Why do opening credits often look unrestored?

[Grizzly]

i'm sure this question has been asked a million times.. but often when i'm watching an older film (most recently it was Little Big Man) the image during the opening credits look completely untouched by any restoration.. like shimmering, grain, etc. but once they are over the picture looks so much better.. why is this? they can't restore the picture when there are credits present or what's the reason? you'd think with all the modern digital tools they have today that they could restore around the text or whatever the problem is..

[Crocker Jarmen]

I'm not sure of the exact answer. But on films, any shot with a title superimposed on it would be an optical effect. Which means that shot was already a second generation dupe of the original negative.

[bis22]

Maybe they think people don't care about the credits so they don't spend as much time on them.

[jough]

I've noticed problems with the frames not being locked in the credits, so the text tends to jump around a lot.

I've noticed this mostly with just about every Criterion release. I don't know what it is. I meant to log in to the HTF chat with them on Monday and ask about it, but I forgot about the chat.

[RaynMan2019]

I've been noticing artifacts (not DVD type but film type) of dust and such on a few restored DVD's I've rented. Maybe the opening and closing titles are difficult to do because the restorers don't have the 'clean' plate to work with before the titles were on? Maybe, maybe not. Any views and opinions on this? I hope I could be of some help.

[gfoots]

Normally the credits are at the ends of the actual film, so when the reels are handles these parts recieve the most wear. If a film has been professonally restored, the restoration should include the credits as well.

[djtoell]

As Crocker Jarmen mentions, credits are often done via opticals. I believe optically-processed film degrades at a faster rate. Also, due to the later-generational nature of optical effects, any defects in the process become a permanent part of the film. That is, if the film elements used to create the optical effect were dirty and grainy, the resultant effect will be permanently dirty and grainy. This dirt and grain actually becomes a part of the negative, so even a pristine negative will show it. You can see this all the time in optical effects in all parts of many films (e.g., dissolves), not just in their credits. Short of somehow finding the various elements and recompositing the optical effect, however, it isn't possible to find anything that would look "better." If the original look of the optical was dirty and grainy, there is little that can be done to rectify this. Nothing can really be done to make it look like the rest of the film.

DJ

[RaynMan2019]

Originally posted by djtoell
As Crocker Jarmen mentions, credits are often done via opticals. I believe optically-processed film degrades at a faster rate. Also, due to the later-generational nature of optical effects, any defects in the process become a permanent part of the film. That is, if the film elements used to create the optical effect were dirty and grainy, the resultant effect will be permanently dirty and grainy. This dirt and grain actually becomes a part of the negative, so even a pristine negative will show it. You can see this all the time in optical effects in all parts of many films (e.g., dissolves), not just in their credits. Short of somehow finding the various elements and recompositing the optical effect, however, it isn't possible to find anything that would look "better." If the original look of the optical was dirty and grainy, there is little that can be done to rectify this. Nothing can really be done to make it look like the rest of the film.

DJ
Wouldn't it also be possible to take the original background plate which the titles were to be opticed over to get a clean print? Then possibly the restorers could re-title the credits with the same exact font with the same placement, duration/time on screen, placement on screen for the restored version? That's what I would like to find out if I was in the film restoration business.
BUT, my process would probably involve some form of digital restoration method. Any positive or negative side-affects this 'method' could have for the restoration process?

[djtoell]

Originally posted by RaynMan2019
Wouldn't it also be possible to take the original background plate which the titles were to be opticed over to get a clean print?

I mentioned this option in my post: recompositing the optical.

Any positive or negative side-affects this 'method' could have for the restoration process?

The separate elements necessary may no longer exist (or be findable) for every film. Purists might get very upset if the new optical effect wasn't somehow perfect in its recreation of the original in every way (and the loss of even the original dirt in the optical may be too great for some). For better or worse, less-than-perfect opticals are an inherent part of many films, and changing that can be a big deal. It would also be costly and time-consuming for a rather minimal benefit. Viewers of restored films have put up with sometimes crappy opticals for a long time already, so presumably the additional work wouldn't provide any additional ticket or video sales.

DJ

[RaynMan2019]

DJ,

I get what you're saying. Let me see if I could put it the way I understand it. It'll be more feasible for the restorers if the film they were working on was a more 'current' film? That way, the more 'current' film has probably more resources to contribute towards this process. This would more likely happen if the director wants to re-optic the titles and fund his own money for this extra restoration time.
It'd also have to do with matchups and everything. I've even noticed some slight dust particles and the such during the titles for the entire Indiana Jones WIDESCREEN trilogy, but the rest of the film is ok.
I guess if the restorers would want to take the time fiddling around with the opening and closing credits, (I would assume this process also has to do with the occasional location and such titles which pop up every now and then for the movie), would be some really time consuming work.
In the long run, I guess the restorers would fairly much have to deal with the rest of the film.

Ray

[RaynMan2019]

Oh, is there a url I could go to about finding out which films have been restored? For R1, of course.

[jough]

Originally posted by gfoots
Normally the credits are at the ends of the actual film, so when the reels are handles these parts recieve the most wear. If a film has been professonally restored, the restoration should include the credits as well.

Not for classic films before 1970 that are often the most in need of restoration. The credits for a film were traditionally at the beginning of the film - it's only recently that credits have primarily been moved to the end.

Anyway, the thread subject is specifically asking about opening credits.

[Grizzly]

Originally posted by djtoell
You can see this all the time in optical effects in all parts of many films (e.g., dissolves), not just in their credits.

oh yeah, that too. i forgot about that.. i've seen some DVDs that had some really terrible dissolves.. the picture is really awesome and then it just very different (and worse) a few seconds before the dissolve.

thanks everyone who replied!

[obscurelabel]

I saw the restored "The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly" in a theater recently ... it has scenes with very obvious optical work where "the good" is printed over a short scene of Clint Eastwood, and other shots with "the bad" and "the ugly" over the other main characters ... not the beginning credits, but well within the film. These shots looked much more "dupey" with different color levels, less sharpness, lots of scratches, dirt, etc. Since this was not at the beginning I guess it was because of the optical work that had to be done, but it certainly looked pretty bad.

[kajs]

Originally posted by Grizzly
oh yeah, that too. i forgot about that.. i've seen some DVDs that had some really terrible dissolves.. the picture is really awesome and then it just very different (and worse) a few seconds before the dissolve.

I think The Searchers is like that...really annoying.

[DVD Josh]

Something interesting to note is that on the My Fair Lady SE, they actually showed them fixing a frame in the opening credits. The compression level may be higher in the credits to allow for lower during the main feature.