I like Tom Cruise, and I liked this movie, I just couldnt help but feel he wasnt right for this film. At the end I mentioned something to my wife and she exclaimed that she was just about to say that.
I know the story revolves around the attempt to Westernize Japan, and obviously Cruise is a legitimate part of that story, but I would not have minded if the story had been all Japanese and dealt with the Westernization as simply the impetous for the Samurai to fight back. Not really even needing Cruises sharacter. It just seems Hollywood feels nobody will go see a movie with an entirely foreign cast, that audiences need an American face to get them in the theaters, and they may be right, but he still seemed stiff and out of place in this film. Why is it soo much of what Cruise does seems to fall into the category of vanity role?
Jackskeleton
12-07-03, 05:38 PM
What is the deal with all this tom cruise bashing? Since when has tom cruise been a Bad actor or a simple target for folks to piss on?
The story was in need of an american character in the whole westernization of japan. simple as that. you really can't westernize any place without a character from the west. It was great if you ask me. a certain Old meets the new much like his sword had inscribed.
Cruise did well. I don't think it's a matter of no one in america willing to watch an all foreign cast, as much as it needs those characters to show the change that the outside world brings.
I would beg to think that most folks are bashing on cruise now simply because it is the hip thing to do. I asked a couple of friends if they would like to see the film with me, a majority responded with "It looks cheesy because of cruise".. :whofart:
What has he done that was cheesy? he was very manly in Magnolia. He was pimping it in risky business, he was in top gun for goodness sakes, a dope ass vampire in interview with... and so much more. So what is it with all this hatin' for no reason when it comes to cruise?
Patman
12-07-03, 05:49 PM
I look at it this way: without Tom Cruise, this film probably never gets made, for that, I'm grateful for Mr. Cruise.
rushmore223
12-07-03, 05:52 PM
Where did I piss on Tom Cruise?! I started off by saying that I LIKE TOM CRUISE! If you cant pay attention to what I say in my post, than don't respond. I simply said he felt very out of place and stiff in the film.
Jack, please actually read my post, and not just the topic headline.
QuiGonJosh
12-07-03, 06:01 PM
I thought he was perfect for the role...
Jackskeleton
12-07-03, 06:04 PM
Originally posted by rushmore223
Where did I piss on Tom Cruise?! I started off by saying that I LIKE TOM CRUISE! If you cant pay attention to what I say in my post, than don't respond. I simply said he felt very out of place and stiff in the film.
Jack, please actually read my post, and not just the topic headline.
And if you can't take criticism then I would suggest not posting, forums will express views of the many that may or may not be the same as your own. Not to mention the often case where thread topics extend beyond what they originally were started to talk about adding new topics that relate to the central topic.
If you notice, I didn't point you as the target of the cruise pissing, but it was a carry over from the other last samurai thread in which folks were a little sketchy and worried about the film simply because it had cruise in it.
I responded to your topic in my response in a fair manner.
rushmore223
12-07-03, 06:17 PM
A Carry over? Well that makes it seem a bit out of context then doesnt it? Maybe if your gonna go on the offensive you should have kept that comment on that thread. Seems like most every time you bother to make a comment on a thread, it's to make a threadcrap.
If thats how you enjoy yourself, than far be it from me to stop you...have fun
Lethal Nemesis
12-07-03, 06:22 PM
I'm not entirely sure if the movie would have been "better" without Tom Cruise, but I thought one of the reasons the movie was very appealing was the rebirth of a broken down Westerner in a Japanese culture. (And yes, I know that this type of thing has been done in other movies as well).
So if there were no Westerner in the movie, it would not have necessarily been better or worse, it would have been a different movie altogether, IMO.
Corvin
12-07-03, 06:24 PM
Originally posted by Patman
I look at it this way: without Tom Cruise, this film probably never gets made, for that, I'm grateful for Mr. Cruise.
:thumbsup:
rushmore223
12-07-03, 06:27 PM
True Nemesis, I simply brought up the changing of the story to not include an American because I doubted the movie would have been made without a recognizable american face. I don't actually mind the character being the center of the story, I just felt Cruise seemed out of place, even though I have admired much of his work in the past. Especially Minority Report. He just seemed to lose interest in the film halfway through. I still quite liked the movie, don't feel it should be inundated with oscars or anything, but I enjoyed it.
Jackskeleton
12-07-03, 06:30 PM
Originally posted by rushmore223
A Carry over? Well that makes it seem a bit out of context then doesnt it? Maybe if your gonna go on the offensive you should have kept that comment on that thread. Seems like most every time you bother to make a comment on a thread, it's to make a threadcrap.
