HoosierPapa

When Bilbo used the ring (both in the Hobbit and in FOTR), did he make that "connection" with Sauron that Frodo did whenever he used it? It seemed that Bilbo took it on and off without any real issues. But at the same time, Gandalf caught a glimpse of the eye when he went to pick it up after Bilbo dropped it and left Bag End. Seems weird that Bilbo was able to avoid this when using it.

Cusm

I think Bilbo had the ring before Sauron was ready to take it back. I think Gandolf saw the eye becasue he is a wizard and has a connection to Sauron. When Frodo gets the ring, Sauron is then looking for it.

diacritic

Also, Bilbo was completely ignorant of the ring's power. He was so innocent and naive that the ring had none of its evil powers over him.

Groucho

I disagree. Look at his reaction when Frodo won't let him hold the ring in Rivendell.

diacritic

perhaps so, but isn't that after he discovers the ring's true power? But I'm just trying to point to textual evidence.

The most likely explanation is that Tolkien himself didn't know the true power of the ring until much after the Hobbit was written.

Seeker

the "eye of Sauron" looking for the ring is revisionist in that when Tolkien wrote the Hobbit, it wasn't involved. Tolkien even rewrote the gollum/Bilbo scene after the fact to show it was the one ring.

Now, given that, one can still "explain" Bilbo's lack of problem with the ring with the explanation (already stated) that Sauron wasn't looking for the ring when Bilbo had it.

As for innocence - the ring had it's OWN personality and evil, and yes, that did affect Bilbo - he didn't want to let it go, even in the Shire.

diacritic

but again, if we forget that Tolkien never imagined the ring's power when writing the hobbit, the ring -- as an independent personality -- is only powerful when it has a hold over an impressionable psyche. Men and wizards are easily deceived by the ring which is why they fall under its spell in a matter of seconds. Hobbits -- like Bilbo, Frodo, and even Gollum -- are less susceptible to this power (which is why Gollum can hold it for 500 years, and why Bilbo is never really "possessed" by the ring).

Frodo, though quite naive, fears its power, and knows that Sauron is watching. The knowledge of Sauron is what allows Frodo to see him and Sauron see him.... Reciprocal knowledge is necessary for this mirrored effect of seeing/being seen.

And anyway, Bilbo perhaps does desire the ring, but it does not mean that he sees the eye. At the beginning of FOTR he puts it on quite freely without any affect, though when Gandalf touches it he sees the eye immediately.

JohnL

In the book, the time span from Bilbo's "going away" party until Gandalf returns with the suspicion that it's the One Ring is seventeen years. And then Frodo shilly-shallys for six months before finally hitting the road. For drama, the film implies that the time span is much shorter. But in the seventeen years, Sauron's rise advanced significantly. That's probably the best in-story explanation. Out of story, Tolkien had not foreseen his eventual uses for the ring when he wrote The Hobbit. So Bilbo's relationship to the ring comes from the earlier book where invisibility is the ring's only property; whereas Frodo's relationship is based on the more complex definition of the ring used in LOTR.

diacritic

Actually, looking back at the book, it does indeed appear that Bilbo sees an eye. This is just before he leaves Bag-End for good. And it does indeed indicate that Sauron's power is only now starting to recover:

"Bilbo drew his hands over his eyes. 'I am sorry,' he said. 'But I felt so queer. And yet it would be a relief in a way not to be bothered with it any more. It has been so growing on my mind lately. Sometimes I have felt it was like an eye looking at me...." (34).

caligulathegod

If I'm not mistaken and that quote aside, the "Eye" seeing the wearer and vice versa is an invention of the films intended to better display the threat and "character" of the Ring. I don't believe that even Frodo saw an "Eye" when he wore the Ring. The closest a character came to seeing the Eye was in the Palantir.

