My thoughts on this are torn. I really like the NFL's system because it keeps the wanna be great one out of the pro league and keeps the talent from becoming watered down. At the same time it helps a lot of really good athletes develop their skills even more at the college level. Then I also feel that if a person thinks their good enough to go then they should be given the opportunity.
I do feel however that whoever drafts Clarett the NFL in someway will make his career miserable and find a way to make an example of him for ruining their already good system.
wildcatlh
02-05-04, 09:43 AM
As much as I love the NFL syetem, this was inevitable.
He'll be a 2nd/maybe 3rd round draft pick and he'll be broken in half as soon as a LB hits him at full speed. And that'll be that.
Pharoh
02-05-04, 10:40 AM
:(
Daryl
02-05-04, 10:50 AM
I see that the NFL could appeal it which could tie it up in court for a while. Question: did Mo actually apply for early entry to the NFL? If not, couldn't the NFL say "no" due to the fact that the deadline to apply has passed.
This is bad, IMO. The last thing we need is every friggin' 17 or 18 year old thinking they're ready to go pro.
Jeremy517
02-05-04, 11:05 AM
-ohbfrank-
Mad Dawg
02-05-04, 11:17 AM
Originally posted by Daryl
I see that the NFL could appeal it which could tie it up in court for a while.
Not only that, but some on ESPN are saying that the NFL is going to be watching OSU's investigation of Clarett's friendship with a gambler very closely.
twikoff
02-05-04, 11:23 AM
since he seems to be made of glass.. he better hope for a nice signing bonus up front
Red Dog
02-05-04, 11:24 AM
I hope this ruling does not open the floodgates. I do not want to see 19 and 20 year olds playing in the NFL.
The NFL absolutely must appeal this.
twikoff
02-05-04, 11:26 AM
Originally posted by Red Dog
I hope this ruling does not open the floodgates. I do not want to see 19 and 20 year olds playing in the NFL.
The NFL absolutely must appeal this.
and i dont want the top talent to be pulled away from ncaa football even earlier.. like it is with baseball and basketball already.
brizz
02-05-04, 11:42 AM
Horrible, but I still think the clout of the NFL will never allow this to happen. They've got an awful lot of money to fight anything they want to, and they'll definately want to fight this. The 3 year rule is one of the reasons the NFL is as great as it is - and why College Football rules. the absolute last thing we need are freshman declaring for the draft.....ugh.
retihsuhnt
02-05-04, 11:54 AM
Can anyone say Lawrence Phillips?
All hype and no talent. Dont worry he will get into more trouble before he sets foot onto another field.
fumanstan
02-05-04, 11:56 AM
Personally, i thought it was a stupid rule and i'm very much against age limits in proffesional sports.
Jericho
02-05-04, 12:24 PM
Whatever you think of Clarett personally, he is as old as many players entering the league, so this isn't really any different. However, this of course can allow younger and more players to enter the NFL.
However, the NFL is not like other leagues. I don't think this will water down the league, since every roster spot is pretty important. You just can't carry projects, nor will they likely get top picks. Not that the current rule was bad, but I really don't think this will change things much. Of course the ruling probably will be overruled.
cdollaz
02-05-04, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by fumanstan
Personally, i thought it was a stupid rule and i'm very much against age limits in proffesional sports.
Are you an NBA fan?
Josh H
02-05-04, 12:55 PM
I hate this. The quality of play in the NBA has been hurt as a lot of extremely talented players go in too early and don't make it.
Thus we have to watch them struggle for years, and maybe eventually start playing decent (Stevenson) or continue to suck (Miles) or just dissappear.
If they went to college, we wouldn't have to watch them putz around, and they might build up their skills and actuall be successful in the league after 3 or 4 years of college.
Compound this with the fact that the NFL requires even more physcial and mental toughness/maturity and this could be a very slippery slope.
Patman
02-05-04, 01:39 PM
I think we'll see a couple of years of washouts, which will make general managers wary of picking "projects" or high school prospects, so even if high schoolers can petition to be included in the draft, 99% will go undrafted, and will screw up their chances to play college football, making it a big decision for the high schooler to declare themselves up for the NFL draft. What it might do is create more non-scholastically eligible high schoolers to declare for the draft, but what NFL team is going to draft someone who can't demonstrate some book smarts to go along with their 4.3 speed in the 40? It's not going to hurt the NFL as much as it has in the NBA (due to the size of teams, the salary cap, and skill sets).
NCMojo
02-05-04, 01:40 PM
Sure, it sucks as a fan, but the question is can you legally restrict someone from their professional vocation because of their age? And more to the point -- what are the colleges doing operating as a minor-leage development league, anyway? How is that supposed to be the intent of higher education?
So here's the choice: either scrap college athletics and have each professional league establish their own minor league system (much as baseball has done)... or live with the idea of 18 and 19 year olds playing professionally. I don't like it either, but if you only have a limited earning window (most professional football players are considered "over the hill" at age 30), spending the extra two, three, four years in college is just a waste.
Note that the leagues can essentially police themselves without needing a formal rule -- if enough high school students crash and burn trying to turn pro, the NFL may eventually stop drafting them, just as the NBA is probably starting to do now.
Red Dog
02-05-04, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by NCMojo
Sure, it sucks as a fan, but the question is can you legally restrict someone from their professional vocation because of their age? And more to the point -- what are the colleges doing operating as a minor-leage development league, anyway? How is that supposed to be the intent of higher education?
I think a business should be able to hire whomever they want & set their own rules for hiring. Period.
Now if the question is can, I'm not familiar enough with labor law to know the answer to this question.
Josh H
02-05-04, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by Red Dog
I think a business should be able to hire whomever they want & set their own rules for hiring. Period.
Now if the question is can, I'm not familiar enough with labor law to know the answer to this question.
I agree on the should part. I also don't see how it violates anti-trust laws as the NFL isn't the only place someone can play professional football. They're the top league, but not the only one, so they don't have a monopoly. Doesn't make any sense to me.
But I have no real knowledge of the relevant labor laws, so I'm just speculating here.
cdollaz
02-05-04, 01:48 PM
There are certain restrictions on my chosen profession, such as a college degree, a certain amount of experience, etc.
A business, which the NFL is, should be able to do whatever it takes to protect the integrity of it's business, as long as it does not discriminate racially, sexually, etc.
fumanstan
02-05-04, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by cdollaz
Are you an NBA fan?
Very much so, and it is my favorite sport. And i am very much against Stern implementing an age limit for the league.
A business, which the NFL is, should be able to do whatever it takes to protect the integrity of it's business, as long as it does not discriminate racially, sexually, etc.
So why discriminate by age? If no NFL team wants to draft a 19 year old because he's not ready, then fine. But if he's got the skills and talent at a young age, i don't see why he should be restricted. Like you said, its the same as a business. If a genius already has his masters at age 16, should he be prevented from working somewhere because of his age, even though he's as qualified as anyone else?
Red Dog
02-05-04, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by fumanstan
So why discriminate by age? If no NFL team wants to draft a 19 year old because he's not ready, then fine. But if he's got the skills and talent at a young age, i don't see why he should be restricted. Like you said, its the same as a business. If a genius already has his masters at age 16, should he be prevented from working somewhere because of his age, even though he's as qualified as anyone else?
If the 32 franchises want to set a hard rule, why not let them? The 16 year old genius does not have a right to a job IMO.
fumanstan
02-05-04, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by Red Dog
If the 32 franchises want to set a hard rule, why not let them? The 16 year old genius does not have a right to a job IMO.
Of course not, but only if you can come up with a reason why a 30 year old with the same qualifications should be hired over a 16 year old. That's what discrimination is.
Josh H
02-05-04, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by fumanstan
Of course not, but only if you can come up with a reason why a 30 year old with the same qualifications should be hired over a 16 year old. That's what discrimination is.
Maturity and life experince.
Red Dog
02-05-04, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by fumanstan
Of course not, but only if you can come up with a reason why a 30 year old with the same qualifications should be hired over a 16 year old. That's what discrimination is.
Why must there be a reason? If I own a business, why should I not be allowed to hire whomever I want? Now being discriminatory in most cases would likely be bad for business and push me towards failure, so I would certainly choose to be open-minded. Teens entering the NBA has certainly hurt the league. The NFL is making a business decision that teens in the NFL would hurt the product.
Jeremy517
02-05-04, 02:13 PM
Originally posted by fumanstan
Of course not, but only if you can come up with a reason why a 30 year old with the same qualifications should be hired over a 16 year old. That's what discrimination is.
Our government seems to think that 16-year-olds shouldn't have the same rules, don't they?
fumanstan
02-05-04, 02:14 PM
Originally posted by Josh Hinkle
Maturity and life experince.
Which is a case by case basis. I haven't been paying attention so i don't know much about Clarett... but look at Lebron James and Carmelo Anthony. 19 year old kids who handeled their hype and success with maturity and poise.
chrisih8u
02-05-04, 02:15 PM
I think the NFL will have something up their sleeve if they lose. They could send teenagers to NFL Europe and use that as a "minor league".
NCMojo
02-05-04, 02:20 PM
Besides of which, you're talking about a lot of kids from poor families, who have had nothing, and you're basically telling him that he can't earn any money in his chosen field. The current system of college athlethics is fundamentally exploitative -- the schools, the professional leagues, the athletic departments, all make billions of dollars while the individual player risks permanent injury. College athletes can't sign an endorsement deal, an agent, let one of their coaches pick up the tab at dinner -- hell, they can't even hold down more than a part-time job, all while earning their programs millions of dollars.
I love college sports... but we all need to face the reality of what it has become. If a young man is capable of being drafted, if he is capable of stepping in and playing professionally, then we should be applauding him for doing so instead of castigating him for being "greedy" or "selfish".
fumanstan
02-05-04, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by Red Dog
Why must there be a reason? If I own a business, why should I not be allowed to hire whomever I want? Now being discriminatory in most cases would likely be bad for business and push me towards failure, so I would certainly choose to be open-minded. Teens entering the NBA has certainly hurt the league. The NFL is making a business decision that teens in the NFL would hurt the product.
If the NFL, and the owners presumably, all feel equally that teens would hurt their product, then why is this a big deal? If that were the case, then the kid goes undrafted. Like you said, it's a business. If i own an NFL team, shouldn't i be able to hire whoever i want to play?
I mean, i understand where you guys are coming from. But quite frankly, if the kid's not ready to play, then fine, no one drafts him. I just don't believe that such a rule should be in place.
Josh H
02-05-04, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by NCMojo
Besides of which, you're talking about a lot of kids from poor families, who have had nothing, and you're basically telling him that he can't earn any money in his chosen field.
There are other pro leagues they can go to until they are three years removed from their high school class if they don't want to do college.
Red Dog
02-05-04, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by fumanstan
If the NFL, and the owners presumably, all feel equally that teens would hurt their product, then why is this a big deal? If that were the case, then the kid goes undrafted. Like you said, it's a business. If i own an NFL team, shouldn't i be able to hire whoever i want to play?
I mean, i understand where you guys are coming from. But quite frankly, if the kid's not ready to play, then fine, no one drafts him. I just don't believe that such a rule should be in place.
The 32 current owners might think this way but what if a new owner comes in and decides he wants an 18 year old on his team. That then opens the floodgates. No - better to set the rule.
Josh H
02-05-04, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by Red Dog
The 32 current owners might think this way but what if a new owner comes in and decides he wants an 18 year old on his team. That then opens the floodgates. No - better to set the rule.
Exactly. High School to NBA success are out weighed by flops, but owners still take chances. A few have made it, so they don't want to miss out on the next Kobe or KG. Thus you get a bunch of players that aren't ready being drafted which has hurt the quality of the game.
It's a slippery slope, and I'd hate to see the same thing happen in the NFL.
Iron Chef
02-05-04, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by NCMojo
Besides of which, you're talking about a lot of kids from poor families, who have had nothing, and you're basically telling him that he can't earn any money in his chosen field.
I don't buy the bullshit entitlement argument. Who is to say that if someone is good at something, they are entitled to persue that as a career? Let's say that you're good at driving, does that entitle you to a career in motorsports? The last time I checked, people are not entitled to anything in the private sector.
They're not saying that he can't earn any money in his chosen field, they are saying that he can when his field is ready to accept him.
Originally posted by NCMojo
I love college sports... but we all need to face the reality of what it has become. If a young man is capable of being drafted, if he is capable of stepping in and playing professionally, then we should be applauding him for doing so instead of castigating him for being "greedy" or "selfish".
How exactly is Maurice Clarett not being selfish or greedy?
NCMojo
02-05-04, 03:51 PM
Chef, flip that around -- why should someone who is good at something be denied the chance to pursue it as a career? These people aren't entitled -- they are forced to work within a system that is blatantly taking advantage of them.
And this isn't just about Maurice Clarett -- it's about how changes can best be made to that system.Originally posted by Josh Hinkle
There are other pro leagues they can go to until they are three years removed from their high school class if they don't want to do college. What other pro leagues? Are you talking about the CFL? What on earth are you talking about?
Red Dog
02-05-04, 03:52 PM
They can always go slice meat at deli for 3 years :D
chrisih8u
02-05-04, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by NCMojo
Chef, flip that around -- why should someone who is good at something be denied the chance to pursue it as a career?
He can pursue it as a career. He just has to wait until 3 years after his high school class graduates to get in the NFL.
Josh H
02-05-04, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by NCMojo
And this isn't just about Maurice Clarett -- it's about how changes can best be made to that system.What other pro leagues? Are you talking about the CFL? What on earth are you talking about?
CFL, Arena football, maybe NFL Europe (not sure if they have the same rule). There's other leagues they can get paid to play in if there too stupid to hack college.
NCMojo
02-05-04, 04:03 PM
Yes, but that is three years that his family has to live in abject poverty. And that is also three years out of his professional life... if you might have to retire before you hit 30, then every year you can be a pro is money in your pocket you would not have had.