If thats how you enjoy yourself, than far be it from me to stop you...have fun
Yes, because all I ever respond with is a thread crap.. -rolleyes- listen, it was on topic because this is a "would it work better without cruise". I brought in my views and also added a question, why all the cruise bashing as of late? it was even more so a "carry over" from out side the forum. Something I have noticed, as I pointed out, outside of the forum. So in bringing it to a live discussion, one in which the topic of cruise presence making it better or worse is what I would consider fair game.
Now the thread title in itself leaves a big opening for what might be considered thread crapping because you are going to be asking for two different views. If the person does indeed share the belief that it could have been better without cruise and why? or if the film was good as it was, and why?. If I take the view that you are not on, I'm on the opposing view and of course anything I say might be considered a sort of thread crap to you because you are on the other end.
Now if I came in the thread and simply said "this discussion is worse then the "who would win in a fight? Cruise or any legendary actor" then perhaps I can see how you see my response as a thread crap, but when I'm responding to your thread as well as adding new discussion to it by posing a new question then I don't see how you can consider it a threadcrap besides the fact that I do not share your point of view on the said matter.
rushmore223
12-07-03, 06:46 PM
Ugh... Wish I never posted this.
Simply posed a question and a viewpoint. Looked forward to who agreed or dis-agreed, but not to be accussed of something I did not do. (which it certainly seemed to me you were doing, even though you clarified in a later post.)
seems like you had a major axe to grind.
rushmore223
12-07-03, 06:47 PM
Maybe this thread title should be changed to JackSkelton Vs. Rushmore223
Drop
12-07-03, 06:48 PM
This question puzzles me. I can't even imagine this film without Cruise. I think he did an awesome job and really was his character. Not once did I think, "Hey that's Tom Cruise up there, he sticks out too much" or "He is wrong for the role" or "Why is there a westerner in this foreign film?". I think he really worked, his look in the film and how he acted fit in very perfectly, he was the antithesis(or is that foil?) of Katsumoto. In other words, he and his character were vital to the story.
Patman also has the right idea about Cruise not being in it, there is no way it would've got made.
rushmore223, i believe your problem lies with the story not with Cruise. Therefor this thread might be better titled: "Last Samurai - Better without the character Nathan Algren?". Which I would not agree with.
Pants
12-07-03, 06:50 PM
American actors can't play period films. They should have gotten an English actor, even if he played American. The English are better at period films, American's always look awkward.
Look at Daniel Day Lewis. He does a better job playing a period American in Last of the Mohicans, Age of Innocence, and Gangs of New York than all the authentic American actors in those pictures combined. They're just better at it those Brits.
Kal-El
12-07-03, 06:52 PM
I think Cruise nailed it. (And Taka too, after the movie of course)
:D
Plus, the guy put how much time to make this? What was his last movie before this? You gotta respect the effort at least.
rushmore223
12-07-03, 06:57 PM
Well, Maybe I didnt word it right. I at one point was bringing up the possibility of the story being told from a different vantage point. Like perhaps (cant remember his name) Algrens Samurai Abductor/friend. As an argument that , in order for this film to be made, needed a American in the starring role. But, with the story as it was...
...I felt Cruise was still stiff and out of place. Thought that maybe a different actor might be better suited, at least in my eyes, not sure who I would pick though.
jaeufraser
12-07-03, 07:03 PM
I thought Tommy did a superb job in the role. But I can sympathize with some of the complaints against Tom Cruise, but I think it has nothing to do with him as an actor, but as a star. It really is something he can't do anything about, but the size of his celebrity makes it all the more difficult to sometimes lose yourself into Cruise as a character. but honestly, in Cruise's quality movies, which I can say are more plentiful than not, he really he quite able in making me do just that: believe him as that character. I think it's a testament to his acting ability that he is able to overcome such a hurdle so successfully (save for oh...mission impossible 2).
Jackskeleton
12-07-03, 07:39 PM
Originally posted by rushmore223
Well, Maybe I didnt word it right. I at one point was bringing up the possibility of the story being told from a different vantage point. Like perhaps (cant remember his name) Algrens Samurai Abductor/friend. As an argument that , in order for this film to be made, needed a American in the starring role. But, with the story as it was...
...I felt Cruise was still stiff and out of place. Thought that maybe a different actor might be better suited, at least in my eyes, not sure who I would pick though.
Well I can understand that. May I ask who you might have considered more fit to play the role? I saw that cruise does carry himself a bit on a high horse, but that is the typical character he plays. it's what he comes accross, perhaps because he has been in so many "I'm higher then you" roles he has been in that has been inprinted in our minds.
rushmore223
12-07-03, 07:46 PM
Thats my problem Jack, I am honestly not sure who I would put in this role. Sometimes a star carries too much baggage with him into a role. Ya know, too recognizable, I would like to think I can look past that. When I try to think of a different actor, my mind is too muddied from the films I have seen most recently, like I dont wanna give a response like Viggo Mortensen, just cause I know when I say that it is only because of all my LOTR watching.
