Mike Lowrey

OK, I know this "topic" has been talked to death, but I'm gonna take it a little bit of a different direction. Bare with me...

OK, let me set this up. I'm sitting here watching the extras on the ROTK disc and it got me thinking about the comparison between the LOTR-EE versions and the "ultimate" SE versions of the Star Wars films coming out on 9/21.

Alright. Peter Jackson & WETA Digital as well as the composer, go back and re-edit and insert new scenes, create new f/x, and remix the score for the EE versions of the LOTR films. They package them in an all new "collectors" box and they become the fan choice for collectibility even though, theorectically they're a blind buy. So much so that some put off or actually skip the TE release. Follow me so far? Good.

Now then, George Lucas is going back and re-editting, inserting new scenes, creating new f/x, and re-composing the score a bit. And then digitally restoring and remastering the film in 4K HD, correcting color-timing, remixing the sound from the original elements. Putting them out in collector's box that will appeal to fanboys. And yet, there are people, a fairly good amount of them, are complaining that the original, most probably non-remastered, versions aren't coming out on DVD. Complaining so much so that they refuse to buy the new editions. Got it? Good.

OK, granted there are a slight few differences between the two scenarios, adding to as opposed to out-right modifications, but for the most part, the two scenarios are very similar. So why is it that a lot of LOTR fans skip the TE and go for the EE only, when THAT version has never been shown in the all important theater. Besides, isn't one of the criteria amongst film fanatics is how a film was presented in the theater, both in aspect ratio and sound mix? Yet, there is almost downright hatred or distain for the father of modern cinema, all for the reason that the man wants to go back and improve his older films.


Obviously, we're still talking a bit of difference between the two, but still, you have to admit that those that claim that "Lucas raped my childhood, yada yada" are a bit silly.

Besides, the only people who seem to complain about Lucas' changes are Gen-X'ers. Those born from about 1965-1980. Those born after 1980 have probably only seen the '97 SEs because the Star Wars VHSs were out of print for a while there before 1990 until the 10th Anniversary of Empire. So they aren't that shocked about the changes.



Well anyway...see my point?

Defiant1

Well, I'd argue that Jackson's modifications have greatly enhanced the existing movie(s), not to mention the extra two discs and four commentary tracks. Lucas's changes haven't been well-received at all. Most of his changes were adding in useless animals which didn't improve anything except to fill up the screen.

Dammit

The theatrical versions of LOTRs are readily available for anyone that wants them (whether some people skip them or not). The Star Wars movies however are NOT available in their theatrical editions. Big difference.

I'd wager that if both versions of the SW trilogy were made available, the majority of people out there would watch the SE's more than the originals simply for the higher quality. I personally don't care THAT much about it. I'd like to own the originals but I'm not one of the "Lucas raped my childhood" people. I think they should be released in their original form because they are a piece of cinematic history and should be preserved as such.

DavidH

What Defiant1 said.

ctyankee

Agreed.

I understand the original poster's point about the logic being absent from some purchaser's decision and it is a somewhat valid one.

However, if Lucas provided both choices to the consumer, it would end the problem and the war of words. That's his choice and he obviously decided he can live with that.

And yes, adding scenes as opposed to modifying theatrical released scenes is not semantics.

My guess is that after all the bluff is gone, the majority of people that buy the EE of LOTR also have the original film as well.

Btw, I'm not into Lucas bashing as he did some great films back when. However, please don't bait us with 'father of modern cinema' nonsense ... mmmmkay?

Mike Lowrey

Thanks, y'all. Actually you's made some points that I meant to make in the original post. The point about the original LOTR films being available while the originals of the SW films aren't. I was distracted while writing the first post and forgot to include that in my summary.

Oh another thing I forgot to include is the point about further enhancement of characters in both franchises. Yes, the EEs of the LOTR films do include much more in terms of character development, but couldn't you also say the same (to a degree) that that's also shown in the SW-SEs? "Greedo shooting first?" OK, bad example... But you know what I mean. Until 9/21 rolls around, we won't know what the new surprises are going to be.

Rivero

PJ makes both versions available to his fans. Lucas does not.

PJ improves his films with his alternate versions. Lucas does not.

PJ respects his fans. Lucas rapes their inner child.

Dazed

Ive given up caring about anything Star Wars related thats not in the original trilogy (although the clone wars cartoons were kinda fun ).

Like many other, I grew up with Star Wars, had all the toys etc etc. Now I dont care anymore. I'll stick with the originals on VHS.

eau

PJ won many Academy Awards. Lucas won none.

ckolchak

Rivero summed the differences up pretty succinctly.

as an aside- it would be interesting to ask how many people went to see, or first saw the SEs expecting to hate them?
i can only speak for myself, but i sure didn't.
i was curious and optimistic and looking forward to seeing material like the Biggs scenes.

its very much been a combination of
1) alterations that are poorly concieved and/or implemented
and
2) the arrogance of the filmmaker in the marketplace.

as far as the argument that the 2004 editions will still be blind buys and could have been vastly improved over the 97 SEs-
here is where track record comes into play.
People looked at the LOTR EEs and concluded that the additions enhanced the material.
good bet (but not certain) that the ROTK also deserves the benefit of the doubt.

look at what Lucas felt was important to change in his films the first chance he had
-greedo shooting first and missing?
-a new muppet number in ROTJ?
-adding a scream?
-deleting the "bring my shuttle" line for something more deadeningly literal, as well as footage of him getting into said shuttle?
-a scene with Jabba that covers the exact same dialouge in a previous scene and adds nothing new of import?

these are the qualities of this filmmaker.
this is the 'level' of this filmmakers storytelling ability circa 1997.

Jackskeleton

Great, a Lucas Vs. Jackson thread. this should be fun for pointless back and forth.

The point is those changes on the EE's are fan favorites while the changes to star wars gets fans of SW pissed for some reason. Jackson does offer both of the videos out there.

AND FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO SAY THE EE'S ARE THE DEFINITIVE WORKS YOU ARE WRONG. Jackson has stated the Theater versions are and the EE's are just icing on the cake.

I hate it when people compare the two because it's apple and oranges. If you are hard up about getting the Original trilogy then go out and buy it. Laser Disc, VHS, VCD are out there. it's just something they bitch about because they are lazy and don't want to take the steps to do something about it.


O'rly, and how many awards has WETA won compared to ILM? How about skywalker sound? You want to compare e-penis' then lucas' off springs have done something more important for the film industry than any other company so far. Give the guy his dues because he has done a lot for the industry and still does.

Grabastic

also, don't forget that the footage you see restored in the LOTR EEs was shot at the same time as the footage we've all seen in the theatrical releases. with the EEs, PJ is simply putting back in all that footage he had to cut to keep these movies at or around 3 hours.

Lucas is going back to footage filmed almost 30 years ago, dropping in all kinds of new stuff (most of it CGI) that was never part of the script or other planning back then, just so he can make these films into this vision of what he wants them to look like 20 and 30 years later.

i think we can all understand the distinction here.

Jackskeleton

Well to be lucas' defense in this. It would be a little hard to put back footage shot at the time as well as the reason that their was limitations to what he could do with the technology back then compared to what he can do now.

Fok

Peter Jackson didn't make any changes to the original, technically the EE are the original because they have scenes that he cut out.
Lucas however went back and CGI everything to the point of ruining the noverty.

If Lucas released the original trilogy as a worthy 12 disk set, all will be forgiven

shaggy

This thread is a little more interesting than most of these useless lucas vs jackson rants.

I have no problem with Lucas, Jackson or any director revisting their work. Sometimes it adds to the film, and when it doesn't you still have the originals.

I'm actually hoping Lucas releases almost completely new versions of the original trilogy with actors and effects from the new trilogy. It could be really cool, and if it sucks it has no effect on my enjoyment of the originals. I do think Lucas is making a mistake not releasing the originals. If it were me i wouldn't want to piss of those people ready to spend the money the original. I think he should release his version loaded with extras and reference quallity for $50. Then put out an "archive" edition with the original cuts, and original VHS extras and charge $100 for it. That way the collectors get what they want, and he encourages the casual fans to buy the set he prefers.

madcougar

Well Lucas did rape my childhood. Now my childhood is hooked on crack and will perform "services" for $10 behind a theatre down the street. I dont' think my childhood is going to make it to 30. Sad.

I actually didn't see the regular editions of LOTR. I've only seen the first two EE. I think those DVDs are amazingly well done, even though I'm a lukewarm fan of the actual movies.

IMHO, Lucas has lost his freaking mind. He could continue to tinker with the movies until he dies. He is in a very distinct minority of people who can't leave well enough alone. And how I wish he would.

In my mind Jackson just loaded some goodies onto some DVDs for the fans. Lucas is under some delusion that his movies aren't "finished." Two very different scenarios indeed.

PeteH

I think that the difference is this:
Most people that are familiar with the LOTR trilogy know the story from reading the books. The LOTR EE's are putting back parts of the story that were cut out of the theatrical versions, thus bringing them closer to the original storyline (as in the books).
With Star Wars, it is the opposite... The original trilogy movies WERE the original story, therefore any changes made with the special editions are moving the storyline away from the original.

just my 2 cents...

Jackskeleton

That still doesn't mean that the EE's are the originals. the Originals are what you saw in the theaters for the first time opening night. Your comment makes it sound as if a director re-edit footage in say Blade Runner and then the directors cut is now the original. That is wrong, the original is the theater version. The Directors Cut is the Directors Cut. In this case, the Extended Editions are NOT the directors cut. The director already said that. He said that the theater versions stand on their own and are for the general audiance. The EE's, as he stated are just icing on the cake.

QuiGonJosh

Star Wars beats the s**t outta LOTR any ol day a the week!

Dazed

Well, My Dads bigger than your Dad, so there

Blade

The difference, besides what's already been posted, in reaction is that the Star Wars films are something a lot of people who post on boards like this grew up with. We've been watching these movies in theaters, on TV, on VHS and LD for a long time and always the same version. Now Lucas is saying that the movie experience that millions have internalized over the last 30 or so years is dead to him, so it has to be dead to us too (at least in regards to the DVD format).

LOTR's hasn't had time to become a part of the "movie geek" mindset yet (and I say that in a good way ). If, 30 years from now, PJ decided that for the then definitive home theater viewing experience he was only going to make available a new significantly changed version of the movie, I think a lot of the same people (or types of people) would be very upset about that situation too.

For me at least, it's immaterial whether either man's changes improve or harm their respective films, I just want the choice to see the movie the way it was shown in the theaters. I bought both versions of the LOTR movies, and I would happily do the same with Star Wars.

Duder

Besides the differences that have already been mentioned (choice of the version to buy as well as quality of the non-theatrical version), there's another major difference: Peter Jackson isn't making his changes to his movies decades after the fact. In the end, though, I think the fact that consumers have a choice with LOTR and don't have a choice with SW is the crucial part of the equation. Personally, I'd be just as disappointed if Lucas made available only the untouched versions of the SW movies, because while the SEs are flawed, they also have some strengths. Really, if we had a choice, far fewer of us would be bitching about Lucas.

EDIT: Heheh, Blade said pretty much the same thing while I was typing this up.

zero

I doubt this thread will make it to three pages.

Rivero

keep telling yourself that, LOTR gave Lucas many of his ideas for SW.

huh?

This is such a stupid thread.