If one of my boys gets the chance to turn pro and earn millions straight out of high school... I'll be the guy weeping with happiness and throwing the biggest damn draft day party you have ever seen.
brizz
02-05-04, 04:04 PM
Just ask Marcus Taylor (you'll find him at the end of the bench in a CBA development league somewhere in South Dakota) what a great thing early entry is for the NBA. It has ruined more careers than not....easily.
I think the NFL has every right to set an age restriction for it's "employees." that's what they are....how is it different than a software company demanding 3 years experience for an opening? Or requiring a degree to fill a job? in the end, it's exactly the same thing.
NCMojo
02-05-04, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by Josh Hinkle
CFL, Arena football, maybe NFL Europe (not sure if they have the same rule). There's other leagues they can get paid to play in if there too stupid to hack college. If you go the to CFL or the AFL, you pay for almost nothing, you lose exposure, and you jeopardize your future earnings. These are not viable alternatives to the NFL.
The reality is that the NBA and the NFL are the only real professional sports leagues for basketball and football players in America.
chrisih8u
02-05-04, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by NCMojo
Yes, but that is three years that his family has to live in abject poverty.
Oh, I didnt realize your family has to live in poverty for you to play college football. Living in poverty waiting for your kid to make it in the NFL isnt a good lifestyle choice.
chrisih8u
02-05-04, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by NCMojo
If you go the to CFL or the AFL, you pay for almost nothing, you lose exposure, and you jeopardize your future earnings. These are not viable alternatives to the NFL.
Youre right. Its too bad nobody would give him a free college scholorship. Then he could have exposure.
Josh H
02-05-04, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by chrisih8u
Youre right. Its too bad nobody would give him a free college scholorship. Then he could have exposure.
Exactly.
brizz
02-05-04, 04:25 PM
^ What he said....i've lived in poverty for years while attending school/grad school.....which i wouldn't have with a full ride scholarship. they get no sympathy from me....
Mursilis
02-05-04, 06:41 PM
I'd be curious how many teams would risk drafting an 18 year-old. Compared to basketball, there are few games to evaluate the player, and there aren't many (at least that I know about) national showcase events in which high school football players can show that they're more than just better than the local competition. Seems pretty risky, moreso than drafting a high school basketball player.
jmaxlow
02-05-04, 07:13 PM
Originally posted by brizz
I think the NFL has every right to set an age restriction for it's "employees." that's what they are....how is it different than a software company demanding 3 years experience for an opening? Or requiring a degree to fill a job? in the end, it's exactly the same thing.
They aren't demanding that he have 3 years of "experience"... they're demanding that he be out of high school for a certain number of years. That's an age limit.
I don't see the big deal about a "slippery slope". If there were no such rule, those teams that don't want to draft younger players don't have to; those teams that want to could. In no way would owners be forced to fall to the overwhelming tide of 18 year old NFL draftees.
Personally I have no problem with the teams deciding not to hire kids. But to make it illegal for him to apply for the job just sounds anti-capitalist.
nickdawgy
02-05-04, 07:27 PM
Can we just skip the draft and award him to the Cowboys?
:lol:
fumanstan
02-05-04, 07:42 PM
Originally posted by jmaxlow
They aren't demanding that he have 3 years of "experience"... they're demanding that he be out of high school for a certain number of years. That's an age limit.
I don't see the big deal about a "slippery slope". If there were no such rule, those teams that don't want to draft younger players don't have to; those teams that want to could. In no way would owners be forced to fall to the overwhelming tide of 18 year old NFL draftees.
Personally I have no problem with the teams deciding not to hire kids. But to make it illegal for him to apply for the job just sounds anti-capitalist.
My thoughts exactly. A firm can set certain requirements for hiring, but they're not hard rules. There are certinaly exceptions and anomalies that would allow someone who doesn't necessarily meet the "requirement" to still obtain a job.
As for the NBA... i think the argument about early entry is debatable. Whose to say that the kids that struggled in the NBA would find success through college... or even end up getting drafted? I think there was an article a few months ago on ESPN Magazine with Kobe, McGrady, Garnett... and all of them were very adament about the skills they developed in the NBA. Sure, they're special cases, but even for those who were busts, many of them are fulfilling childhood dreams, and made good money just for being drafted.
Jericho
02-05-04, 10:24 PM
You know people blame the poor quality of the league on the amount of early entries and I just don't quite buy it. Which isn't to say that it doesn't effect quality at all. But people use it as an excuse why the whole league sucks.
Let's face it. There aren't that many high schoolers declaring for the draft each year. It's usually only 1-2 players. And after a few years, many of them have turned into the best players in the league (i.e. McGrady, Kobe, Garnett, J. O'Neal). Even if you include college freshman or sophomores, it's still not that many players. Let's face it, players have been declaring early since the 70s and no one complained about the level of play until recently.
There are currently about 435 NBA players, and probably only about 30 (or less ) came from high school including many current superstars. There are very few real projects, although there will always be failures (i.e. Darius Miles). I think the problem does way beyond a few players declaring early.
But this is an NFL thread and I have gotten off topic. The point being the early entries really aren't that bad. And in the NFL is just so much different I really can't see it being a realistic factor. Teams rarely would use high picks on underage players. They can't afford to carry non-productive players on their roster like in basketball. The draft picks are too valuable, unlike in basketball. The physical strength is just too important. And H.S. success in basketball doesn't translate nearly as well as it does in basketball. Just too many what ifs.
Realistically, I don't see this really chnaging much.
Josh H
02-06-04, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by jmaxlow
I don't see the big deal about a "slippery slope". If there were no such rule, those teams that don't want to draft younger players don't have to; those teams that want to could. In no way would owners be forced to fall to the overwhelming tide of 18 year old NFL draftees.
It's a slippery slope because once one high school kid is successful, you'll see more and more drafted just because owners don't want to miss out on the "next" one.
It's happened in the NBA, there weren't many being drafted, then you see KG, Kobe etc. have some success relatively quickly and you see more and more drafted even though these successes are still the extreme majority and teams are passing on college players that could help them immediately by taking on these "projects."
It's not a big deal in baseball as they have a minor league, but in the NBA and NFL fans get stuck watching these projects putz around until they improve or are sent packing.
Red Dog
02-06-04, 12:13 PM
Another problem is that high school kids are more likely to get bad advice and preyed on by agents. If they sign with an agent and go undrafted, they're screwed because they are then ineligible to play college football.
Jericho
02-06-04, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by Josh Hinkle
It's happened in the NBA, there weren't many being drafted, then you see KG, Kobe etc. have some success relatively quickly and you see more and more drafted even though these successes are still the extreme majority and teams are passing on college players that could help them immediately by taking on these "projects."
It's not a big deal in baseball as they have a minor league, but in the NBA and NFL fans get stuck watching these projects putz around until they improve or are sent packing.
There weren't any high schoolers in over two decades before Garnett. I'm not sure what you mean when you say there weren't many being drafted. None were drafted. Even last year, only four were in the draft, a number matched by the 2001 class. There still aren't exactly more and more. Hell there was only one in 2002 (Stoudamire).
Besides, in the NBA, teams rarely pass on sure things for projects. Look at this past draft. Besides James, all the high schoolers went late first round. Almost every player picked after them will never amount to anything anyway. Certainly no sure things.
Virtually no NFL team will waste early picks on projects, when almost anyone drafted on day one can be a starter as a rookie. Besides, what are these projects you speak of in the NFL?
Jeremy517
02-06-04, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by Jericho
There are currently about 435 NBA players, and probably only about 30 (or less ) came from high school including many current superstars. There are very few real projects, although there will always be failures (i.e. Darius Miles). I think the problem does way beyond a few players declaring early.
Darius Miles is a huge success compared to a lot of them. Remember Taj McDavid? Korleone Young? Leon Smith? DeAngelo Collins? Lenny Cooke? Giedrius Rinkevicius? Ousmane Cisse? Tony Key ? Etc.
Originally posted by Jericho
There weren't any high schoolers in over two decades before Garnett. I'm not sure what you mean when you say there weren't many being drafted. None were drafted. Even last year, only four were in the draft, a number matched by the 2001 class. There still aren't exactly more and more. Hell there was only one in 2002 (Stoudamire).
There were 4 in 2002, not 1. Only one was drafted though.
There were 5 in 2001, 4 in 2002, etc.
Jericho
02-06-04, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by Red Dog
Another problem is that high school kids are more likely to get bad advice and preyed on by agents. If they sign with an agent and go undrafted, they're screwed because they are then ineligible to play college football.
that's true. Maybe not too many high schoolers, but also college freshman and true sophomores. However, this occurs now even with upperclassman. It's a problem, but a separate one that is very difficult to eliminate.
Jericho
02-06-04, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by juiio
Darius Miles is a huge success compared to a lot of them. Remember Taj McDavid? Korleone Young? Leon Smith? DeAngelo Collins? Lenny Cooke? Giedrius Rinkevicius? Ousmane Cisse? Tony Key ? Etc.
There were 4 in 2002, not 1. Only one was drafted though.
There were 5 in 2001, 4 in 2002, etc.
Well I mean I could declare for the NBA if I wanted. Some of those players, like McDavid, were not that good. And besides, if they aren't even being drafted, they can't be ruining the level of play in the league. Pretty much all the players you listed rarely or never played
Jeremy517
02-06-04, 12:37 PM
They might not have ruined the NBA, but they ruined their basaketball lives and gave up a free education. This ruling won't just hurt the NFL, it will hurt a lot of the kids that choose to declare.
Jericho
02-06-04, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by juiio
They might not have ruined the NBA, but they ruined their basaketball lives and gave up a free education. This ruling won't just hurt the NFL, it will hurt a lot of the kids that choose to declare.
But are you going to prevent genuinely good and ready football players from the NFL just to protect the stupid?
I wouldn't feel sorry for most of the players you listed. Europe and other places will pay well for NBA failures. Hell, even the CBA is a better job than some jobs. And you're assuming these players would ever amount to anything, even with college. Or that they even could qualifty for college academically. Lot of ifs
Jeremy517
02-06-04, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by Jericho
But are you going to prevent genuinely good and ready football players from the NFL just to protect the stupid?
It isn't just stupid people that make bad decisions. If they're good enough, they'll still get there in 3 years.
Originally posted by Jericho
I wouldn't feel sorry for most of the players you listed. Europe and other places will pay well for NBA failures. Hell, even the CBA is a better job than some jobs. And you're assuming these players would ever amount to anything, even with college. Or that they even could qualifty for college academically. Lot of ifs
I'm not assuming they'll amount to anything (in the NBA or otherwise), but they'll certainly have a lot better chance.
Even if they don't qualify for college, they'll qualify for community college. After that, they might even qualify for college.
grrrah
02-06-04, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by fumanstan
Very much so, and it is my favorite sport. And i am very much against Stern implementing an age limit for the league.
So why discriminate by age? If no NFL team wants to draft a 19 year old because he's not ready, then fine. But if he's got the skills and talent at a young age, i don't see why he should be restricted. Like you said, its the same as a business. If a genius already has his masters at age 16, should he be prevented from working somewhere because of his age, even though he's as qualified as anyone else?
I am very much an NBA fan also, and basketball is my favorite sport, but the lack of an age limit and expansion is why the level of play in the NBA has gone to the crapper the past 5 years. THe kids have the skills but they lack the fundamentals of learning the team game. Imagine the league if every team played the way Sacramento and Dallas plays.
and for your example, no, this is more like hiring a HS graduate with a 4.2 GPA to be a doctor. Sure some might be able to handle it and turn out to be good doctors, but overall the hospital will turn to crap.
grrrah
02-06-04, 01:56 PM
Just to add, sure KG and Kobe are good examples of successfull players, but in my opinion they could have been much better.
Take KG vs. Duncan. KG has a lot more atheleticism, skills, etc. but Duncan is a better player and knows how to win. Kobe is great, but wouldn't have won crap if he didn't have the cast around him.
brizz
02-06-04, 01:57 PM
The remarkable thing about all of this is that it is centered on a small injury-prone punk ass bitch running back who will never amount to anything in the NFL. I could understand if it was a Herschel Walker or Bo Jackson-type RB - guys who were men among boys in college....but Clarett has proven nothing beyond a predilection to get in trouble and get hurt.
fumanstan
02-06-04, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by grrrah
Just to add, sure KG and Kobe are good examples of successfull players, but in my opinion they could have been much better.
Take KG vs. Duncan. KG has a lot more atheleticism, skills, etc. but Duncan is a better player and knows how to win. Kobe is great, but wouldn't have won crap if he didn't have the cast around him.
I don't like that argument. You can say that Duncan wouldn't have won without Robinson in 99 or the development of Tony Parker last year.
Jericho
02-06-04, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by grrrah
and for your example, no, this is more like hiring a HS graduate with a 4.2 GPA to be a doctor. Sure some might be able to handle it and turn out to be good doctors, but overall the hospital will turn to crap.
If high schoolers were on the whole crappy doctors, then hospitals wouldn't hire them. It's simple probabilities, and the hospital wouldn't take chances on young students unless they had great credentials (and maybe even not then)
It seems people want an age limit on the NFL to protect stupid people from entering early or to protect NFL teams from making stupid draft picks. That's not the point of the rule now, nor why it is being challenged. Those are just side effects, which really have nothing to do with college sophomores and freshman playing in the NFL.
You can't protect everyone from mistakes, and people should be allowed to make their own judgments, right or wrong
Jericho
02-06-04, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by grrrah
Just to add, sure KG and Kobe are good examples of successfull players, but in my opinion they could have been much better.
Take KG vs. Duncan. KG has a lot more atheleticism, skills, etc. but Duncan is a better player and knows how to win. Kobe is great, but wouldn't have won crap if he didn't have the cast around him.
I'd agree with fumanstan and say this is pretty much a crap argument. It's very one-sided and narrowly viewed.
You think they could have been much better, yet they already are among the very best players in the league. I think maybe you're just asking a bit much of these players and aren't realistic.
Then you knock the high school players. First Garnett cause he hasn't won a title, and the Kobe, even though he has 3 titles, because he was carried there. You don't think Duncan had some help too? You don't think Garnett's lack of any surrounding talent was a reason why they never won a tile (yet).
There are many great players who went to college who never won a title: Malone, Stockton, Barkley, Ewing to name a few. But yet you're very willing to knock a guy who came stright from high school because he hasn't won a title (yet). Look how long it took Olajuwon to win a title, or Robinson. And those guys probably "know how to win", whatever that exactly means.
Duncan is a great player, but he's not great simply because he went to school for 4 years. Shane Battier was a great high school propect, went to school for four years, and is a very mediocre NBA player, not nearly as good as Kobe, McGrady, Garnett, or even Lebron James.
Jericho
02-06-04, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by brizz
The remarkable thing about all of this is that it is centered on a small injury-prone punk ass bitch running back who will never amount to anything in the NFL. I could understand if it was a Herschel Walker or Bo Jackson-type RB - guys who were men among boys in college....but Clarett has proven nothing beyond a predilection to get in trouble and get hurt.
Hey I know lots of people here hate Clarett and think he sucks and never will amount to anything. So be it. But it really has nothing to do with the principle of the rule, which is what is challenged.
It seems like you'd be okay with the ruling if it was a Herschel Walker trying to break the rule. That's nonsense though. One player is irrelevant, it's the principle that counts.
Red Dog
02-06-04, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by Jericho
people should be allowed to make their own judgments, right or wrong
So why can't 32 owners collectively make a judgment that people within 3 years of HS graduation should not be eligible to play in the NFL? Right or wrong, should they not be allowed to do this?
Jericho
02-06-04, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by juiio
It isn't just stupid people that make bad decisions. If they're good enough, they'll still get there in 3 years.
Maybe, maybe not. I maintain that very few high school football players, if any, will declare. They simply won't be drafted very high (except maybe a RB). This rule is more useful to college freshman or sophomores. But no one knows if they will make it. Maybe they will be injured and never be the same. Or maybe something else will happen.
Originally posted by juiio
I'm not assuming they'll amount to anything (in the NBA or otherwise), but they'll certainly have a lot better chance.
Even if they don't qualify for college, they'll qualify for community college. After that, they might even qualify for college.
Sure, they'd have a better chance, doesn't mean anything would change. Nor is it really the NFL's responsibility to police these teenagers and make decisions for them
Jericho
02-06-04, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by Red Dog
So why can't 32 owners collectively make a judgment that people within 3 years of HS graduation should not be eligible to play in the NFL? Right or wrong, should they not be allowed to do this?
Well they can, and they did. Problem is, it violates federal law. I can make my own decisions, but if they violate federal law, I will be punished too.
Look, I don't hate the rule. As an NFL fan, I doubt that few players underage really want to declare early and/or are physically mature. Even if someone could handle it, they'd likely be better served by waiting an extra year or two to imrpove their draft position (and cash payments).
I just don't think there's anything really wrong with letting people have the freedom to do what they want. This isn't basketball, the sports are too different. I doubt the game would change much, if at all. There's really nothing wrong with letting people have the freedom to have options. Options they'd have in any other field.
Red Dog
02-06-04, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by Jericho
Well they can, and they did. Problem is, it violates federal law. I can make my own decisions, but if they violate federal law, I will be punished too.
Well yeah - notwithstanding that. It probably violates the law, but then I find it to be a crappy law.
I just don't think there's anything really wrong with letting people have the freedom to do what they want.
And I think freedom should work both ways. Freedom for the employer and freedom for the employee. Unfortunately, our government severely restricts the freedom of the former.
Josh H
02-06-04, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by Red Dog
Well yeah - notwithstanding that. It probably violates the law, but then I find it to be a crappy law.
I agree. I hate laws like this, affirmative action, etc. With the exception of jobs that are paid with tax dollars, employers should be able to hire or not hire whoever they want for whatever reasons they want IMO.
Jericho
02-06-04, 03:49 PM
Originally posted by Red Dog
Well yeah - notwithstanding that. It probably violates the law, but then I find it to be a crappy law.
And I think freedom should work both ways. Freedom for the employer and freedom for the employee. Unfortunately, our government severely restricts the freedom of the former.
You should write your Congressman! :)
Normally an employer at least has some freedoms, although here the NFL is a monopoly. Which isn't the NFL's fault, but does make them follow certain rules. I can see why its not exactly fair to the NFL, but what are you going to do?
Red Dog
02-06-04, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by Jericho
You should write your Congressman! :)
Normally an employer at least has some freedoms, although here the NFL is a monopoly. Which isn't the NFL's fault, but does make them follow certain rules. I can see why its not exactly fair to the NFL, but what are you going to do?
I've written Jim Moron, oops that's Moran ;) , about several issues, not that it will change his position on anything. My only real hope is that the 2nd Circuit reverses the lower court ruling.
There's little doubt that they are the biggest winners in this.
MrX
02-20-04, 01:54 PM
Looks like Clarett is already killing his draft position by refusing to work out at the combine and not working out for teams until 3 weeks before the draft. Coming to the combine at fullback weight probably didn't help matters.
http://www.suntimes.com/output/football/cst-spt-bside20.html
Evaluators not really amused by Clarett
February 20, 2004
BY MIKE MULLIGAN Staff Reporter
INDIANAPOLIS -- Maurice Clarett looked like a man without a care in the world Thursday as he laughed and joked his way through a lively news conference on opening day of the NFL scouting combine.
But Clarett's decision not to work out for coaches and personnel evaluators miffed many of the people who will decide when to take a chance on the former Ohio State running back, who successfully sued his way into the draft.
"If I am him, I'm thinking I have to show these guys I'm ready to play,'' Bears director of college scouting Greg Gabriel said. "He hasn't played in two years now. He's telling us he's not ready to play. If he's not physically ready to play, why would you waste a draft pick on him.''
Clarett will not work out with other running backs today and has turned down a chance to work out at Ohio State during the school's workout day next month. He said he will run and lift for scouts in the first week of April, about three weeks before the draft.
"That's a farce,'' Buffalo Bills general manager Tom Donahoe said. "That was expected, but it's ridiculous.''
Clarett said he hasn't hired an agent yet -- though he admitted Jimmy Sexton is high on his list -- but that advisers have recommended he not work out until April. Clarett said he weighed in at 237 and planned to drop seven pounds before showing his stuff to the NFL.
"I'm kicking it up in the next four weeks,'' he said. "I want to put myself in the best position possible.''
Clarett wore a huge smile and broke out in laughter several times during a 15-minute interview session with a large media contingent at the Indianapolis Convention Center. He found one overeager reporter from Cleveland particularly amusing, breaking out in laughter whenever the guy asked him a question.
At one point, Clarett was asked if the money he'll make in the NFL would change him.
"It'll change my address,'' he said.
In another amusing exchange, he was asked if he is worried that his advisers are using his situation to promote themselves?
"My mother?'' he said.
Your mother?
"Yeah, my mother,'' he said.
Who gave you the advice not to work out?
"My mother,'' he said.
Clarett set a school record for a freshman with 1,237 yards and 16 touchdowns two seasons ago while leading Ohio State to the national championship, but he was ruled ineligible last season because of problems in the classroom and off the field. He won a lawsuit earlier this month that makes him the first true sophomore allowed to enter the NFL draft.
He laughed again when asked if he feels like a pioneer.
"I don't really think in that mind-set,'' Clarett said. "A lot of those things, I couldn't control what went on. I'm just thinking like I'm somebody else in the draft. I'm not looking at it like I was a groundbreaker of any type. I'm just hoping some ballclub gives me the same opportunity they give someone else.''
The Bears are among the teams rumored to be interested in Clarett, mainly because they hired his former running backs coach at Ohio State, Tim Spencer, for Lovie Smith's new staff. But Clarett is more of a between-the-tackles runner, and the Bears are looking to add speed at the position.
Clarett was asked repeated questions about his durability -- he has had ankle, knee and shoulder problems -- and his character, including a well-publicized false police report filed when his car was broken into.
What kind of person will the team that drafts Clarett be getting?
"I don't know, cool?'' he said. "I'm a lot cooler than what y'all think. A lot of people thought I talked more than I do. I don't really talk too loud or talk too much, but the way it's painted on TV, it's like I'm arrogant or cocky.
"I'm a quiet individual. You can go back in history with any of my coaches. I really don't say much. Lead by example, work hard day-in, day-out, go 200 percent at every practice.''
brizz
02-20-04, 02:08 PM
Now ESPN radio is saying that he's leaving the combine altogether now...what an idiot....
Red Dog
02-20-04, 02:13 PM
I hope this idiot drops like a rock in the draft.
wildcatlh
02-20-04, 02:23 PM
Why am I getting a bad feeling that he's setting up a fall in the draft to set up a possible collusion lawsuit to say the teams are conspiring not to draft the younger players?
Jeremy517
02-20-04, 02:28 PM
He's still going to get drafted, it just might be in a mid to late round. The only way he'd win that lawsuit would be if he wasn't drafted at all.
B.A.
02-20-04, 03:21 PM
Someone should give him the phone number for NFL Europe.
Some people are too stupid for their own good. -ohbfrank-
MrX
02-20-04, 04:51 PM
According to ESPN USC's Mike Williams is taking advantage of the rule now now and going pro.
Canadian Bacon
02-20-04, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by Red Dog
I hope this idiot drops like a rock in the draft. not me, I want him to be stuck on the worst team possible, of course San Francisco could always draft him in the later rounds ;)
Jeremy517
02-20-04, 04:59 PM
Mike Williams should definitely go ahead of Fitzgerald, in my opinion.
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