley, not regarding the La Dolce Vita release, but related...due to the DT 3:2 conversion, are there any chances that Koch Lorber will revisit Ermanno Olmi's Tree of Wooden Clogs, which appears to suffer from PAL-NTSC transfer problems?

we will revisit the conversion when we redux everything for HD

I hope that you all enjoy La Dolce as much as we enjoyed working on it. Any feedback that you have on the package is always welcome.

Best,

tim

Tim, I recently attended a new scope print filming of La Dolce in Toronto with nice white subtitles, heard the DVD has yellow subtitles, ugh.

Why the yellow subtitles?

Best regards,

that is always an internal battle here. the white with black borders were continually get washed out and were hard to read. We are looking into providing the viewer a choice of colors on future projects.

^ that's a great idea - and shouldn't be too difficult to implement.

buying it...

Just got my copy in the mail yesterday. I haven't had a chance to watch the whole thing yet, but I did quickly skim throught it. From what I saw, the transfer looks absolutely fantastic! Clean, clear, sharp, and the contrast is excellent. This is the best presentation I've seen.
I'm torn on the subtitle issue. White subs are less obtrusive, but yellow subs are easier to read. I like the idea of possibly having a choice in the future.
Even the booklet was informative and well put together.
Simply put, from what I've seen so far, Koch Lorber's edition of La Dolce Vita rivals anything that Criterion has done. I'm completely satisfied. Thank you Tim!

This edition has been postponed indefinitely in Canada.

Originally posted by baracine
This edition has been postponed indefinitely in Canada.

Have these Koch-Lorber titles ever been available in Canada anyways? I have yet to see Umbrellas of Cherbourg in any store up here. I figured these titles would only be available as an IMPORT.

Thinking that a few weeks back, I put my order in with Amazon.ca - who I figure would get the import. $27.99 CAD isnt bad either.

Originally posted by Coral
Have these Koch-Lor