DaveNinja

Did Frodo see the "eye" before he was stabbed at Weathertop?

diacritic

I think you're wrong, as the "Breaking of the Fellowship" chapter shows when Frodo puts on the ring to escape Boromir:

"And suddenly he felt the Eye. There was an eye in the Dark Tower that did not sleep. He knew that it had become aware of his gaze. A fierce eager will was there. It leaped towards him; almost like a finger hefelt it, searching for him. . . ." (392)

caligulathegod

That's right and I'd almost forgotten, but that actually had more to do with the place they were at. Amon Hen is a place also known as the Hill of Sight or the Seat of Seeing. In the days of old they used to go to the site to survey the Southern Kingdom and Tolkien suggests that while wearing the Ring at that particular location, Frodo's "sight" was focused that much more sharply towards the East and Mordor, and also that the East could see him. The film expands this concept so that it seems to happen everytime the Ring is worn. My own opinion is that when Frodo sees the Eye and it "sees" him, it is more metaphor for the evil inherent in the Ring than a literal representation of Sauron actually seeing him. In the books, Sam actually wears the Ring practically IN Mordor. Sauron doesn't see him, and in fact never sees Frodo with the Ring until he claims it at Sammath Naur.

diacritic

that is very well said. the location plays a large role, but if I remember correctly sam never wears the ring (so the eye would not see him) and in the mount doom chapter when the eye is fixated on the west, this happens:

"'The ring is mine!' And suddenly, as he set it on his finger, he vanished from Sam's sight. . . . as Frodo put on the ring and claimed it for his own . . . the tower trembled from its foundations to its proud and bitter crown. The Dark Lord was suddenly aware of him, and his Eye piercing all shadows looked across the plain to the door he had made. . . " etc. etc.

so there are at least three instances where the wearing of the ring immediately catches the attention of the eye.

edit: yes sam does put on the ring, but when he does put it on "he knew that somewhere an Eye was searching for him" but whether this is because it is something he feels or something he knows from experience is unclear in the context.

diacritic

when sam puts it on a second time:

"Immediately he felt the great burden of its weight . . . but now more strong and urgent than ever, the malice of the eye of mordor, searching, . . ." etc etc.

caligulathegod

That's two. One at Amon Hen and the other at Sammath Naur. Both of those are specific for how and why the Eye sees him. Sam feels the malice of the Eye (read:Sauron not literally the Eye looking at him) and that it is searching but not necessarily does he actually see the Eye nor does it see him. If Sauron did see Sam then he would have sent the Nazgul right away. As it is, the Nazgul only go when Frodo claims the Ring. This is definitely metaphor and the line is taken out of context. The Bilbo line is also not literal. Read the rest of the paragraph. He is saying that the Ring itself is like an eye looking at him, not that he feels an Eye looking at him when he wears it. He's commenting on how it always seems to be on his mind, like someone in the room staring at him, making its presence known.

I'm not saying they don't feel the evil of Sauron when they wear the Ring. I'm just saying that they don't see the Eye like they just turned on a Nextel phone and just called him.

diacritic

With sam, sauron may very well see him, but this does not necessarily mean that he knows where exactly sam is in Middle Earth. But then again, when Frodo puts it on the eye focuses straight onto the Crack of Doom. With Frodo it could be because he has part of the nazgul within him. Sam has no psychological bond with the ring which would make it harder for Sauron to pinpoint his location.

But there's no convincing you, eh? I agree that the panoptic eye is certainly symbolic (and even in the film I read the seeing eye as a visual metaphor). The eye may not see, but it certainly feels and Tolkien makes this known using metaphors of sight whenever the ring is put on -- I think there is a good reason he does this. I agree that the only time that the eye actually sees is at Amon Hen and through the Palantir (and I guess galadriel's mirror). But still, Tolkien is drilling into the reader's mind the relationship between the ring and Sauron's panopticism. And anyway, is not the ring shaped as an eye? The ring is the only thing that gives Sauron any empirical materiality, so when the ring is put to use there is no doubt that Sauron's spirit (his eye) will see. But still, your points are well-heeded.