I will say this, if it could only be made with Cruise, than I am glad it got made.
movielib
12-07-03, 07:52 PM
There was nothing wrong with Cruise. There was much wrong with the script in the final third of the movie.
Kumar J
12-07-03, 07:54 PM
I would have put Kevin Costner.He would have nailed it.
Pants
12-07-03, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by Jackskeleton
May I ask who you might have considered more fit to play the role? Daniel Day Lewis playing it as an American.
syphon00
12-08-03, 02:37 PM
got no problem with tom being in this movie, I'm always impressed by an actor's dedication to the role
and cruise always gives it a 110%
I thought the casting was perfect! especailly the japanese cast
I'm so glad they didn't use the typical bastardized Asian American actors that plays anything from chinese, korean, japanese, to philipino, not gonna mention names but u know who I'm talking about
grrrah
12-08-03, 04:42 PM
Mel Gibson
;)
mee2
12-08-03, 05:31 PM
We can argue about this until we're all blue in the face, but we'll never agree on who we'd like to have played the role. The fact of the matter is that Cruise was chosen as the lead, he did a helluva job, and the final product was "IMO" a masterpiece thanks to an excellent supporting cast and director.
Shoulda, woulda, coulda.....
metaridley
12-08-03, 08:16 PM
Originally posted by mee2
We can argue about this until we're all blue in the face, but we'll never agree on who we'd like to have played the role. The fact of the matter is that Cruise was chosen as the lead, he did a helluva job, and the final product was "IMO" a masterpiece thanks to an excellent supporting cast and director.
Shoulda, woulda, coulda.....
I couldn't have said it better myself. Tom Cruise did a great job in this movie, possibly his best performance ever.
jarofclay73
12-08-03, 08:27 PM
Originally posted by rushmore223
It just seems Hollywood feels nobody will go see a movie with an entirely foreign cast, that audiences need an American face to get them in the theaters, and they may be right, but he still seemed stiff and out of place in this film.
I think Cruise is supposed to be a little stiff and out of place in a film about the Japanese people.
Anyway, since this is a film for mostly the Western world, you needed a Caucasian character to help the audience feel the difference from a post-war America to a post-feudal Japan. Cruise's character was there mainly for contrast.
Shilex
12-08-03, 11:36 PM
I liked Cruise in this movie, even if he did tend to Cruise it up at times.
Only problem is that sometimes he just seems a tad too pristine and modern to be in a period piece.
I can't help but wonder what the movie would have been like if Russell Crowe or Guy Pierce were in it.
BlackBeauty92
12-09-03, 12:48 AM
Originally posted by Shilex
I liked Cruise in this movie, even if he did tend to Cruise it up at times.
Only problem is that sometimes he just seems a tad too pristine and modern to be in a period piece.
that's exactly what Ebert said in his review (about 2 weeks ago)
i haven't seen the movie, so i can't really say anything about it... yet
Giantrobo
12-09-03, 04:08 AM
Tom Cruise and his cocky vibe is the only thing keeping me from running out and seeing this movie. I'll wait and see it later.
Otherwise I would been there opening night.
mee2
12-09-03, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by Giantrobo
Tom Cruise and his cocky vibe is the only thing keeping me from running out and seeing this movie. I'll wait and see it later.
Otherwise I would been there opening night.
Hmm, i'm probably the manliest man on this board, so manly that i've been known to spray other men's recliner chairs, i can detect cockiness from a mile away. Yet i sensed no "cocky vibe" from Cruise last Friday.....The coast is clear my fellow Alpha male....
Cosmic Bus
12-09-03, 07:03 PM
I like Cruise, too, but thought he wasn't right at all for the role. While I enjoyed the movie quite a bit, he was never convincing as the Civil War vet or the 'fish out of water.'
The pristine and modern comment is dead-on, IMO.
jekbrown
12-09-03, 07:07 PM
cruise's character is vital to the story... not sure if the plot would be nearly as interesting without him. I mean, if he seemed out of place....that WAS the point...
j
mee2
12-09-03, 07:13 PM
You all missed the real flaw with the casting of an "American" Civil War Hero. At that time America was not the respected world power it is today, and their army was considered nothing more that a band of renegades and guerillas. If Japan wanted a certifiable commander at arms, they would've employed a German, French or Spanish soldier, not a lowly Captain from a
rag-tag army.
chucks888
12-09-03, 08:17 PM
Originally posted by Jackskeleton
What has he done that was cheesy?
Mission Impossible 2.
Burzmali
12-09-03, 10:50 PM
Originally posted by mee2
You all missed the real flaw with the casting of an "American" Civil War Hero. At that time America was not the respected world power it is today, and their army was considered nothing more that a band of renegades and guerillas. If Japan wanted a certifiable commander at arms, they would've employed a German, French or Spanish soldier, not a lowly Captain from a
rag-tag army.
The film deals with that...
If you listened you would have heard that they wanted to hire a German but eventually decided on Algren because of his experience with putting down A) rebellions, and B) tribes of American Indians without modern weaponry.
isamu
12-09-03, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by Jackskeleton
What is the deal with all this tom cruise bashing? Since when has tom cruise been a Bad actor or a simple target for folks to piss on?
The story was in need of an american character in the whole westernization of japan. simple as that. you really can't westernize any place without a character from the west. It was great if you ask me. a certain Old meets the new much like his sword had inscribed.
Cruise did well. I don't think it's a matter of no one in america willing to watch an all foreign cast, as much as it needs those characters to show the change that the outside world brings.
I would beg to think that most folks are bashing on cruise now simply because it is the hip thing to do. I asked a couple of friends if they would like to see the film with me, a majority responded with "It looks cheesy because of cruise".. :whofart:
What has he done that was cheesy? he was very manly in Magnolia. He was pimping it in risky business, he was in top gun for goodness sakes, a dope ass vampire in interview with... and so much more. So what is it with all this hatin' for no reason when it comes to cruise?
I haven't seen TLS yet but I wholeheartedly agree TC gets bashed way too much in this fourum! He's one of the best actors that ever lived IMNSHO!!! Want proof? Watch either Born of the 4th of July or A Few Good Men.
mee2
12-10-03, 12:47 AM
Originally posted by Burzmali
The film deals with that...
If you listened you would have heard that they wanted to hire a German but eventually decided on Algren because of his experience with putting down A) rebellions, and B) tribes of American Indians without modern weaponry.
It's kind of a Hollywood cop-out. the French were much more notorious with thei handling/killing of Native Indians at that time. They pretty much wiped out all indians from Canada, and a respecable amount in America as well...
DieselsDen
12-10-03, 02:58 AM
I think rushmore223 is right. THE LAST SAMURAI seemed like an artistic compromise because of the miscasting of Tom Cruise. I happen to think he's an okay actor (better than say, Keanu Reeves) but I didn't care for him at all in this flick.
isamu
12-14-03, 04:09 PM
I think it would have been much better without Cruise and iinstead Uma Thurman had played Algren.
Geofferson
12-14-03, 07:42 PM
Originally posted by isamu
I think it would have been much better without Cruise and iinstead Uma Thurman had played Algren.
;)
FWIW, I thought Cruise did a good job and I liked his character in the movie.
Original Desmond
12-29-03, 07:14 AM
i'm definitely sticking up for Jackieboy in this one, he's my boy
Rushmore, you've been Punkd ! :)
Cruise rocked, so did the film so ner
Deckard-10
01-01-04, 08:43 AM
I'm not a big Cruise fan, but I thought he did a pretty good job.   I ended up enjoying the film a lot more than I thought I would.
Vegas9203
01-01-04, 10:46 AM
I'll probably wait for DVD on this one. I'm not sure if I can buy TC in a period piece. I think he's done amazing work in Jerry Maguire, Vanilla Sky and a bunch of other movies... I just don't see the Civil War era TC.
Fok
01-01-04, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by Deckard-10
I'm not a big Cruise fan, but I thought he did a pretty good job.   I ended up enjoying the film a lot more than I thought I would.
I agree, I was quite suprised on how well he did. The only Cruise movies I have are Top Gun and Jerry McGuire. I'll probably add this one to the collection, but that will be it.
Dr. DVD
01-02-04, 09:08 AM
I really liked the movie, but didn't feel Cruise worthy of a Best Actor nom in the slightest.
I will aslo say that it is pretty obvious that without him the movie would never have gotten a greenlight, so I can't complain about that either.
What I didn't like was The fact that Tom Cruise's character was the one who survived the battle at the end. Seeing as how he was getting so wrapped up in the Samurai culture, wouldn't it make sense for him to take his own life after defeat in battle and die next to his mentor, Katsumoto?
jough
01-04-04, 02:51 AM
I thought this would've been a perfect comeback role for Patrick Swayze.
However, Cruise was wonderful. This film really surprised me. I thought it was magnificent (up until the last ten minutes).
Buy: