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View Full Version : Matrix 2/3 Unnecessary Scenes?


kaze0
04-06-04, 01:26 PM
Hey guys. Now that Reloaded and Revolutions are both out on DVD I wanted to create a playlist so I could watch both movies while skipping over the scenes that most people think are unnecessary or cringeworthy. So what do you guys think I should skip over? I'm sure everyone is going to say the rave scene. After seeing Revolutions I thought that so much of Reloaded seemed wasteful, but I can't remember much of it now.
I don't want anyone to think I think that I could come up with a better version of these movies, I just thought this would be an interesting little excercise.

Trigger
04-06-04, 01:48 PM
can't say I think this is a good idea.

Psychlowne
04-06-04, 02:09 PM
Let's split the series up into three chapters just for the sake of this thread:

1. The Matrix
2. The Matrix: Reloaded
3. The Matrix: Revolutions

Skip chapters 2 and 3.

zero
04-06-04, 03:10 PM
Originally posted by Trigger
can't say I think this is a good idea.

I agree, this thread is gonna be a problem. Any bets on how long this thread will be?

Daytrip
04-06-04, 03:15 PM
skip scenes? what's the point in watching it? i mean if you can't set aside a few hours to watch the entire film there's no point. especially with these films

caiman
04-06-04, 03:16 PM
Just watch the damn movies.

Jackskeleton
04-06-04, 03:30 PM
The movies make little sense as is.. I wouldn't imagine cutting out any more causing more confussion.

devilshalo
04-06-04, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by Psychlowne
Let's split the series up into three chapters just for the sake of this thread:

1. The Matrix
2. The Matrix: Reloaded
3. The Matrix: Revolutions

Skip chapters 2 and 3.

:up:

PopcornTreeCt
04-06-04, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by Psychlowne
Let's split the series up into three chapters just for the sake of this thread:

1. The Matrix
2. The Matrix: Reloaded
3. The Matrix: Revolutions

Skip chapters 2 and 3.

Agreed!

wmansir
04-06-04, 03:46 PM
I was thinking about this when reading the "is Revolutions really that bad" thread. I would love to see a phantom edit of Reloaded/Revolutions into one single movie.

Working off from memory here is what I would cut:

Reloaded:

Rave scene/love scene

Cut down morpheus' speech

A big chunk of the frenchman dinner scene

The Neo/Monica Bellucci kissing scene, just cut to her betraying the frenchman

Cut down the burly brawl scene, others liked it, I didn't get into it and it was too long.

Revolutions:

The train station limbo scenes

In fact the whole never explained, manufactured cliffhanger, Neo can enter the matrix remotely aspect. They never encounter the sentinels at the end of Reloaded, and for the final ride to the center of the matrix he is jacked in yet conscious in the real world. Unfortunately you would loose the weapons check fight scene, which would suck, but loosing the pointless second meeting with the frenchman would be worth it.

You could perhaps trim down some of of the battle sequences, but I can't think of a single major cut elsewhere. I'm sure if I had seen the movie more than once I could.

spinning plates
04-06-04, 03:57 PM
what psychlowne said.

Rival11
04-06-04, 06:01 PM
Originally posted by Psychlowne
Let's split the series up into three chapters just for the sake of this thread:

1. The Matrix
2. The Matrix: Reloaded
3. The Matrix: Revolutions

Skip chapters 2 and 3.

Naw, skip chapters 1 and 2

island007
04-06-04, 07:26 PM
I feel dirty. I liked all three.

jaeufraser
04-06-04, 08:20 PM
I'm with the watch them together camp. But I liked the movies so...who knows. I really don't think The Matrix Reedit needs to exist...at most, you'd just be trimming some of the speeches and the beginning scenes in Zion. You'd still have a 4 hour movie though. Either that or a movie that doesn't make any sense.

And don't start the "but these movies don't make sense anyway!" bit. They do to me and many others. If you're truly bored, just hit chapter skip to the action scenes. Otherwise watch it all.

Jackskeleton
04-06-04, 08:28 PM
Originally posted by Rival11
Naw, skip chapters 1 and 2

I'm sure 3 will make as much sense as it did even if you didn't watch 1 and 2.

Stu 17
04-06-04, 08:42 PM
"Neo can enter the matrix remotely aspect. "

Remember in the first film when Morpheus told Neo that the man that originally freed them could move in and out of the Matrix on his own? Thats what Neo can do. Its just not explained why.

fumanstan
04-06-04, 08:59 PM
Watch them all. Director's vision and all :)

Rival11
04-06-04, 10:41 PM
Originally posted by island007
I feel dirty. I liked all three.

That's one hell of a sig you got there.

Troy Stiffler
04-06-04, 10:47 PM
For Reloaded...

Really liked it, except for the burly brawl and semi-truck explosion. The burly brawl had soem neato fight choreography, but the effects just tore me away from the movie. It's like they just didn't have enough time to make it look remotely realistic. For the explosion, it was an excellent, exciting idea. But the shot was just bad. I prefer to close my eyes during those few second, and imagine a better shot.

For Revolutions...

It was just a pretty bad movie overall. I don't think I'll even be 'completing the trilogy' by buying the DVD.

They could have trimmed off a good five minutes of the mech soldiers yelling at the top of their lungs as they shoot. And having a mech hold a gun gansta' style? Silly idea.

"It is done". UGH! I really, really wanted to let out a really loud 'guff' [to a point where the sold-out crowd could have heard] when I heard that.

The train station scene was actually my favorite in Revolutions.

RyoHazuki
04-07-04, 12:43 AM
I agree that the trainstation scene in Revolutions was pretty good up until that hobo guy.

El-Kabong
04-07-04, 01:15 AM
You could probably cut Trinity's death scene in half and trim half an hour from the thrid one easy.

QuiGonJosh
04-07-04, 05:22 AM
There are no pointless scenes...thats what I love about these movies...everything means something and has a reason for being...and skipping parts in a movie shows a complete and utter disrespect to the filmmaker...DONT DO IT!

Jay G.
04-07-04, 07:02 AM
Originally posted by Stu 17
Remember in the first film when Morpheus told Neo that the man that originally freed them could move in and out of the Matrix on his own? Thats what Neo can do. Its just not explained why.
That's not what Morpheus said in the first film. From the first film:
When the Matrix was first built there was a man born inside that had the ability to change what he wanted, to remake the Matrix as he saw fit.
There's nothing in there about the other "One" being able to remote hack into the Matrix.

huh?
04-07-04, 07:49 AM
What you could do is this, don't watch the 2nd or 3rd movie, and then make up the rest of the story with shadow puppets on the wall in your bedroom. It would make much more sense then, because you were the one making it up as you went along, instead of the directors.

necros
04-07-04, 08:47 AM
I just watched all 3 back to back yesterday. I love all 3 movies but I can see why most don't. A lot of things do drag on... mostly in reloaded. There's too many kung fu scenes. The fighting 1000 smiths scene should be at least half as long as it is. the frenchman goon squad fight should also be cut in half. If Neo is such a badass, why does it take so long for him to beat the bad guys? The whole meeting with the frenchman just drags and drags. The rave/love scene is ok but not totally necessary. In revolutions, the whole train station thing seems kind of a waste. They could have trimmed out a lot of crap and just had 2 shorter films maybe with revolutions starting closer to the big war scene (which is prolly one of the coolest sci fi battle scenes ever).

cruzness
04-07-04, 08:57 AM
I loved all 3 films but I have to say that the rave scene in Reloaded was totally useless. In Revolutions Trinity's death scene was too long and melodramatic.

DamingR
04-07-04, 09:51 AM
This was my thought exactly. I have seen the director's cut, and now I want to see the studio cut.

If you had a good editor (like the person doing Kill Bill), you could probably make Reloaded and Revolutions into one pretty good 2-3 hour movie.

Cut out all the ridiculous plot holes, leave in the cool fights, and make a fun popcorn movie.

Daytrip
04-07-04, 10:07 AM
man the attention spans of people these days. if you don't like the movie don't watch it. that's pretty simple. but going on about it on an internet board pretending you can make it better than it was and that you have all the answers is stupid.

i for one enjoyed them, they wheren't great movies by any means but they where entertaining. they make perfect sense to me. they are SCI/FI movies for gods sake. you guys can believe all other aspects of the genre but you can't believe that neo can shut down sentinel's outside the matrix. deal with it

Patman
04-07-04, 11:05 AM
These threads do depress me to no end as well. I do hope these 3 films age better because I thought there was really good stuff within the films, and the amount of film-making involved was very impressive to me. I think people take it for granted how hard it was to achieve the effects in these films, especially in the last 2 films.

Simpson Purist
04-07-04, 11:11 AM
I agree with some of the posters in that you should watch the movies all the way through first and determine for yourself which scenes were unnecessary.

zero
04-07-04, 11:42 AM
I strongly agree with the last 3 posts. :)

Rypro 525
04-07-04, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by cruzness
I loved all 3 films but I have to say that the rave scene in Reloaded was totally useless. In Revolutions Trinity's death scene was too long and melodramatic. might want to add a spoiler tag there.

Troy Stiffler
04-07-04, 04:38 PM
Originally posted by Patman
These threads do depress me to no end as well. I do hope these 3 films age better because I thought there was really good stuff within the films, and the amount of film-making involved was very impressive to me. I think people take it for granted how hard it was to achieve the effects in these films, especially in the last 2 films.

Yea. I agree. There was good stuff in all three; especially the first two. But just because it can be done doesn't mean it should. Does it make sense to say that they were 'over-conceived'? I think they really hit the capacity of what CG can do nowadays. But that doesn't mean that I have to like what they've done. Revolutions had the confidence to be good, and I dig that. Unfortunately, it wasn't.

The Matrix Trilogy will be one of the coolest-looking films when it is remade in twenty years.




As for the "Kill Bill Editor" comment... I think the movie would have been a bit different with Tarantino helming. Whoa. :D

nodeerforamonth
04-07-04, 05:13 PM
Just curious: how many of you who said "skip parts 2 & 3" bought Revolutions yesterday?

I'd venture a guess to say you all did.

QuiGonJosh
04-07-04, 05:37 PM
I loved all 3 films but I have to say that the rave scene in Reloaded was totally useless

Its meant to show how strong a voice Morpheus has become in Zion and how many believe what he's saying...and its the one last night that everyone has to have time with their loved ones and make love...this scene is something you dont see very often and I was very happy to see it...

Jay G.
04-07-04, 05:38 PM
Originally posted by nodeerforamonth
Just curious: how many of you who said "skip parts 2 & 3" bought Revolutions yesterday?

I'd venture a guess to say you all did.

Well, I didn't say that, but I'm not going anywhere near 2 & 3 on DVD. And "skip parts 2 & 3" is probably going to be how I watch the series in the future.

I also haven't bought Indy on DVD because I don't like "Temple of Doom."

I also haven't bought Back to the Future on DVD because I only want to own the first film.

Say what you will about the Matrix and its sequels, at least they're available seperately.

Jay G.
04-07-04, 05:41 PM
Originally posted by Patman
I think people take it for granted how hard it was to achieve the effects in these films, especially in the last 2 films.

I don't care how hard the effects were to acheive, if they either look bad or exist in a bad film the amount of effort put into them means little to me. If I want cool FX, I'll watch and FX studio demo reel. What I wanted from the Matrix sequels were good films.

beefjerky
04-07-04, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by cruzness
I loved all 3 films but I have to say that the rave scene in Reloaded was totally useless.

Okay, I see this complaint way too much, so I have to say something. The rave scene might have looked stupid to some people, but it did have a purpose, and it achieved it pretty well. It wasn't the completely useless scene that everyone keeps bitching about.

The entire scene is very symbolic. It's the opposite of the perfection and heaven that is the Matrix. The people of Zion have eaten the fruit and have rejected (or been cast out) of heaven. They're dancing right in the depths of hell, or maybe not in, but certainly at its gates. Those long shots of feet and bodies moving in the dirt really show the difference between the dirty earth and the clean matrix. It's also a very warm, womb-like place, meant to represent the birth of human life (that's why so many Zionites are of African heritage). This is a place where people are born, not grown like in the world of the matrix.

Life in the real world is hard, and dirty, but these people are able to be free. This is a world of flesh and blood, not the cold perfection of the matrix, devoid of passion, where people must have "purpose" and do "only what they're meant to do." The people of Zion are really in touch with what makes one human, and the sexualized dancing and the sex scene really drove this in. Like Mouse from the first movie said, "to deny our impulses is to deny what makes us human," and the people of Zion are reveling at the ability to be human. One of my favorite shots of symbolism from the movie is the focus on Neo's plugs on his back during the sex scene. It just strengthens the concept that these people have fallen from heaven, keeping the scars of their "wings."

Ideally, this scene should've made the fight for Zion even more resounding, because Zion was the very last symbol of human freedom/life, and these people were fighting to keep that small last bit from getting wiped out forever.

jaeufraser
04-07-04, 06:53 PM
I'll tell you my suggestion. Watch Reloaded and Revolutions TOGETHER at the same time. Just back to back. The films work really well togther, and a lot of the seemingly useless stuff in the beginning of Reloaded actually is quite relevant to Revolutions. In fact, as a 4 and a half hour movie, it works quite well.

And if you're saying cut the battle scene down...NO! I lvoe watching shit blow up, why don't you? What sort of action movie fan are you?

Rival11
04-07-04, 06:55 PM
Originally posted by nodeerforamonth
Just curious: how many of you who said "skip parts 2 & 3" bought Revolutions yesterday?

I'd venture a guess to say you all did.

I bought Revolutions the day it was released - but I said skip parts 1 & 2 - there's no techno music or ten minute soft core orgy in Revolutions did I just use a spoiler tag for that nonsense??? ;-)

Also, It's getting kind of boring hearing people complain about the rave scene - what was so bad about it? it's not like our hero trio busted out the electric slide before dicussing important matters - and if you really hated it well then it's even creepier because the scene is so short - I don't know, I just don't know why people are so uptight about it - were you this angry with the techno scene in the first Matrix???

These movies do get slammed way too much and no, I'm not defending them - I bash them here and there in certain areas just like I do with a lot of other films - but It always seems like the Matrix films don't only bother people, but it really gets them angry, it's kind of wierd but oh well.

Abob Teff
04-07-04, 07:02 PM
Beefjerky -- I understand your interpretation of the rave scene. For the most part I agree with it. However, I still think that the sentiments that you expressed were pretty self-obvious and we didn't need a five and a half minute segment from Soul Train to achieve it.

Rypro 525
04-07-04, 07:08 PM
and if we're gonna have a love scene between Trinity and Neo, at least show somehthin for the guys.

Abob Teff
04-07-04, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by Jay G.
I don't care how hard the effects were to acheive, if they either look bad or exist in a bad film the amount of effort put into them means little to me. If I want cool FX, I'll watch and FX studio demo reel. What I wanted from the Matrix sequels were good films.
I agree with Jay G. While the effects are what brought the first "Matrix" to the fore-front of popular culture, the movie would have been nothing without the layers upon layers of an intelligent script and solidly made film. I'm not trying to piss on the work of special effects artists, but we have reached a level where special effects can no longer be expected to carry a movie critically (although the box office may say different). Special effects are becoming blaise. I'm not saying that they are bad (well, in some films they are), but that they are so well done these days that there is very little that can be done to make a movie stand out on special effects alone.
<P>Perhaps I missed a lot of the layers of the second and third films. I watched the first and second back to back last night and did gain a better appreciation for Reloaded. Unfortunately I fell asleep shortly into Revolutions, so my "Matrix-athon" was cut short.

wmansir
04-07-04, 07:10 PM
That would be nice, but didn't the matrix seem to have a pretty active rave scene as well (though with more of a goth twist)? Also, look at the first movie again and tell me the matrix is a clean, heavenly place of perfection.

That is one aspect of the first movie that was completely lost in the sequels; the dirty, timeless weirdness of the matrix. Like how the 'bug' was a like an old transistor tub, the buildings were decaying and thick with dust and debris, the land lines were rotary phones, the oracle's apartment was outdated. Sure, some of these things were brought back in the sequels, but only those present in the first film. Nothing of that type was added. If you go back and watch The Matrix you will be surprised just how much style it has. Not just in props and atmosphere, but direction, cinematography, sound. The sequels seem to be missing these things in my view.

EDIT: I'm refering to beefjerky's comment, I was just to lazy to quote it and i got distracted so other comments slipped in first.

Abob Teff
04-07-04, 07:12 PM
Originally posted by Rypro 525
and if we're gonna have a love scene between Trinity and Neo, at least show somehthin for the guys.
Another useless scene that was forced. What exactly was the point? I think that we could all pretty well gather that Neo and Trinity are in love. Yes, beefjerky, it does bring a more naturalistic/humanistic feel to a "cold grey" society, but I feel that it was a forced statement that wasn't needed. I hope I'm not missing this one as bad as Ebert missed the end of Spiderman.

Abob Teff
04-07-04, 07:15 PM
Originally posted by wmansir
That would be nice, but didn't the matrix seem to have a pretty active rave scene as well (though with more of a goth twist)?
I woudln't say it had a rave "scene." It had a scene set in a rave (as does the third movie). The point of the scene was not the rave itself. I do completely agree with everything else you said though!

beefjerky
04-07-04, 07:20 PM
Originally posted by wmansir
Also, look at the first movie again and tell me the matrix is a clean, heavenly place of perfection.

Compared to the real world, the matrix is heaven. True, the first film had it's share of gritty environments, but there were also many clean, slick environments in it also. Compared to the real world, the matrix is heaven, Cypher even says it in the first film more or less. It wasn't so much that the film was trying to tell you that the matrix itself is gritty, but the rebels, the "serpents" spreading the fruit of knowledge, choosing to run in the grittier underworld rather than the cleaner parts of the matrix.

Throughout the trilogy, there's a lot about the symbolism of the heaven of the Matrix and the machine world, and the god-ness of the machines.

As for the sex scene again, it does add more to Neo's character, how Reloaded tried to drive in the point that he was still human, only a man.

Rypro 525
04-07-04, 07:21 PM
also what was the "point" of the kissing scene between Neo and Monica Belluci? it got a big laugh at my showing (opening night at the senator theater btw) but there didnt' seem to having this in except to bring back the "dodge this" line in 1, excpet she said something else similar,

fumanstan
04-07-04, 07:26 PM
Originally posted by Rypro 525
also what was the "point" of the kissing scene between Neo and Monica Belluci? it got a big laugh at my showing (opening night at the senator theater btw) but there didnt' seem to having this in except to bring back the "dodge this" line in 1, excpet she said something else similar,

I would say just to enforce the concept of love.

beefjerky
04-07-04, 07:30 PM
Originally posted by Rypro 525
also what was the "point" of the kissing scene between Neo and Monica Belluci? it got a big laugh at my showing (opening night at the senator theater btw) but there didnt' seem to having this in except to bring back the "dodge this" line in 1, excpet she said something else similar,

She's supposed to be a vampire of emotions. It's an artificial life trying desperately to understand/feel human emotions, and she does so by literally sucking them out of people. Also, yeah, reinforces the love that Neo has.

Abob Teff
04-07-04, 08:00 PM
Originally posted by beefjerky
She's supposed to be a vampire of emotions. It's an artificial life trying desperately to understand/feel human emotions, and she does so by literally sucking them out of people. Also, yeah, reinforces the love that Neo has.
I'll actually defend this scene with beefjerky. I don't know about the vampire aspect, but at many points the "machines" or "programs" express their inability to understand humans and their desire to do so and possibly feel emotions. The programs at the train station speak with Neo about "love" (it is just a word, but the emotional connection to that word . . . ). The Matrix was initially created as a "perfect world" yet human minds rejected it, the Architect never could understand this emotional, non-logical unbalanced equation. Agent Smith may not admit to trying to understand human emotion, but does so subconciously. Persephone (I tried to name one of my daughters Persephone, but was denied by the then wife, I digress) wants to feel emotion as a means of gaining an understanding the actions of the Merovingian. The scene mainly shows how mankind's greatest weapon is emotion (playing back to fate vs. free choice).

beefjerky
04-07-04, 08:37 PM
Problem with these movies is that there are a lot of scenes that people view as unnecessary. They want a simple and straight forward story, and they don't need the layers and layers of philosophy and symbolism. People complaining about huge plots holes are just taking scenes for face value. When I talk to people about the first movie, they always mention how smart and philosophical it is. Yes, it is a philosophical movie, but when I ask them their thoughts on the philosophy of it, the only points they can muster up are, "see, the movie is trying to tell you reality is not real," and "Neo represents Jesus." If the other philosophical points in the film go over these people's heads, then of course they're going to lash out at the sequels for being stupid, because those movies lay it on thick and wordy. Sure, you could cut out a lot of scenes and still keep some sort of core story, and people wouldn't mind (they'd probably love it), but for me what makes these movies interesting is all the layers to it.

Cornell West said of the sequels , "they're able to bring together so called 'high culture,' so called 'middle brow,' so called 'low culture,' and you got 400 different levels in the movie. Some people will walk away with 2, some people will walk away with 50, some people will walk away with 400." Personally, I think that even with all of the so called "pretentious" musings, the sequels, at their most basic, are at least entertaining.

wmansir
04-07-04, 09:06 PM
I wouldn't exactly call the original deep, or really even very smart. (by blockbuster standards, sure, but by "real cinema" standards, no) Sure it had symbolism, but it didn't get in the way of the story. It wasn't heavy handed, it was accessible and mostly obvious. There weren't any scenes where you could say "that may seem pointless and doesn't make any sense, unless you realize the spoon represents Neo's unconscious sexual-aggressive feelings toward his mother".

EDIT: I just wanted to add this quote, which I think sums up my feelings on this point:

"I believe the subtext here is rapidly becoming text" - Rupert Giles

jaeufraser
04-07-04, 09:36 PM
Originally posted by wmansir
I wouldn't exactly call the original deep, or really even very smart. (by blockbuster standards, sure, but by "real cinema" standards, no) Sure it had symbolism, but it didn't get in the way of the story. It wasn't heavy handed, it was accessible and mostly obvious. There weren't any scenes where you could say "that may seem pointless and doesn't make any sense, unless you realize the spoon represents Neo's unconscious sexual-aggressive feelings toward his mother".


I completely agree here. I see a lot of people stating the original was landmark, extremely intelligent, great characters, and that the sequels had none of this. I never understood this. All three films sport fairly wooden acting (but nothing too bad), and if anything the first film is, philisophically speaking, the least ambitious and intelligent. In the end, the first film is much more an origina story akin to a comic book film, with the structure of the story dealing with the science fiction aspect. That science fiction and under pinning ideas came to the forefront in the sequels, and was a much more important part to the actual story.

Now, I can understand why the first is preferred. It is a better paced movie than the sequels, it's simpler to follow, and it has a much more conclusive ending that is very much good guy beats bad guy. But really all three films have a lot in common in terms of style so I'll never understand what makes the first leaps and bounds better. I for one am glad the films branched off into otehr characters and deep metaphors of thought, because quite frankly...and this was my complaint about the first film...the characters in these films are flat and dull and one dimensional. It's the underlying story which draws me, and, well, kcik ass action sequences. Which the sequels have in spades. But they also suffer from some slower more erractic pacing, and a story that's less obvious and more...sub-level (though not ridiculously deep, it's not simple cut and dried this happens, that happens story telling).

Nonetheless, I'm happy these movies exist. The sequels are very un-mainstream films, stuff that if not for the resounding love of the first one, would never get greenlit with big budgets. And it's different and unique big budget filmmaking. Not everyone is going to love it, not cause they didn't get it, but cause not everyone enjoys that. I know many walked into these sequels hoping for Neo to just whoop some machine butt.

Rypro 525
04-07-04, 11:43 PM
comeon now, the original movie, the acting wasn't that stiff. and when i do the matrix trilogy on friday, I'm gonna attempt to look at all of the "symbolisim" of the "borring" scenes.

kaze0
04-07-04, 11:58 PM
What about removing the twins from the movies? I haven't had the chance to rewatch Revolutions or Reloaded to see how much they are tangled up in the story, but this sounded interesting.

fumanstan
04-08-04, 01:32 AM
They were one of the coolest parts of Reloaded. :)

DVD007
04-08-04, 04:44 AM
Originally posted by Psychlowne
Let's split the series up into three chapters just for the sake of this thread:

1. The Matrix
2. The Matrix: Reloaded
3. The Matrix: Revolutions

Skip chapters 2 and 3.

That's the funniest thing I have read all day...but Very True!!!


Bruce

Daytrip
04-08-04, 10:50 AM
this scene was unneeded, that scene was unneeded.....i'd think the director would know what was wanted and needed in their film.

everyone preaches and preaches about letting directors work and keeping hollywood producers out of it but when the matrix sequels come up all of a sudden it's cut this and remove that and that's not needed it's just boring and doesn't make sense.

i for one loved the first movie, and liked the third and forth enough to buy them. when revolutions came out i got tangled up in all the different meanings and tie-ins and it was fun, much more fun than any other movie in the last few years. it gave me something to talk about for a few months. if you ask me that's well worth the price of admission and a DVD.

wmansir
04-08-04, 11:25 AM
Originally posted by Daytrip
i for one loved the first movie, and liked the third and forth enough to buy them.

Do you count Animatrix as a second release?

Anyway, I agree that directors should be allowed freedom to make their movies. But I should be allowed the freedom to criticize it, in any way I wish. If that includes specific scene commentary and editorial, story, or direction criticism.

I'm sick of the "It's his baby" argument, popularized by the Lucas "Special Edition" defenders. As if it is inappropriate to critique a work of art or an artistic decision and somehow by telling me, and others, to "shut up" they are defending freedom of expression.

(That last part may read a bit harsher than I intended, I want to be clear this is not a personal attack on you Daytrip, just my feelings on the attitude I described, which you may not hold.)

Daytrip
04-08-04, 11:42 AM
yes i do, and i enjoyed it quite a lot

i hear you, and that's the beauty of the internet. i guess my only gripe about people bashing a movie is the "it's boring" or "it didn't make sense" argument. that annoys me to no end. obviously some people got it's meaning and if you find it boring turn it off and do something you find intresting. but don't use it as a vauge argument as to why you don't like something.

some of the people who say "it's boring" can sit through hours of drama that some people find boring but since it's drama and character driven it must be a classic and untouchable by any other genre

RocShemp
04-08-04, 12:31 PM
Count me as one who was never bothered by the rave scene in Reloaded.

As for Revolutions, after watching the DVD, I find the film holds up better upon second viewing. Even scenes that I felt irked with the first time no longer bother me (i.e. "Who are you?"). In fact, in some cases, I'm wondering why they ever did bother me in the first place. Of course I still feel some thing could have been cut down. Not because I find them unimportant but rather because I feel they lose dramatic weight in their longer form. For example, Trinity should have died after she said "You saved me once before but not this time." That would have been the perfect time to have Neo break down and cry. I understand the sentiment of what she says afterward (and the scene really isn't all that long) and I also comprehend it's significance (as it goes beyond simply the loss of the woman Neo loves) but still feel it would have weighed more on Neo and the audience had the latter portion been left unsaid. I assume the Wachowski's assumed people wouldn't get that the chorus of Neodammerung (during the SUper Burly Brawl) and Navras (end credits) essentially tells you why the things must progress and conclude the way they have. Perhaps they were right. That said, after then watching all three films and the essential Animatrix episodes (according to the "Before the Revolution" timeline) back to back yesterday, I can honestly say all three films work well together. The only thing that hurts it are the missing details relating to Rama-Kandra, Kamala, and Sati (in relation to the Oracle) that are only found in Enter The Matrix. If nothing else, this footage should be re-integrated into Reloaded in order to make this all a little clearer (even though the essential bits are still there).

I've seen so many times people complaining about how the Bros. didn't have enough ideas for a trilogy or never planned for a trilogy at all. I believe they did in both respects. The problem I assume is that they realized that Super-Neo is nowhere near as interesting as Neo when we first met him. Neo the Doubter has more weight to him than Neo I Can Juggle Planets. What do you then do? Devote an entire film to tearing him down, of course. And that's the whole point of Reloaded: Neo's sense of purpose and meaning dashed when he realizes all he believed was false. And the point of the Mobil Ave. was to give Neo a time and place away from all the fighting where he could finally realize his true purpose. That is why Oracle tells Morpheus and Trinity that she was, like them, doing what she could to guide Neo and it cost her (again, this is why I feel the Enter The Matrix footage relating to the Oracle belongs in the sequels). This to me indicates that she could have found another way to smuggle Sati into the Matrix but she chose to have Rama-Kandra make a deal with the Merovingian so that Neo would meet them and realize that things are not cut and dry as he once believed. The purpose the Oracle had in mind for this particular One was to bring about change. The Architect wished him to do just as his five predecesors had but realized that the Matrix would fall once again. And if they survived one system crash (the rejection of the first Matrix - Eden), they were perfectly capable of suffering the loss once again. Which is why the Architect goads Neo. He realizes that Neo has already chosen and cannot reverse his decision, and, thus, mocks Neo for his choice. No, they are not the deepest movies ever made but they are also not the simplest. They strive for a comfortable middle. Sadly, in attempting to please everyone, the Bros. have please no one. Well, there are still fans, like myself, but I'm sure you understand the sentiment. I say this because I hear people complaining either about too much philosophy or too little. I think it's enough.

beefjerky
04-08-04, 09:00 PM
Originally posted by RocShemp
And the point of the Mobil Ave. was to give Neo a time and place away from all the fighting where he could finally realize his true purpose. That is why Oracle tells Morpheus and Trinity that she was, like them, doing what she could to guide Neo and it cost her (again, this is why I feel the Enter The Matrix footage relating to the Oracle belongs in the sequels). This to me indicates that she could have found another way to smuggle Sati into the Matrix but she chose to have Rama-Kandra make a deal with the Merovingian so that Neo would meet them and realize that things are not cut and dry as he once believed. The purpose the Oracle had in mind for this particular One was to bring about change. The Architect wished him to do just as his five predecesors had but realized that the Matrix would fall once again. And if they survived one system crash (the rejection of the first Matrix - Eden), they were perfectly capable of suffering the loss once again. Which is why the Architect goads Neo. He realizes that Neo has already chosen and cannot reverse his decision, and, thus, mocks Neo for his choice.

I just watched this scene again today. The Mobil Ave scene was one of the most important scenes of the movie. It's very well done. It's the limbus patrum of the matrix world, where the purified souls go, unable to enter heaven until Christ's ascension. The Oracle says it herself in her conversation with Neo. Heaven was within Neo's grasp when he reached out and touched the Source for the first time, but he wasn't ready for it, and he couldn't be, until Christ ascended. So Neo's mind separates from his body and descends into limbo to await the ascension, while Neo's body (Trinity) descends into hell to be rejoined with the other half.

The sixth incarnation of the One is still only a man, not yet the the perfect, seventh incarnation. Mobil Ave is where everything turns around. Sati wakes Neo up with a "good morning," indicating that this is truly a new day. Neo the man will be left behind in Mobil Ave, while Neo the true One, the divine, ascends to heaven. We meet Rama Kandra, the seventh avatar of Vishnu, the divine. The first thing that Neo says to Rama is, "I know you," which isn't just a casual remark about seeing him in the restaurant, but a deeper understanding that Rama is what Neo is, or at least what he will become. Here in Mobil we have the meeting of man and divine, and the torch will be passed. Sati, which is the practice of self-immolation and sacrifice, is held proudly by Rama in front of him and between Neo. The gift of sacrifice is right there in front of Neo.

When Neo is ready to come out of the matrix, Link mentions that they were reading something, but they couldn't figure out what it was. Neo the man is left behind in Mobil, while Neo the divine emerges from limbo ready to ascend to heaven, to enlightenment.

RocShemp
04-08-04, 09:19 PM
Originally posted by beefjerky
I just watched this scene again today. The Mobil Ave scene was one of the most important scenes of the movie. It's very well done. It's the limbus patrum of the matrix world, where the purified souls go, unable to enter heaven until Christ's ascension. The Oracle says it herself in her conversation with Neo. Heaven was within Neo's grasp when he reached out and touched the Source for the first time, but he wasn't ready for it, and he couldn't be, until Christ ascended. So Neo's mind separates from his body and descends into limbo to await the ascension, while Neo's body (Trinity) descends into hell to be rejoined with the other half.

The sixth incarnation of the One is still only a man, not yet the the perfect, seventh incarnation. Mobil Ave is where everything turns around. Sati wakes Neo up with a "good morning," indicating that this is truly a new day. Neo the man will be left behind in Mobil Ave, while Neo the true One, the divine, ascends to heaven. We meet Rama Kandra, the seventh avatar of Vishnu, the divine. The first thing that Neo says to Rama is, "I know you," which isn't just a casual remark about seeing him in the restaurant, but a deeper understanding that Rama is what Neo is, or at least what he will become. Here in Mobil we have the meeting of man and divine, and the torch will be passed. Sati, which is the practice of self-immolation and sacrifice, is held proudly by Rama in front of him and between Neo. The gift of sacrifice is right there in front of Neo.

When Neo is ready to come out of the matrix, Link mentions that they were reading something, but they couldn't figure out what it was. Neo the man is left behind in Mobil, while Neo the divine emerges from limbo ready to ascend to heaven, to enlightenment.

Though I don't always agree with you (I disagree with your interpretation of Morpheus as the Serpent in the Garden of Eden) you have always made good arguments to back up your interpretations of these films. In this particular case, I feel we are on the same page. I wonder, did you also notice that while in Mobil Ave. Neo's clothes were different? He was no longer wearing the robe he wears throughout Reloaded and during the Super Burly Brawl. I noticed this when I first watched the DVD. he's wearing a sharp suit but it's definitely not his same clothes. I think this is symbolic of his momentarily straying from his path to enlightenment. Once he's back on course, after his meeting with Rama-Kandra has taken place, he is again in his robe because he is once again sure and focused with regards to his purpose. All that remains is his final choice. This choice the Oracle could not see because Neo had not yet made it. He made the choice to fight Smith but, once Smith had him against the ropes, another choice was laid before him: to keep fighting or to make the ultimate sacrifice. Since that choice was made in that very moment, the Oracle could not see it nor could Smith once he had her "eyes".

Patman
04-08-04, 09:47 PM
For me, these Matrix films do reward those who dive in and look beneath the surface. Thanks for the interpretations and discussion.

beefjerky
04-08-04, 09:48 PM
Originally posted by RocShemp
Though I don't always agree with you (I disagree with your interpretation of Morpheus as the Serpent in the Garden of Eden) you have always made good arguments to back up your interpretations of these films. In this particular case, I feel we are on the same page. I wonder, did you also notice that while in Mobil Ave. Neo's clothes were different? He was no longer wearing the robe he wears throughout Reloaded and during the Super Burly Brawl. I noticed this when I first watched the DVD. he's wearing a sharp suit but it's definitely not his same clothes. I think this is symbolic of his momentarily straying from his path to enlightenment. Once he's back on course, after his meeting with Rama-Kandra has taken place, he is again in his robe because he is once again sure and focused with regards to his purpose.[/spoiler]

I said that Neo was mainly the serpent figure in Reloaded. The other rebels play the role of the serpent, but it's mainly Neo that really embodies this. I mean, they go around dressed in all black, enticing people with the fruit of knowledge and "red" pills. When Neo meets the Architect at the end, the difference between them couldn't be clearer. We have the Architect, bearded, godly man dressed in all white, and Neo, dressed in complete black looking like the devil himself. The human rebels are waging a war against heaven.

Neo's appearance in Mobil changes from his devilish appearance to something softer. After all, this is the point where he changes from man to divine. I don't see Mobil Ave as straying from his path to enlightment, but an integral part of it. Before then, his path to enlightenment was never clear to him. The confident speech at the end of the first Matrix? That's not a path to enlightenment, it's war mongering. Everyone who was expecting Neo to completely destory all the machines, to annihilate Smith, that's not in the spirit of the films. That's the equivalent of Jesus or Buddha beating into submission everyone that stands into path. Neo in Reloaded was unsure of what to do, where to go. Mobil is the point where things turn around, where Neo realizes that he must embrace his compassionate divine side. We see this symbolically when Neo steps off the Mjolnir, the destructive war hammer of Thor, and on to the Logos, the word of God. He was never truly "on course" until after Mobil.

RocShemp
04-08-04, 09:56 PM
Originally posted by beefjerky
I said that Neo was mainly the serpent figure in Reloaded. The other rebels play the role of the serpent, but it's mainly Neo that really embodies this. I mean, they go around dressed in all black, enticing people with the fruit of knowledge and "red" pills. When Neo meets the Architect at the end, the difference between them couldn't be clearer. We have the Architect, bearded, godly man dressed in all white, and Neo, dressed in complete black looking like the devil himself. The human rebels are waging a war against heaven.

Neo's appearance in Mobil changes from his devilish appearance to something softer. After all, this is the point where he changes from man to divine. I don't see Mobil Ave as straying from his path to enlightment, but an integral part of it. Before then, his path to enlightenment was never clear to him. He was unsure of what to do, where to go. Mobil is the point where things turn around, where Neo realizes that he must embrace his compassionate divine side. We see this symbolically when Neo steps off the Mjolnir, the destructive war hammer of Thor, and on to the Logos, the word of God. He was never truly "on course" until after Mobil.

Okay, now I get you. My bad.

I didn't mean he strayed in Mobil Ave. I meant that he strayed and thus ended up in Mobil Ave. The Oracle than made it so that he would meet Rama-Kandra there and get back on track. Yes, Mobil Ave. is when Neo finally realizes his true meaning (even if at first he must meditate upon what he has learned in order to realize what he must do) but he didn't get there due to his realization. Though, like Rama told him, their reasons for being there were similar. Rama over his love for Sati and Neo over his love for Trinity. It was this love that made him so unwilling to die that he survived the separation of mind and body. Remember, the Oracle said "you should have died but it seems you weren't ready for that either". That wasn't mere foreshadowing.

I forgot that Logos means word. Funny, my mom reminded me of that when she watched the movie yesterday and I totally forgot again.