caligulathegod

It never actually says that the Eye sees Sam, though. In both instances where Sam puts on the Ring (sorry, can't remember if there were more, I just reviewed the quotes you provided) it says that Sam feels an eye searching but it never says that it sees him. Sauron sees Frodo at the Crack of Doom because he claims it. That's an important point. In the books, the only time it's ever stated that Sauron sees him (not just can't get a bead on him) is the two instances we mentioned. Problem is, in a film, things must be shown and in a book they must be read. They can't say, "I feel an evil when I wear the Ring" in the film,they have to show it. Unfortunately, that comes across as more literal than probably intended. It's quite possible in the films that it might be more literal, but then it opens up such questions as originated this thread or why Sauron didn't just send a NAzgul everytime Frodo put on the Ring. I prefer (*opinion) to still view it as in the books and nothing in the film directly contradicts that. The Eye they see is the presence of the malice of Sauron in the Ring rather than a direct line to the big guy himself. Sauron only knows that a halfling has the Ring because he tortured it out of Gollum, not the 50 years that Bilbo wore the Ring or that Frodo wears it in Bree. So that allows the book's representation to work for the film, too.

When in doubt, go to Tolkien. Unless something in the film directly contradicts the books, I believe the books can be a decent resource for questions about the film/story.

diacritic

Well said and I agree with you here. This is what i've been trying to say: they don't physically "see" an eye on a dark tower, but they do see an eye as a mental image -- and it is an image that connects the mind of the ring-wearer to the psyche of the ring.

Sam and Bilbo "see" the eye at a distance because they have not formed a pyschological bond with the ring/sauron. With Frodo, obviously, it is much different for all the reasons we have mentioned.

Anyway I think we are in agreement more than we are in disagreement. What i'm trying to work, in my own study of the book, is in what ways the ring affects the bearer psychologically.

Also I am trying to figure out the relationship between magic and technology. It is possible to read the ring as a technological (rather than merely a magical) creation. So then what does it "contain" and how is it that it has such an effect on whoever bears it. (This I can relate to a critique of industrialism/capitalism).

caligulathegod

That I agree with. What you say reminds me of something L Ron Hubbard did. He had an epiphany that there were certain images that if a person saw them, they would be put into a reverie and would be more accepting of what was told to them (I am simplifying big time, here). One such image was that of a volcano exploding. When a person saw the image of a volcano exploding then he would be more receptive to his "truth". This is why Dianetics has a volcano on its cover. The Eye is an effective image for portraying the owner of the Ring to the current wearer. My issue is, of course, whether it was a literal contact with Sauron, which I don't believe it is. Now, looking at it from your perspective and intergrating mine into it, did Bilbo see the Eye (that is, an Image of the Eye if not indeed Sauron himself) when he perceived its evil? This is a good question. I tend to believe no. He didn't seem to indicate such a thing although he most definitely went into the wraithworld dimension when he wore it. Now, I wouldn't be opposed to your theory concerning a psychological bond that occurs between the wearer and Sauron even if it's not a direct connection where he saw the wearer and the wearer saw him. As you say, Sam and Bilbo don't have that complete connection like Frodo has. Why does not Bilbo have it, considering he had the Ring much longer and wore it more often than Frodo? Simple answer (which might address the OP): Sauron hadn't starting looking for it, yet. I'm away from my copy of ROTK's appendices, but I believe that It was some time between the time that Bilbo went away and Gandalf showed up at Frodo's (a 17 year gap, in the books) that Gollum was captured by Sauron. This made Sauron's search more active (rather than the aimless searching of the Gladden Fields by his servants, as recounted in Unfinished Tales) and might have remotely turned the "evil switch" on in the Ring, allowing Frodo to see an image of Sauron.


As to the Tech question, I was watching a doc on Tolkien on Trio tonight and Chris Tolkien addressed that specifically. He said it was indeed a metaphor for technology. I wish I could quote him directly.

Big Boy Laroux

interesting posts, guys... i have one question about the movie (and yes, I loved the movies and the books).

why in the hell does jackson make the eye appear to be a huge spotlight? like the eye can only see approximately a 25 sq. ft. area?

RoboDad

I can only guess that it was done for dramatic impact. Much of what is described in the books is in terms of impressions that the characters have. Such impressions are impossible to convey visually, so some more literal transalation must occur. I believe that the "spotlight" effect was an attempt to convey the following description from the book: