Help me understand the DVD piracy mindset.. [Archive]

calhoun07

11-23-03, 12:39 AM

I was talking tonight to somebody about Pirates of the Caribbean and how I want to get it when it comes out and what a great DVD it will be and all, and of course it will probably be 14.99 or 15.99 when it comes out. He said, as if he was proud, that he already downloaded it and burned it and watched it. I know that copy cannot be as good as the DVD I will get Dec 1st, that it has to be a rip of a bootleg copy, and I know the quality has got to suck. Or at least not be that great. But I didn't even comment on the quality of bootlegs issue, I simply pointed out that he didn't get the great bonus features that will be on the DVD, not to mention the contents of the second disc. He just stated again that he already watched it and I guess that was enough for him.

My posistion on doing this kind of thing is that I don't really see a point if the DVD will come out soon enough as it is. Why waste time downloading it and burning it when it will be on DVD in a better version in just a couple weeks? I know somebody who got a bootleg copy of Kill Bill and asked me if I wanted one and I was like, "Why? It's coming on DVD in a couple months?" Does he think he did something good by getting the bootleg? He wasted $20.00 in my estimation, a HUGE waste of money for an inferior copy and no bonus features. And what gets me he is the kind of person that will whine when studios release bare bones DVDs at a lower price.

Will I ever understand the mindset of DVD pirates? No, probably not. I don't have a burner, but if I did, I would probably use it like I use my VCR, to record shows on DVD when I am not home and watch them later. Maybe I would record shows to save on DVD, but I would rather own the good quality season sets when they come out later on.

madcougar

11-23-03, 12:39 AM

Originally posted by Tarantino

Who really cares.

I'm going to guess the studios care.

I don't think I would introduce any dupes into my collection I've lovingly built over the last five years. Not really a moral thing with me. I'm not one of these people who HAVE to buy every DVD that comes out every week. I pick and choose, so that it's possible and affordable to buy what I really want.

gcribbs

11-23-03, 12:45 AM

The only one I ever owned was a FOTR screener copy. I figure New Line would forgive me since I bought both the regular Dvd and the extended edition of it plus saw the movie 3 times in the theater.

I will not own a copy as the primary version of a movie. If I like it i will buy the dvd and support the actors and studio. If I do not like it then why bother at all.

The only copy i have ever considered owning as a primary version were the original versions of Star Wars since Lucas said he will never release them so I can buy it :(

As far as why people do it?

cheap or value of their time is small or they think they are sticking it to big companies who are or have screwed them in the past or ???

Class316

11-23-03, 01:12 AM

It's easy.

For the price of one legal DVD you can get 10 DVD+Rs. As for quality, they can be 1:1.

So $20 for one movie, or $20 for 10 movies? Then $40 for 2 movies, or for 20 movies?

Blade

11-23-03, 01:51 AM

It's pure selfishness.

They want it, so they take it, and have no consideration for the consequences of their action (which are felt by others and not themselves, so why should they care?)

ugabuga

11-23-03, 01:52 AM

Its true a buddy of mine asked if he could borrow my 400+ collection over time to burn them. He uses good quality ripping programs and they are virtually identical. He figures he is not going to have anything more than a 27 incher set for a few yrs so even if the copy is slightly lower quality he won't notice on a set that small. Hell we have compared on my 65 incher and even i being picky really cannot tell.

For me i have invested too much and to far in the game to start burning but if I just started perhaps with no HT at all i probably would also.

Shroud

11-23-03, 02:17 AM

I'm curious to the downloading vs. renting idea. Does Blockbuster pay a royality to the respective studio each time a movie is rented from them? I know from the legal point of view, they have permisson to rent, however it would seem like they are hurting the DVD business as much as the downloaders. Whats the difference if someone pays $5 to rent a dvd from blockbuster to view once or downloads to dvd-rw to watch once, both seem to hurt the DVD business as you are not buying their dvd.
I support buying DVDs and have over 460 dvds in my collection, however I have bought some really crappy titles, (non-anamorphic, bad quality picture, sound) that I may have not bought otherwise if I had seen it first. Johnny Mneumonic is a perfect example as the back cover of the DVD says that it is 1.85:1 Widescreen and Full Frame, but when you play the movie its only Full Frame with no option to change to Widescreen.

MasterofDVD

11-23-03, 03:38 AM

403 DVDs (http://www.dvdprofiler.com/mycollection.asp?alias=masterofdvd) and 0 burned.

It's a very costly habit but it's certainly worth rewarding a great company with my hard earned cash. Years ago when New Line starting making great DVDs I kept on buying them as did many others. Now look at the stuff they produce:

http://www.masterofdvd.com/TTTExtended.jpg

It was worth supporting them when they first started making DVDs.

I really wanted a DVD burner with my last computer just because it would of been handy to have but I just knew that if I had one and talked about all my DVDs.....someone would assume that I burned them. That's how strongly I feel about piracy.

I'm proud of my collection and also proud that I work hard enough to be able to afford them.

Dave C

11-23-03, 06:01 AM

It's the same mindset as people who steal cable TV.

They have all kinds of "reasons" but basically they are thieves and would probably steal from a bank (and you) if they were guaranteed that they'd get away with it.

cruzness

11-23-03, 07:42 AM

I own more than 400 DVD's and they are all originals. I support the studios and the actors and the crew when they work on something I enjoy because then they will continue to release movies or shows I enjoy. I've only considered buying bootlegs on a couple of occasions when it was a movie that was not available but I always end up walking away. As for these people's mindset - it comes down to morality.

sracer

11-23-03, 08:04 AM

Let's keep things in perspective here. The only "moral" issue with copying discs is that it is illegal. And as such, the morality of following the law is the same as obeying the legal speed limit.

TheKing

11-23-03, 08:13 AM

There is a difference between physical theft and electronic theft.

Just because someone will download a movie off the internet doesn't mean they would steal from a bank. It's not a matter of "getting away" with it many times, it's more a matter of the idea that when you're downloading, you aren't "taking" anything away.

That file you download, it's still there after it's on your hard drive. You take a CD or a DVD from a store, and that disc is gone. And it's that actual physical presence that changes people's minds about theft.

Piracy isn't really "theft" in many people's eyes, it's copying. It may be defined as theft, in law, but it's not the same as going to a store and ripping it off the shelf.

Beyond that, even the argument that piracy is killing the studios is not one without problems. Just because someone downloads a movie doesn't mean they would buy it. Many people would go without if they couldn't get it for free or at a steep discount.

I know I wouldn't have half the DVD's I have if I didn't get a real good price on them. I like Bedazzled, but I wasn't going to pay $19.99 to add it to my collection. I did without, and bought it when the price went down and I got it for $5. Surely someone must have lost money on the deal, right?

That being said, I don't have any interest in downloading movies. Not because of morals, or fear of being caught or anything like that. I buy them because I want the whole package. I want the movie, I want the artwork on the discs. I want the case, the covert art, and of course the insert.

DVD-ho78(DTS)

11-23-03, 09:30 AM

I would never burn a copy of a DVD that is available to buy. I wouldn't want something that is inferior and that would cheapen my collection. Instead of spending money on blank DVDs I choose to spend money through CH & others to get them for cheap. Then this gives me the opportunity down the line to sell them if a better version comes out or when the next format arrives. Unless you can find some fools to buy a bootleg DVD you will ultimately be operating at a loss. While I choose to continue operating legally and at a gain.

MrMacabre

11-23-03, 09:32 AM

Originally posted by mrhan
I personally don't own any burned DVD. I can't see spending thousands on my HT gear and then using crappy quality sound and picture on it. What's the point?

There's a phenomenal difference between the quality of discs people 'back up' from original sources and the famous "Bali R0's" you're most likely referring to. It all comes down to where the copy originates.

For example, I've seen R1 discs like "Wrong Turn" and "Phone Booth" in which the Widescreen version has been under 4.7gig [putting it in the 'single layer' category] and allowing people with burners to make a 1:1 copy of it.

Secondly, discs that are dual layered can be compressed / re-encoded to be "Movie Only" discs [to try and avoid lowering the bit-rate of the film's transfer] or have the resolution slightly lowered. To this day, I've never seen a copy with a truly significant and distracting difference to the original master, some of which have been compressed up to 30%! Also, I'll point out that when programs are compressed, it is ONLY the 'Video' quality that is lowered, the Audio still remains intact with it's full 2.0, 5.1 or even 6.1 DD or DTS grunt. I have a component Sony 5.1 setup with capabilities for both sound types as well as a widescreen television, so I would like to think that I could make such statements with some authority.
However, as yet I haven't tested any burnt DVDs on any plasma / 'hi-def' televisions [and probably never will - see below], and to be honest - I would expect the difference to probably be more noticeable.

When I got my burner the best part of a year ago, I was somewhat like a "Kid with a new Toy", basically trying it on everything I could. With that said, after a small period of time the novelty truly did begin to wear off, and now I honestly can't remember the last time I burnt something without thinking long and hard.
More so, in regards to the 20 or so DVDs I have burnt over my time - I've since replaced them with their original releases, NOT because of audio / video issues [as I said, they're fine] but due to the fact that at the end of the day, I'm a sucker for proper covers / cases and don't like the tacky look of 'blank white discs with black felt tip'. [Where's the pride in that?!!]
Call it part 'stroking', call it the collector in me, but having long lost interest in burning DVDs, I've gone and replaced everything I once copied with originals [and those 4-5 that I didn't want, I have tossed out with the rest].

In regards to this thread, I couldn't help but reply to this because there seems to be the aroma of hypocrisy (and Bull****) in the air. Reading all these replies that are either ill-informed about DVD burning or just spouting self-righteous garble (the Morality of it, they do it because they can 'get away with it', etc), I ask these very people - Have you ever downloaded a solitary mp3 without paying for it? Honestly? If the answer is no, then you're a league above the rest and are truly your brother's keeper. If not; get off your high horse.

Having said all this, I don't mean to cause offence towards anyone that has posted before me, nor do I want people to think I'm some sort of "aficionado" [far from it, I reckon!] or pompous jerk [not so far from it!]. I just wanted to say the things no one else had said thus far but warranted a mention in light of the thread's context.

astrochimp

11-23-03, 09:41 AM

A guy i work with gave me a burned dvd once in a plastic sleeve with the name of the movie scribbled in marker on the disc and it sat on top on my dvds for awhile then eventually i threw it out cuz it looked ugly :D

Gyno Rhino

11-23-03, 09:45 AM

There's a difference between downloading one mp3 and downloading a movie.

I'll only download an mp3 if it's a song I like, but on a shitty album. If I like the album, I'll buy it. But I can't see spending 15 bucks on a CD that has one decent track.

Movies are different. You're paying that money for ONE movie. If you like it, buy it. If you don't, don't. But stealing it is lame.

vice86

11-23-03, 09:49 AM

I wonder how many people on this board actually rent, rip and burn but are just to afraid to admit it.

Calistoga

11-23-03, 10:03 AM

Maybe I'm getting old, but this seems to be the era of justification for every misdeed. No one wants to be accountable anymore. Burned disks defeat the entire idea of collecting. I think anyone who loves movies and considers him/herself a collector would agree. The packaging, the legitimacy, and the quality of each movie are at issue. Piracy must be condemned....it will only end up hurting us all. (Whoa Trigger)

markdclark43016

11-23-03, 10:10 AM

Everytime you buy a DVD, it's like you're casting a vote. You're telling the studios, "Send more like this one!" Burning discs deprives you of that voice.

It's also a crime against everyone involved in making the film you just stole, since it takes money out of their pockets.

MrMacabre

11-23-03, 10:24 AM

Originally posted by Gyno Rhino
There's a difference between downloading one mp3 and downloading a movie.

There is? You're not paying for either one and are enjoying the fruits of somebody else's labor without paying them for it

Originally posted by Gyno Rhino
I'll only download an mp3 if it's a song I like, but on a shitty album. If I like the album, I'll buy it. But I can't see spending 15 bucks on a CD that has one decent track.

So using that mindset, people can feel free to burn a shitty $15 DVD that has one decent scene / chapter stop?

Originally posted by Gyno Rhino
Movies are different. You're paying that money for ONE movie. If you like it, buy it. If you don't, don't. But stealing it is lame.

If stealing is lame, why condone one form but condemn another?

----------

EDIT: Calistoga, totally agree with your comments. :)

DavidH

11-23-03, 10:27 AM

We consumers are the ones funding DVD releases; obviously, if zero profit was made by studios, there would be no DVDs. DVD pirates are parasites - they are getting their DVDs from the money WE spend to buy legitimate ones. Essentially, we are paying for their DVDs.

Besides the ethics of the matter, I like having the original cases DVDs come in and stacking them on my bookshelf. To me, these are worth several dollars alone - especially, when you have awesome cases such as the extended LOTR - I mean they look so sweet standing up against one another.

Daniel I

11-23-03, 10:34 AM

First to start off, I own over 160 legit DVD's.

For the record you can make an exact copy of a DVD-9 disc. However it is going to be spread across 2 dvd-r's.

I don't support piracy, but my friends do lend me a copy once in awhile.

I just can't live without the cases. I love seeing them lined up on my shelf.

- Daniel I

pro-bassoonist

11-23-03, 10:34 AM

Originally posted by vice86
I wonder how many people on this board actually rent, rip and burn but are just to afraid to admit it.

Dont have a single one, will not burn, and am simply not interested in having non-original dvds in my collection.

Take it as you like!! I wont EVER buy a boot!!

Seeker

11-23-03, 10:39 AM

Originally posted by Class316
It's easy.

For the price of one legal DVD you can get 10 DVD+Rs. As for quality, they can be 1:1.

So $20 for one movie, or $20 for 10 movies? Then $40 for 2 movies, or for 20 movies?

for the price of one chicken, you can steal 10 chickens.

do i ever download chickens? occasionally, sure, but if I like the taste, I then buy it.

milo bloom

11-23-03, 11:02 AM

Originally posted by markdclark43016
1. Everytime you buy a DVD, it's like you're casting a vote. You're telling the studios, "Send more like this one!" Burning discs deprives you of that voice.

2. It's also a crime against everyone involved in making the film you just stole, since it takes money out of their pockets. (numbered for discussion)

1. Right on. That image of the TTT:EE really drives it home. It's releases like those, that make being a collector worth it. I have nearly 300 dvds, and no boots. I just can't see them fitting into my collection. The only exceptions will be when I make DVDs of some of LDs like the Star Wars trilogy. Which leads into...

2. As said above, it's not really theft. It's copyright infringement. There's a (fine, but real, distinction). That movie has not been taken away from the studio. Revenue has , but only if that person would have bought that movie or movie ticket anyways. But in the case of the Star Wars trilogy, we're probably never going to see the originals on DVD ever. I already have VHS and LD copies, my transferring them to DVD is not going to hurt George Lucas one iota.
Honestly, people like the ones mentioned above that have hundreds of burnt ones, if the technology didn't exist, do you really think they would have bought all those hundreds of legit DVDs? Maybe one or two; or they would just be making VHS dupes.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think it's right. But I want the reasons why to be understood.

atimoc

11-23-03, 11:34 AM

DVDs are dirt cheap, and if you don't buy every disc-o'-crap you come across, you get very good value for your money.

Oh and which one would you choose?

http://mbnet.fi/atimoc/misc/notsocool.jpg

Cogliostro

11-23-03, 12:03 PM

"I've collected 400 dvd's in my collection" "I've collected 200 dvd's in my collection". There are lots and lots of dvd's I buy to collect because I like the movie. There are also lots and lots of dvd's I would never buy to collect- but I would rent. I'd collect TTT:EE, I'd rent Charlies Angels 2. Those dvd's that people put in the "rent " catagory are the ones that people copy. Ones you wouldn't waste $20 on, but ones you would spend $5 on. So for most copiers, if they didn't copy the movie, they would never have bought it in the first place. No revenue was lost.

For alot of movies, you can copy just the movie, chop out the french 5.1 track, chop off the FBI warning, chop off the trailers, etc, and then add on a THX or Dolby Digital trailer at the beginning, and end up with an exact copy of the movie minus the stuff you don't want.

So as far as the actual quality of these DVD rips, it's as good, or better- depending on how much you value those french/spanish 5.1 tracks, previews, etc.

Some movies won't fit on one disc, and have to be split over two discs- but not many.

Now, scan a copy of the cover, or download one, or better yet- make a custom cover that is better than the original.

Add all that to a plastic dvd case you bought at Fry's, and you end up with, in many cases, an excellent product that "satisfies" the collecting instinct, because it looks nice on the shelf. The only thing missing is the actual disc cover art.

There is a thriving community that loves to make superior cover art.

So as far as the post above showing the sharpie on disc picture- you are pretty far off the mark, for some people.

D.Pham00

11-23-03, 12:13 PM

well, it's the mentality of getting whatever you can for free (or almost free). that's why divx was so popular (and still is to a degree). with dvd burners getting so cheap, people are moving in that direction. i used to collect pirated stuff before, but ultimately, i've moved away from it, and for me, there are a few reasons:

1) morality - i ultimately don't feel that it's the right thing to do.
2) time expended
3) quality - not as much of a concern now with DVD burners.
4) support of something i enjoy - if everyone pirates dvds, then the studio would have no incentive to make dvd releases.
5) legallity

anyway, that's just my reasons. now, for why people pirate:

1) they don't think it's immoral to steal from a group as a whole - the same thing goes for people who cheat wellfare or what not
2) they don't mind spending the extra time
3) not as concerned about quality
4) they feel that there are plenty others out there who buy the dvds. (guess this is similar to #1)
5) they feel that they'll do it as long as they can get away with it.

chemosh6969

11-23-03, 01:02 PM

Cogliostro has my vote.

I know people that do great covers for movies that they own.

As for posting a horrible looking dvd copy next to the original and showing that as proof, bah, if I owned a copy, I could take a double sided dvd (fullscreen one side widescreen other), get a copy of some amazing cover art and compare it to the original.

What do you end up with? A copy with superior cover art and you are now minus the never watched fullscreen side. Strip out all the extra audio tracks, or other stuff you don't care about and you can have the same quality movie with space left over on the disc.

This whole thread sounds like a religous/political thread where people on one side, the "copies are all bad quality, you are a sinner" side.

Then you have another side, the "I buy movies that I really love/ it has a lot of bonus stuff on the disc that I like, but not all copies are bad quality" side.

Followed by the silent "I record everything I can get my hands on. Buying movies are for fools" side.

Out of the three sides, the 1st and 3rd side are the most closed minded while the 2nd is the one that buys movies while admitting that some copies are really good but on the other hand some are pure crap.

atimoc

11-23-03, 01:11 PM

Speaking of closed-mindedness, that pic was never meant to be taken seriously...

spongebobkay

11-23-03, 01:23 PM

I totally disagree with Cogliostro. Most people who rip dvd's are only interested in having & watching the movie for free. They don't care about covers, art, or extras. If they put all the extra time, effort & money into cover art (buying or creating), getting plastic covers, & adding chapters or features, It's for PROFIT! Not because it looks nice on their shelf! Check out eBay if you disagree! DVD collecting is not just about the movie, but the WHOLE package. It IS the special features, interviews, cover art, disc art, inserts, easter eggs, & the MOVIE! Anyone who spends a little time reading the posts on the various forums at this web site will agree. Vulcans' pirate dvd's because they are emotionless. Collector's have PASSION!!!!!

duz

11-23-03, 01:27 PM

I'm surprised no one has brought up legal copying of dvds. You are allowed to medium shift or make backups of movies you own aslong as you retain the originals. I do that. Not to all my movies, just to the fancy boxsets that are tricky to open like Futurama or X-Files. That way I can keep the discs in their boxes without fear of damaging the box and still watch the shows which I keep in a binder. I have also done this for a few of my movies that people like to borrow from me like Spaceballs so that I don't have to worry about them damaging the original. I do get the DVD-R back and I don't watch my copy while they have it.
If we don't excersize our right to medium shift and create backups then when it gets taken away, how will we know we lost it?

chemosh6969

11-23-03, 01:36 PM

Originally posted by atimoc
Speaking of closed-mindedness, that pic was never meant to be taken seriously...

doh

Class316

11-23-03, 02:00 PM

Piracy will always be there. Always has been.

Seeker

11-23-03, 02:18 PM

Originally posted by Class316
Piracy will always be there. Always has been.

And, of course, this means it's ok...

Class316

11-23-03, 02:33 PM

Originally posted by Seeker
And, of course, this means it's ok...

Personally, I'd hate to see it go.

fakemadrid

11-23-03, 03:18 PM

I've copied a few DVD's before, but they were all DVD's that I bought on the day they came out in stores. They were the movies I simply could not wait for, like LOTR 1 and 2. So I don't feel like I have hurt the company any, I saw the movies in theatres, and there was never a question of simply leaving the copied disc as my copy, I was going to buy the movie from the start. Who (just out of curiosity) objects to this?

D.Pham00

11-23-03, 03:38 PM

Originally posted by puddytay

1000 orignal dvds = around 20,000 dollars
1,000 copies= around 1,000 dollars.
If you dont a good income which do you choose?
If dvds were 4.99 piracy wouldnt exist. But greedy companies want to charge 19.99-up to 39.99 like criterion.

and by the same token, you can buy stuff on the black market a lot cheaper than buying the same items in the store.

I dont see how they can find this illegal if they legalize dvd burners. It makes no sense.

dvd burners are legal just like cd burners and vcrs. you can use them for legal activities, or illegal ones, but the burners themselves are legal.

as for copying stuff for backup, i believe that that would be considered fair use, as long as it's for backup only. now, if you rent a movie and back it up for later use, then that would be illegal, IMO. same goes for buying movies. you can buy them and backup if you like, as long as you keep both the original and the backup. if you sell the backup (or original), and keep the original (or backup), then that would be illegal, IMO. basically, backing up is ok as long as you keep the original and the backup.

gutwrencher

11-23-03, 03:48 PM

Originally posted by MasterofDVD

I'm proud of my collection and also proud that I work hard enough to be able to afford them.

ditto. almost 1,400 titles on dvd and not one burned. what I do want...is a back-up to all of my fav's. just in case manufaturing screw-ups prevent a current disc from lasting as long as they are supposed to. when that title is oop and goes belly-up...at least I'd have another copy of the film itself, even if it's not perfect.

11-23-03, 03:53 PM

Originally posted by duz
I'm surprised no one has brought up legal copying of dvds. You are allowed to medium shift or make backups of movies you own aslong as you retain the originals. You are incorrect about that. Copying the DVD by cracking the encryption of it is what is specifically illegal according to DMCA. That goes beyond any "fair use" argument.

It might not seem reasonable, or moral or practical, but that's the way it is right now.

gutwrencher

11-23-03, 03:58 PM

Originally posted by puddytay
People like me dont watch movies twice.

http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/scared.gif

Class316

11-23-03, 04:20 PM

Originally posted by D.Pham00
dvd burners are legal just like cd burners and vcrs. you can use them for legal activities, or illegal ones, but the burners themselves are legal.

Exactly!! Just like photo copy machines! You can use it to copy a book, but the machine is legal.

Class316

11-23-03, 04:47 PM

Originally posted by puddytay
thats not the same thing. It would cost you more to copy a whole book than it would be to buy it. Copies of movies cost you way way way less than the real dvd.

You can also make it to PDF.

Regardless, that’s not the point. A copier can be used to copy a book, which is illegal. Yet the machine is legal.

Same concept with VCRs, CD/DVD burners, and kazaa.

aaryn

11-23-03, 05:30 PM

There are two world of people. Those who buy DVDs and do not know the word "pirating". They dont understand the logic behind ripping a disc. Then there's those who rip DVDs and do not know the word "buying". They don't understand the logic behind buying a disc.

I tend to be in the middle, and let me explain the point of view of a pirater.

First of all, ripping a DVD does not mean "bootleg quality". People rip Retail DVDs, not bootlegs sold for 1$. What's the point?

Here's an example why I would rip a DVD:

I saw Black Hawk Down in theatres, liked it a bit. It's out on DVD. I rent it to watch it again, then decides to make a backup of the movie. First of all, the original DVD already contains no extras, so I have not lost anything extras-wise. Secondly, with the equipment I have (38" tube TV), I see almost no difference between the real and the copy. Third, it's not really a movie I'm in love with, so there's not really a justified reason I would put out 15$ to buy it, and probably, would only watch it once a year. Maybe less. Fourth, I'm a student, I've already paid 13$ to watch it in theatres, 5$ to rent it at BB. I have to pay shcool fees, clothes, books, ps2 games, music CDs, going out with friends, going to theatres.. etc. Why is it so bad to own a ripped copy of Black Hawk Down?

Here's an example why I would buy a DVD

I've seen Lion King twice in theatre. 14 times on VHS. Now I want the DVD to have all the extras and behind the scenes because this movie is my gem. I'll forge out 20$ for it, no problem. I can only choose 1 DVD and instead of buying BHD, I'd buy LK instead. I'm happy to own the 2 disc set with case and cover arts. What's wrong with buying a movie I adore?

Some of you talk like, you're millionaires.. we're not all millionaires.. we are not all doctors or engineers.. many of us are students.. and 400 DVDs is crazy. I own 30 Retail DVDs and they cost me around 2000$ already. That's 1 year of shcool fees. Many DVDs that I own I've only watched once, others had been re-released into better editions.. That's some wasted money there.

If you have the equipment and money, go ahead and buy the Retail DVDs. If you are on a restricted budget but loves movies, try to find a cheap way out.

Btw, ripping a DVD can take 3 hours.. not big deal since you only have to be there for 15 minutes..

Pariah

11-23-03, 05:33 PM

Great thread to make a first post in...but...

My collection. (http://www.dvdaficionado.com/dvds.html?cat=1&sub=All&id=pariah)

All of those are original, no bootleg. I do own one bootleg dvd, the Frighteners: Director's Cut transfered from the laser disc. It's sitting on my shelf right next to the legit R rated cut. I bought it because I love the movie and don't think the director's cut will be coming to dvd, if it does I'll buy the dvd.

I download a lot of movies. Around three per week. I see nothing wrong with it. I get most of them because they are there and I can get them quickly. I get movies I wouldn't even have rented. A good many times I end up buying a movie I wouldn't have rented because I downloaded it. Looking in my collection, Terminator 3, Interstate 60, Killing Zoe, Out Cold, Sexy Beast, Scotland, PA and Below are just a few movies I never would have bought had I not illegally downloaded them.

Yes, I consider what I do illegal. No, I don't care. The closest rental place to me that doesn't carry mainstream releases is 35 minutes away. The internet has become my rental place.

I saw a special on 60 Minutes talking about pirating movies. There was a comment about the Finding Nemo dvd-rip along the lines of, it's avaliable two months before the dvd is out in dvd quality so why would anyone buy it? Well, I downloaded Finding Nemo, and on the tuesday it came out, I bought it...along with 8 million other people. Most of my friends downloaded it, and bought it the tuesday it came out, so did we really do something wrong? Legally, yes...but morally? I really don't think so.

Every week I download 24 (and some other tv shows) and keep them on my hard drive or burn them to watch them later. Then the day the dvd is released I delete them from my hard drive and move the discs I burned into the coaster pile. These are cds that I burn, not dvds...so they make cheap coasters.

I really don't see what I do as being the least bit wrong. I feel that I am helping the industry. I made a lot of purchases because of my illegal activities. On the other hand, I would never buy a bootleg, nor woudld I sell one. I do give copies of movies I think my friends would like to them (in vcd format) and many times I've caused them to make a purchase. We all feel buying a movie is telling the studios we want more movies like them. I also feel that downloading helps, there has been movies that look really good from the trailer, then upon viewing were awful. Had I bought the dvd the studio would think I want movies like it, and I don't.

There has been a few dvds from other regions I would have thought of getting bootlegs of, except none of my friends had region-free equitment, and I woudln't buy a bootleg. This is what I'm wondering, how many of you who think downloading is so wrong have a region-free player? Isn't that illegal? No, it's more of a grey area, so it's ok...right?

Some will read this and in their overabundence of morality will say I'm just justifying my illegal activities, but what I don't understand is how you can judge me? What makes you the moral authurity?

D.Pham00

11-23-03, 05:45 PM

Originally posted by puddytay
thats not the same thing. It would cost you more to copy a whole book than it would be to buy it. Copies of movies cost you way way way less than the real dvd.

depends on what you're copying. i have engineering books that you'd save money by copying them. even some of the thicker books, say 1000 pages, cost say $125 or so. copies are usually $.05 a page, so that's $50 to copy. now, many times you only use a portion of the book, so the cost would be less.

now, if you had the permission of the copyright holder, then you can by all means make as many copies as the copyright holder allows.

Static Cling

11-23-03, 05:45 PM

Originally posted by aaryn
Some of you talk like, you're millionaires.. we're not all millionaires.. we are not all doctors or engineers.. many of us are students.. and 400 DVDs is crazy. I own 30 Retail DVDs and they cost me around 2000$ already. That's 1 year of shcool fees. $2000 divided by 30 DVDs = ~$67 a DVD. Even $1500 divided by 30 DVDs is $50 a pop. What sort of DVDs are you buying?

Being a poor student (or a poor anything, for that matter) isn't a justification to break the law. Rationalizing what you're doing may make you feel better, but there is no "starving student/artist/single parent" clause to copyright laws. I was a student once, and I went the cheap way out as well... except my way was to buy used VHS tapes and PC games on Ebay and Half.com, not make illegal copies of anything. Now that I've graduated and I make a salary, I can afford my DVD & video game collection. In my opinion, the "I-can't-afford-buying-it-legally-so-it's-okay-to-bootleg" argument comes from a misplaced sense of entitlement.

atimoc

11-23-03, 05:48 PM

Originally posted by aaryn
There are two world of people. Those who buy DVDs and do not know the word "pirating". They dont understand the logic behind ripping a disc. Then there's those who rip DVDs and do not know the word "buying". They don't understand the logic behind buying a disc.

I tend to be in the middle, and let me explain the point of view of a pirater.

First of all, ripping a DVD does not mean "bootleg quality". People rip Retail DVDs, not bootlegs sold for 1$. What's the point?

Here's an example why I would rip a DVD:

I saw Black Hawk Down in theatres, liked it a bit. It's out on DVD. I rent it to watch it again, then decides to make a backup of the movie. First of all, the original DVD already contains no extras, so I have not lost anything extras-wise. Secondly, with the equipment I have (38" tube TV), I see almost no difference between the real and the copy. Third, it's not really a movie I'm in love with, so there's not really a justified reason I would put out 15$ to buy it, and probably, would only watch it once a year. Maybe less. Fourth, I'm a student, I've already paid 13$ to watch it in theatres, 5$ to rent it at BB. I have to pay shcool fees, clothes, books, ps2 games, music CDs, going out with friends, going to theatres.. etc. Why is it so bad to own a ripped copy of Black Hawk Down?

Well perhaps you should plan your budget a bit better and not buy all those CDs and playstation games.

Here's an example why I would buy a DVD

I've seen Lion King twice in theatre. 14 times on VHS. Now I want the DVD to have all the extras and behind the scenes because this movie is my gem. I'll forge out 20$ for it, no problem. I can only choose 1 DVD and instead of buying BHD, I'd buy LK instead. I'm happy to own the 2 disc set with case and cover arts. What's wrong with buying a movie I adore?

Some of you talk like, you're millionaires.. we're not all millionaires.. we are not all doctors or engineers.. many of us are students.. and 400 DVDs is crazy. I own 30 Retail DVDs and they cost me around 2000$ already.

$2000 for 30 DVDs? Good God. Do you have 30 Brazil Criterions or something?

That's 1 year of shcool fees. Many DVDs that I own I've only watched once, others had been re-released into better editions.. That's some wasted money there.

You can eBay them. And nobody forces you to replace the regular version of the movie with the Collector's Special 50-disc edition.

If you have the equipment and money, go ahead and buy the Retail DVDs. If you are on a restricted budget but loves movies, try to find a cheap way out.

Btw, ripping a DVD can take 3 hours.. not big deal since you only have to be there for 15 minutes..

Sorry for possibly offending remarks. It's easy to think of all kinds of excuses for piracy. It would be better to have the spine to admit that what you are doing is illegal and leave it at that.

edit: ack, Static Cling typed the same things faster

D.Pham00

11-23-03, 05:51 PM

Originally posted by Static Cling
$2000 divided by 30 DVDs = ~$67 a DVD. Even $1500 divided by 30 DVDs is $50 a pop. What sort of DVDs are you buying?

Being a poor student (or a poor anything, for that matter) isn't a justification to break the law. Rationalizing what you're doing may make you feel better, but there is no "starving student/artist/single parent" clause to copyright laws. I was a student once, and I went the cheap way out as well... except my way was to buy used VHS tapes and PC games on Ebay and Half.com, not make illegal copies of anything. Now that I've graduated and I make a salary, I can afford my DVD & video game collection. In my opinion, the "I-can't-afford-buying-it-legally-so-it's-okay-to-bootleg" argument comes from a misplaced sense of entitlement.

additionally, the RIAA or MPAA isn't gonna say, "oh, this is a poor college student...we'll just let him go". i used to buy dvds from half/ebay, but sometimes, they won't tell you that it's the asian or r0 or bootleg version. after that, i stopped buying from there. that, and CH is cheaper anyway.

gutwrencher

11-23-03, 06:01 PM

Originally posted by aaryn

Some of you talk like, you're millionaires.. we're not all millionaires.. we are not all doctors or engineers.. many of us are students..

actually....some of us are simply adults with steady jobs, strong work ethic and a know how of how to budget...something kids wouldnt understand. man...it must suck to be a young person today.

chemosh6969

11-23-03, 06:02 PM

Originally posted by X
You are incorrect about that. Copying the DVD by cracking the encryption of it is what is specifically illegal according to DMCA. That goes beyond any "fair use" argument.

It might not seem reasonable, or moral or practical, but that's the way it is right now.

Not all movies have copy protection. I have run across quite a few, therefor it's legal to back those up.

Static Cling

11-23-03, 06:10 PM

Originally posted by aaryn
Secondly, with the equipment I have (38" tube TV), I see almost no difference between the real and the copy. Oh, yeah, I almost forgot:

IF YOU HAVE A 38" TUBE TV, YOU ARE NOT POOR.

I didn't even have a freakin' TV when I was in college.

ArchibaldTuttle

11-23-03, 06:14 PM

I fall in the same boat as aaryn, yes its stealing I'll admit it, but I love movies too much, once I get out of college and can afford to buy so many movies that I have a stack of 50 I still haven't watched, I will, till then I will buy all the must have dvds and copy the rest, so sue me, attack me with your moral high and mighty righteousness

D.Pham00

11-23-03, 06:16 PM

Originally posted by X
You are incorrect about that. Copying the DVD by cracking the encryption of it is what is specifically illegal according to DMCA. That goes beyond any "fair use" argument.

It might not seem reasonable, or moral or practical, but that's the way it is right now.

does that mean that you can copy a DVD by methods other than cracking the DVD encryption?

Gyno Rhino

11-23-03, 06:23 PM

Originally posted by Static Cling
Oh, yeah, I almost forgot:

IF YOU HAVE A 38" TUBE TV, YOU ARE NOT POOR.

I didn't even have a freakin' TV when I was in college.

Exactly. I'm workin' with a 13".

aaryn

11-23-03, 06:35 PM

30 DVDs and 2000$ are "rounded" numbers.. I dont wanna go and count all the DVDs i own, and that I lent to my friends. I don't wanna go and get all my bills and add them all together. I just gave an (pretty far) approximation :). And yah, everytime I buy a DVD, it's because I feel they are worth. I have paid;

45$ for The Book of the Dead
50$ Evil Dead Elite
50$ for Evil Dead 2 Tin Box
50$ for Army of Darkness Director's Cut
45$ Terminator Ultimate Tin
45$ Mickey Mouse In Full Color
40$ Silly Symphony
40$ Akira Tin Edition
40$ FOTR: EE
40$ TTT: EE

and i got some more like that. Btw, I was talking in Canadian dollars, maybe that's why the price seems high :)

In my opinion, the "I-can't-afford-buying-it-legally-so-it's-okay-to-bootleg" argument comes from a misplaced sense of entitlement.

Well, I dont have money to buy CDs, I listen to the radio. Or borrow CDs from my friend. Or make a copy of his CD. There is no law that forces us to buy everything legally, even if we don't have spare money for. I don't buy all movies I like, just those that I love. I have a limited budget. Nothing forces me to put all my budget into DVDs. DVDs is maybe not my "priority passion". I'd like to save money for other things too.

Well perhaps you should plan your budget a bit better and not buy all those CDs and playstation games.

What the?? That's like saying, don't buy anything, but DVDs.

Sorry for possibly offending remarks. It's easy to think of all kinds of excuses for piracy. It would be better to have the spine to admit that what you are doing is illegal and leave it at that.

Gosh, I just admitted in my whole post that I'm ripping DVDs. What do you want more? And the original thread creator asked to be explained why people rip DVDs, I just gave an example/explanation and you come and tell us to "admit and leave it at it". Huh???

additionally, the RIAA or MPAA isn't gonna say, "oh, this is a poor college student...we'll just let him go". i used to buy dvds from half/ebay, but sometimes, they won't tell you that it's the asian or r0 or bootleg version. after that, i stopped buying from there. that, and CH is cheaper anyway.

Yup, I have an CH account and buying/selling on Ebay also. I agree with the R0 thing, I once got a R0 The Others. :( And yah, the RIAA don't give a shit about poor students, and students don't give a shit about RIAA losing millions.

Btw, so what if I have a 38" TV at home? What's the connection between that and my budget? It could be a gift, it could be a 2nd hand. It could be a cheap ass Zenith brand. And I stil have DD2.0. What, anyone who have a 38" TV are millionaires now? Maybe the reason you stil have a 13" TV is because you're buying every DVD possible, while I collect the money to invest into a big TV and save from buying useless DVDs.

Anyways, I was trying to let the original thread creator see the difference between buying and ripping, now it seems like most people dont wanna see or accept the difference.

I buy DVDs and I rip DVDs. But I'm labelled as a pirate. Can you people just accept there's two kind of people, and stop labeling people who rip DVDs ennemies? We all love DVDs.

Mickey

11-23-03, 06:45 PM

People copied/backedup DVDs before DECSS was around so there must be.

D.Pham00

11-23-03, 06:48 PM

Originally posted by aaryn

I buy DVDs and I rip DVDs. But I'm labelled as a pirate. Can you people just accept there's two kind of people, and stop labeling people who rip DVDs ennemies? We all love DVDs.

pirate:
1 : to commit piracy on
2 : to take or appropriate by piracy : as a : to reproduce without authorization especially in infringement of copyright b : to lure away from another employer by offers of betterment

aaryn

11-23-03, 06:49 PM

I think the new HD-DVD will have better protection/security then actual DVDs.

Pham, I meant, why can't i be labeled as both a pirate and a legal customer? :)

atimoc

11-23-03, 06:54 PM

Originally posted by aaryn
The way some of you reacts to my post does not show you're any more adult than I am. Those are some quick cheesy replies, that didn't need much thinking.

I think they were short and to the point.

What the?? That's like saying, don't buy anything, but DVDs.

If you like PS2 games, buy them. If you like DVDs, buy them. Prioritize, buy what means the most to you. Why does a student have to get everything right away?

Gosh, I just admitted in my whole post that I'm ripping DVDs. What do you want more? And the original thread creator asked to be explained why people rip DVDs, I just gave an example/explanation and you come and tell us to "admit and leave it at it". Huh???

That was more of a general remark. There are plenty of people who say "I would buy (insert product here) if (insert excuse here), but until then I pirate them". I suppose the excuses are welcome in this thread, but constantly listening to them in real life gets old rather quick.

I buy DVDs and I rip DVDs. But I'm labelled as a pirate. Can you people just accept there's two kind of people, and stop labeling people who rip DVDs ennemies? We all love DVDs.

Well you are a pirate, but I don't certainly consider you my enemy :) Just brought up my opinion.

D.Pham00

11-23-03, 06:55 PM

Originally posted by aaryn
I think the new HD-DVD will have better protection/security then actual DVDs.

no matter what, the code will be cracked. hopefully, it'll take a little more than the "shift" key to crack a certain CD "encryption" code

aaryn

11-23-03, 07:01 PM

That was more of a general remark. There are plenty of people who say "I would buy (insert product here) if (insert excuse here), but until then I pirate them". I suppose the excuses are welcome in this thread, but constantly listening to them in real life gets old rather quick.

It's pretty tiring to hear "that's not an excuse" also. We know it's not right, but you can't do anything about it. It's part of the "naive youth". Adults don't pirate as much as young adults.

Pham, even tho it's crakable, unless they sell 30gb DVDR, otherwise, it won't be easy to backup with good quality. But i think 30gb DVDR it's already in their plans..

Static Cling

11-23-03, 07:05 PM

Originally posted by aaryn
The way some of you reacts to my post does not show you're any more adult than I am. Those are some quick cheesy replies, that didn't need much thinking. Hey, none of us ever claimed to be more adult than you. :) And to be blunt, not much thinking is required in this situation. (I was actually wondering if you were talking Canadian dollars, with the high prices you were bringing up.)
Why is that so? The way I see entitlement relating to your situation is this: you don't have enough money to legally purchase all the movies you want to have on disc, but you feel that you should be able to have them all on disc, so you bootleg them. Your sense that you are somehow entitled to own all of the movies you like on disc even if you don't have the money to legally purchase them seems to drive your bootlegging.
I dont have money to buy CDs, I listen to the radio. Okay, that's legal.
Or borrow CDs from my friend. And that's legal, too.
Or make a copy of his CD. And that's not legal.
So what. Is there a law that forces us to buy everything legally, even if we don't have spare money? Are we talking about laws that require us to pay money for things that we want to own, even if we don't have the money to pay for those things? Then the answer is YES!
Good for you if you buy every movie you like, I don't buy all movies I like, just those I love. I have a limited budget. I'm not aware of any "like/love" clauses in copyright laws... they may be different in Canada, however.

Not all of us have unlimited budgets, either. (Okay, maybe pdjennings, but other than him.) So what a lot of us do is not buy the stuff that we can't afford. There's a lot of stuff out there that I like but I can't afford, but I don't feel that, just because I like it, I'm entitled to have it.

Philip Reuben

11-23-03, 07:13 PM

Originally posted by Static Cling
Being a poor student (or a poor anything, for that matter) isn't a justification to break the law. Rationalizing what you're doing may make you feel better, but there is no "starving student/artist/single parent" clause to copyright laws. I was a student once, and I went the cheap way out as well... except my way was to buy used VHS tapes and PC games on Ebay and Half.com, not make illegal copies of anything. Now that I've graduated and I make a salary, I can afford my DVD & video game collection. In my opinion, the "I-can't-afford-buying-it-legally-so-it's-okay-to-bootleg" argument comes from a misplaced sense of entitlement.

I think you're confusing two issues here - the issue of what's legally right (which is objective) and the issue of what's morally right (which is subjective).

Clearly Aaryn is aware that what he's doing is illegal. It seems ridiculous to ramble on at him that he shouldn't do it because it's illegal when it's established that that doesn't matter to him because in his mind it's morally justified. I don't really blame him... most of his arguments seem pretty logical to me. It's not an issue of entitlement so much as an issue of, why shouldn't he have it? In the grand scheme of things, is he really hurting anyone?

Personally I don't buy bootleg DVDs, rip DVDs or download movies - the difference in quality is noticeable to me (but not my parents, who thought the shitty T3 bootleg* they borrowed looked excellent), I like to have the extras, and I have too much of a collector mentality to not have the actual packaging on my shelf.

I do download anime fansubs sometimes, but it's not very often, it's only of series that aren't licensed for R1 release, and if it's something I really like I'd be likely get the uber-expensive R2 release (I plan on getting the live action Sailor Moon series on DVD if and when it's released in Japan, even though I full expect it to cost up to $60 a disc! Toei's live action series aren't cheap on DVD p_q)

* This DVD wasn't just T3 - it was ALL THREE movies on ONE disc. I kid you not. I didn't check if it was single layer or dual layer, but even if it was dual layer that's a stupid amount to cram on one disc. The video was from very muddy-looking sources and was compressed to all hell. Also, the video was widescreen but cropped to 16:9, and it was anamorphic but with the flag set to 4:3 (so to fill our widescreen TV it had to be put in stretch mode). As I said, my parents thought it looked great.

atimoc

11-23-03, 07:15 PM

Personally I don't buy, rip or download movies

:hscratch:

Philip Reuben

11-23-03, 07:17 PM

Originally posted by atimoc
:hscratch:

^^;;; Typo. I'll correct it.

covenant

11-23-03, 07:18 PM

<i>Let's not discuss piracy techniques, thanks</i>

BILLinGA

11-23-03, 08:01 PM

My collection has 200+ DVDs, all original copies. No boots. Now I started late in the DVD game, and I would love to have another 300 or so movies that I could name off the top of my head, but I would never steal (rip) them.

That is like saying I am sick and tired of walking to work so let me steal someone's car. After all I am enititled to drive a car but I just cannot afford one right now (probably because you bought too many DVDs, but that is another conversation). They have insurance so I am sure they will get money for another car. Plus those damn insurance companies charge such high premiums I don't mind stealing from them. That is stupid and it is wrong.

If you don't care that something is illegal or wrong and you do it anyway then the comments here should be the least of your problems.

Philip Reuben

11-23-03, 08:25 PM

Originally posted by BILLinGA
If you don't care that something is illegal or wrong and you do it anyway then the comments here should be the least of your problems.

IMHO whether something is illegal or not should only be a consideration if you're likely to be caught. It's morality that should be your guide, and that's something everyone has to decide for themselves. That looks really silly written down... but to me it makes perfect sense. Look at it this way: Do you dislike murderers because they broke a law that forbids killing people, or because killing people is wrong?

In my view you shouldn't steal a car because it's morally wrong - you're depriving someone of a physical possession of theirs, and quite an expensive one that (they'll get compensation, but that's not the same as getting the car back). It's easy to make the argument that it's a whole different ballgame with copies of existing content, content which is also available on a medium that the person copying wouldn't have bought in the first place. It's illegal, but arguably no one loses out. Whether it's illegal or not is irrelevant (if you like I could go down the "What, you've never willingly broken a law?" route...)

This is the 2am ramblings of someone very divided on this issue ^^;

aaryn

11-23-03, 08:37 PM

I do not steal a DVD in store and make a copy. I rent it, then make a copy if I think i'll watch the movie again sometimes down the road. Maybe for you it's great to either buy the movie, or don't have it at all. Morally a good person. Well, for me, I have the tools to rip, so I rip movies I kinda like for a small amount of money. Moreally wrong, but at least, I can pop the movie in whenver i feel like watching it. Yes, I am aware of quality loss, and extras lost, but for movies like How to lose a guy in 10 days, I don't really care about the extras, nor 5-10% in quality loss. For something like LOTR, yes I care and I own both EE.

However, i'm totally against bootlegs DVD. My mom bought a bunch and I threw them away, and told her to never waste her money on those again.

Just a question, how many movies did you watch during the whole summer.. from May to August.

chemosh6969

11-23-03, 08:43 PM

Originally posted by BILLinGA
My collection has 200+ DVDs, all original copies. No boots. Now I started late in the DVD game, and I would love to have another 300 or so movies that I could name off the top of my head, but I would never steal (rip) them.

That is like saying I am sick and tired of walking to work so let me steal someone's car. After all I am enititled to drive a car but I just cannot afford one right now (probably because you bought too many DVDs, but that is another conversation). They have insurance so I am sure they will get money for another car. Plus those damn insurance companies charge such high premiums I don't mind stealing from them. That is stupid and it is wrong.

If you don't care that something is illegal or wrong and you do it anyway then the comments here should be the least of your problems.

What you described would be related more to someone breaking into a video store and stealing a bunch of movies. Eventually the insurance would cover the cost of replacing the stolen movies and everything is fine in the end.

The only way what you said that would be exactly like someone copying movies is if instead of stealing your car, they had a magical machine that could make an almost perfect copy of your car. The original is never gone and the other person has a car like yours but with a few extra scratches or more worn seats.

jessecrx

11-23-03, 09:08 PM

Ok, I have a question.

I have several VHS tapes like:

The Sea Prince and The Fire Child

Hey Good Lookin'

The State(MTV)

I have been wanting to put these on DVD for the simple fact that each time I play them the VHS quality gets worse and worse. They are that old.

If I wanted to, could I legally put them on DVD atleast until their legit versions are released on DVD?

Ginwen

11-23-03, 09:10 PM

Originally posted by sracer
Let's keep things in perspective here. The only "moral" issue with copying discs is that it is illegal. And as such, the morality of following the law is the same as obeying the legal speed limit.
If someone comes into your house is that only immoral because it's against the law? I don't think so. Burning disks is stealing, just like going into someone's house and helping yourself to their stuff, and is immoral regardless of the law.

duz

11-23-03, 09:27 PM

Originally posted by jessecrx
Ok, I have a question.

I have several VHS tapes like:

The Sea Prince and The Fire Child

Hey Good Lookin'

The State(MTV)

I have been wanting to put these on DVD for the simple fact that each time I play them the VHS quality gets worse and worse. They are that old.

If I wanted to, could I legally put them on DVD atleast until their legit versions are released on DVD?

Yes. This is what I mentioned earlier. Medium shifting is allowed as an exemption to copyright laws.
However it would not be legal for you to go buy a bootleg version on dvd since it was not made from your original. That distinction was show in the lawsuit against mp3.com. You are allowed to have backups or do a medium shift aslong as it is done from your own original and not from someone else's even if bitwise they are the same.
And to respond to X's comment on my comment there are many ways to backup or medium shift a dvd without breaking the css encryption and thus running afowl of the DMCA. I would go into my thoughts on the DMCA but I just don't have enough energy tonight.

aaryn

11-23-03, 09:46 PM

Originally posted by Ginwen
If someone comes into your house is that only immoral because it's against the law? I don't think so. Burning disks is stealing, just like going into someone's house and helping yourself to their stuff, and is immoral regardless of the law.

Burning disc is stealing? Stealing what? Danm, if downloading MP3s is stealing like the way you're talking, 80% of the people on this planet is a thief.

To correct your example, it's more like this: someone goes into your house and steals your decoration ideas, go home and replicate his house like yours.

Pirating is stealing copyrights. Not the object.

BILLinGA

11-23-03, 09:52 PM

See that is exactly the problem. Just because 80% of the population does it, which they don't, and it is easy does not mean it is right. I don't care if you are downloading and burning songs that you do not own, or if you are renting a DVD and then burning yourself a copy, both are wrong.

jasonnaper

11-23-03, 09:59 PM

Put very nicely!
I'm nearing 700 right now, all original store bought.
My "joy" in this hobby is the joy of collecting something of worth, something I can jump into and escape reality for a bit... Its my collection. If I collected fine art why would I embarase myself by haning fakes on my walls?

Bootlegs are cheap copies... People who are into this sort of thing just isn't in my group of DVD folks who enjoy collecting the "fine art". I also salute the studios, and hope for years of more DVD entertainment in hopes that the bootlegers don't force all other kinds of restrictions, and/or price increase, or anything that the studios will have to do in order to protect there work...

I for one boycot the trash...

Originally posted by MasterofDVD
403 DVDs (http://www.dvdprofiler.com/mycollection.asp?alias=masterofdvd) and 0 burned.

It's a very costly habit but it's certainly worth rewarding a great company with my hard earned cash. Years ago when New Line starting making great DVDs I kept on buying them as did many others. Now look at the stuff they produce:

http://www.masterofdvd.com/TTTExtended.jpg

It was worth supporting them when they first started making DVDs.

I really wanted a DVD burner with my last computer just because it would of been handy to have but I just knew that if I had one and talked about all my DVDs.....someone would assume that I burned them. That's how strongly I feel about piracy.

I'm proud of my collection and also proud that I work hard enough to be able to afford them.

MIKE VICK#7

11-23-03, 10:06 PM

i havent burned any dvd's...and if i were to burn any dvd's it would be season sets of tv shows that probably wont be released...like the 90's X-Men cartoon or the 90's Spider-Man cartoon

jessecrx

11-23-03, 10:12 PM

Originally posted by duz
Yes. This is what I mentioned earlier. Medium shifting is allowed as an exemption to copyright laws.
However it would not be legal for you to go buy a bootleg version on dvd since it was not made from your original. That distinction was show in the lawsuit against mp3.com. You are allowed to have backups or do a medium shift aslong as it is done from your own original and not from someone else's even if bitwise they are the same.
And to respond to X's comment on my comment there are many ways to backup or medium shift a dvd without breaking the css encryption and thus running afowl of the DMCA. I would go into my thoughts on the DMCA but I just don't have enough energy tonight.

Thanks Duz!

Now one more quick question. Would I be better off buying a DVD Recorder/Player or buying one for my computer?

There are also alot of old family VHS movies that I would love to put on DVD.....weddings, family holidays, etc. What would you suggest using if you were making backups of old movies, and family archival footage?

duz

11-23-03, 10:28 PM

Originally posted by jessecrx
Thanks Duz!

Now one more quick question. Would I be better off buying a DVD Recorder/Player or buying one for my computer?

There are also alot of old family VHS movies that I would love to put on DVD.....weddings, family holidays, etc. What would you suggest using if you were making backups of old movies, and family archival footage?

For ease of use get a settop dvd recorder, those are made to be easy. If you want versatility then get a DVD burner for the PC. With a PC Burner you can make fancy menus, do all sorts of stuff. It'll just take you awhile to learn it and figure it out. Unless you have a Mac then use their DVD software and it'll be easy. Plus you can use PC burners for data storage.
The computer section of this forum can provide you with lots of help/info. :)

duz

11-23-03, 10:34 PM

Originally posted by MIKE VICK#7
i havent burned any dvd's...and if i were to burn any dvd's it would be season sets of tv shows that probably wont be released...like the 90's X-Men cartoon or the 90's Spider-Man cartoon

About 20 or so eps of X-Men have been released on DVD. :) They seem to release a 5 ep disc twice a year. Same with Spider-Man 'cept they've only got 12 eps out.

aaryn

11-23-03, 11:09 PM

Jason, not everyone is a top DVD collector. Some people like to collect stamps :)

Btw, I agree with Duz, a DVDR for PC is much more versatile. You can create menus, do PC backups, create FX, mix video/sounds.. etc etc etc etc.. And they're cheaper..

whomod

11-23-03, 11:22 PM

God. It was tedious reading 4 pages of self-righteous moralizing.

Since it's always been my beleif that this site has an excessive amount of "industry" here, all this rhetoric is probably because one of them probably the guy with the red goatee in that stupid "pirating" promo at the movies. Usually when that comes out, I give a loud "AAARRRGGGHHH!" (pirate-like) and laughter usually follows. Yep. Just because a majority does something illegal doesn't mean it's right or moral. Sort of like prohibition. And you know how that unpopular law ended up. DMCA, i'm looking at you.

As for "fair use". If I own it, I can do whatever the hell I feel like with it. Whether or not Jack Valenti can grease the palms of our government-for-sale to have them say otherwise. That includes making a backup. Since in reality, I am buying a license and the studios by all rights should replace a damaged disc since i've already paid for the license and not for the storage device. But they don't do that now, do they?

Don't the studios already get a percentage from the sale of burners and blank discs anyways??

i myself have seen DVD-R's with great packaging and cover art. It's not that hard to do. Plus you can indeed get almost identical quality from a DVD rip as the original.

I wouldn't actually go as far as saying i've ever done any of that seeing as how I wouldn't put it above these industry types here to start taking names and turning people in.

I'll just end by saying the best way to end DVD piracy is to make them so affordable that it isn't worth the time or effort. The industry actually does a pretty decent job of this as the average DVD retails now for about 9.00. This is something that the RIAA will probably just discover the day they're repo-ing Hillary Rosen's office chair.

chipmac

11-23-03, 11:23 PM

I find the arguments here ironic because most of it sounds like the one I have with a co-worker.

I'm against pirating and never have downloaded movies or MP3s but I'll admit to copying a friend's CD from time to time just like I used to make tape copies of albums and tapes years ago. Besides the morality and legality of this argument comes the ramifications of our actions down the road IMO. Because of the ease of which we can make bit for bit copies of music and music and the ease of which it can be shared on the internet I feel it's a much bigger problem than the handful of friends making copies of albums like year's past. Sure it was still illegal copying and pirating of somebody's commercial property but in those days we were just making copies for a handfull of friends not posting it on the internet and sharing it with potentially millions of people so the amount of financial impact was much less to the artist IMO.

My co-workers arguments for making pirated copies are many but his main points are that he feels that theater prices are too high and by downloading movies he gets to see many films he wouldn't otherwise see. So I tell him to wait until it hits DVD and then he can buy or rent it but he says that DVD prices are too high for puchase and rentals are a rip off since you don't get to keep it. So he downloads them, burns them, makes his own labels for the disc, downloads or creates his own DVD covers and buys amray cases to keep them in. So I then counterargue that between materials and his time he'll probably spend about as much per disc as I do buying through Columbia House and mine are all full discs with none of the extras missing and of the best quality. He still doesn't get it.

So now I throw at him that the piracy problem is so big in the studio's mind that it will have a ripple effect on all of us in the future. Things like higher prices for DVDs, more inconvenient copy protection on discs that could degrade quality and cause player incompatibilities and looking further down the road the problem of the requirement of a DVI connection for HD-DVD, HD STBs and other up and coming technologies so that many of us with HDTVs without DVI will not be able to see HD-DVD at it's full resolution or enjoy the benefits of these other HD features down the line without an expensive upgrade in equipment. He still didn't get it or care because he says that he could care less if some high paid exec at some movie studio doesn't get his bonus or that other people that bought too early into HDTV need to buy again.

Finally when it came out that the MPAA was cracking down and going after some people like the RIAA he gave pause. Then he received a letter from his internet provider and he realised that he could get caught that was enough to make him stop downloading but it hasn't stopped him from borrowing from friends in order to make copies.

So if my co-worker is in any way a representation of the mindset that some of these pirates have then the only thing to make them stop is a legal mess. Morality and ethics and quality and collectability and future proofing your investment mean nothing to the idea that if it's out there to be taken it must be free and free is better then paying for it as long as you don't get caught.

MrMacabre

11-23-03, 11:24 PM

Originally posted by aaryn
Burning disc is stealing? Stealing what? Danm, if downloading MP3s is stealing like the way you're talking, 80% of the people on this planet is a thief.

Exactly!

All of these self-righteous people calling your a pirate and comparing it to physically stealing are probably the same jokers with KaZaA running in the background of their desktop grabbing the latest Britney Spears p.o.s.

It reeks of hypocricy.

It's just because they collect original DVD's does stealing content via burning / downloading suddenly become taboo. How about all the people that collect original CD's / Vinyl?

All we are getting irrelevant metaphors and analogies about things as off-topic as murder [go figure??]. Taking a step back for a moment, I'd like to remind everyone that the intention of this thread was created by someone seeking opinions regarding justification of a specific mindset, not a morally based yet flawed Clash of the Titans between a bunch of holier-than-thou's bashing their chests proclaiming how illegal it is when aaryn and others try to answer the very question that was asked.

If people want to get into legalities further or brag about the size of their authentic collections, they should start another thread.

SBrooks1

11-23-03, 11:25 PM

Originally posted by vice86
I wonder how many people on this board actually rent, rip and burn but are just to afraid to admit it.

I admit it openly and without guilt. I buy DVD cases and print out DVD covers for everything I copy. I've been downloading VCD's and SVCD's for a long time. Now I've moved on to DVD-R's. It's just too easy. I can rip a movie and burn it to DVD-R in 45 minutes. I'll be doing a "rent, rip and burn" with XMen 2 this Tuesday too. The only DVD's I buy anymore are ones like Family Guy, Indiana Jones, LOTR: Extended Editions, Sopranos, Band of Brothers. I'll continue to buy those no problem. But when it comes to your everyday releases like XMen 2 and Hulk, sorry It's getting DVD-R'd.

SBrooks1

11-23-03, 11:27 PM

MrMacabre, your comments in this thread have been spot on. Brilliant!! :)

whomod

11-23-03, 11:28 PM

Originally posted by MrMacabre
Exactly!

If people want to get into legalities further or brag about the size of their authentic collections, they should start another thread.

Thank YOU!

That's all DVD Talk ever is. A bunch of well paid middle aged guys forever bragging about how much dough they have for DVD's.

Of course they frown upon piracy. They can afford to be oblivious to it.

Static Cling

11-23-03, 11:45 PM

Originally posted by whomod
That's all DVD Talk ever is. A bunch of well paid middle aged guys forever bragging about how much dough they have for DVD's. I didn't realize that the DVD Talk census numbers had come out for this year. :)

- moderately-paid twenty-something

groovrbaby

11-24-03, 12:07 AM

Holy crap, just read this and now i really want to post.

I'm proud of the things I put onto DVD-R's. TV shows, mostly, like MTV's Spiderman and Ed, a couple of movies, mostly rented, but NEVER anything d/led off of kazaa. I pirate things, sure, but for some reason, I just feel plain BAD when I download a movie, so I never do it. I'm not a particularly moral person, but that irks me for some reason. Call me a walking Jumbo Shrimp.

Anyways, I've gone to great lengths to build myself a computer that could honestly be called a Bootleg Machine. Between the TV Tuner, the digital cable that runs into it, the DVD burner and extra DVD drive, and the fact that the computer gets used for nothing else, it may seem that I don't want to pay for any dvd's ever again.

Strangely, this is not true. Since I built that, I've recorded TV shows and burnt a few to DVD. I work at Blockbuster and get 5 free rentals a week. If I wanted, I could boost my collection by 5 movies a week, granted, they would be bootlegs. So far, of my over 80 rentals, I've burnt 3 movies, 2 of which were OOP. I find this hard to believe. I have 53 DVD's, not counting boots, and I am proud of all of those movies.

I realized that I love TV. I built a $700 system to take TV shows and put them on DVD, on freakin' Blockbuster wages, I might add. When there is a will, there is a way.

I am in college and I live in an apartment. I have a 13" tv and a cheap as all hell DD5.1 system. My freakin' computer monitor is bigger than my tv. Seriously college students, there are other ways to get movies than by bootlegging them.

talemyn

11-24-03, 02:06 AM

Wow! This thread grew fast . . . and mostly due to many truckloads of b-s rationalization.

Let me start out with the facts. I have 200+ DVD's and my old collection of ~450 VHS (was 500+ at one point). Every single one was bought. I started my collection of VHS in college, and probably had 100-200 by the time I graduated. How did I do it? Well, in addition to my over full-time courseload, I had two jobs. Now, I have a good job where I have to work hard and often for long hours and I have some extra spending money that I can use to buy DVD's. If I don't have the money at the tima and it is a "must have", then I decide whether or not to a) go without until I can afford it (e.g., The Alien Quadrilogy) or b) put it on my credit card and accept that I may have to deal with the extra interest as a consequence of "needing" it now.

Okay . . . now on to the reponses . . . Originally posted by sracer
Let's keep things in perspective here. The only "moral" issue with copying discs is that it is illegal. And as such, the morality of following the law is the same as obeying the legal speed limit. Does that mean that if someone were to rape a member of your family, that would be the same as breaking the speed limit too? After all, it's "only" illegal. There is nothing physically missing . . .Originally posted by MrMacabre
I ask these very people - Have you ever downloaded a solitary mp3 without paying for it? Honestly? If the answer is no, then you're a league above the rest and are truly your brother's keeper. If not; get off your high horse.Yes . . . when I was younger and didn't know better, I did download MP3's and kept them. Then I realized that what I was doing was wrong and I stopped. Any MP3's that I have been given or downloaded since then are either 1) downloaded with permission, or 2) downloaded for to see if I like them. In the second situation, I erased after a) I purchased the CD, or b) decided that I didn't like them (similar to the legal borrowing of DVD's from friends, listening to the radio, or listening to streaming clips online).

Anyway, just because someone has done something wrong in the past, it doesn't mean that the give up the right to realize that it is wrong afterwards.Originally posted by puddytay
If companies dont want people to copy stuff then they need to get some lobbists down to congress and get DVD burners band. Its as easy as that. If people cant copy there is no piracy. Its like these dvdr companies are trying to entrap the customers. People dont buy 100 packs of dvdrs and a dvd burner to just burn files off their computer. They know why people buy them and dont care.
. . . .
I dont see how they can find this illegal if they legalize dvd burners. It makes no sense. Seems to have already been handled, but it still bears noting that it is a fairly ridiculous statement . . . should internet fraud be legal because computers, web browsers, and code development tools are? It is not illegal to use DVD recorders . . . it is illegal to misuse them.Originally posted by aaryn
Here's an example why I would rip a DVD:

I saw Black Hawk Down in theatres, liked it a bit. It's out on DVD. I rent it to watch it again, then decides to make a backup of the movie. First of all, the original DVD already contains no extras, so I have not lost anything extras-wise. Secondly, with the equipment I have (38" tube TV), I see almost no difference between the real and the copy. Third, it's not really a movie I'm in love with, so there's not really a justified reason I would put out 15$ to buy it, and probably, would only watch it once a year. Maybe less. Fourth, I'm a student, I've already paid 13$ to watch it in theatres, 5$ to rent it at BB. I have to pay shcool fees, clothes, books, ps2 games, music CDs, going out with friends, going to theatres.. etc. Why is it so bad to own a ripped copy of Black Hawk Down?Who says you get to do/have everything? There are many things that many of us would like to do/have that money does not permit us to. It doesn't make acquiring them by illegal means "okay". I'd really like to know why people think that instant and complete gratification is a right . . .Originally posted by Pariah
Yes, I consider what I do illegal. No, I don't care. The closest rental place to me that doesn't carry mainstream releases is 35 minutes away. The internet has become my rental place.Speaking of the internet as a "rental place", have you ever considered using NetFlix? It's inexpensive and the movies are delivered right to your home. It sounded like you might use a legitimate source if there was one readily available, that's the only reason I brought it up.Originally posted by Pariah
Some will read this and in their overabundence of morality will say I'm just justifying my illegal activities, but what I don't understand is how you can judge me? What makes you the moral authurity?Whether or not you see it, there are negative impacts, however "minor", on other people . . . including, somewhat distantly, some of us:

- The people who buy the DVD's can face increased prices for future DVD's due to an attempt to recover lost sales on old ones . . .
- Video stores who should be receiving income from people renting are losing out because people illegally download instead (which can can lead to lost jobs) . . .
- Various artists, technicians (let alone actors), etc. are not receiving all of the money for which their work, ideas, time, etc. entitles them . . .
- Studios may reduce the number of titles that they will release as the result of low purchase numbers of previous releases . . .
- The list goes on . . .

Basically, the people who object to these illegal actions are the people who are, in one way or another, being negatively impacted by them.

Now, I'm not saying that there aren't things that I do wrong that have a negative impact on other people, but if it is brought to my attention or I realize it on my own, and I am able to stop whateve it is that I am doing, then I do what I can to keep from doing it.Originally posted by whomod
Thank YOU!

That's all DVD Talk ever is. A bunch of well paid middle aged guys forever bragging about how much dough they have for DVD's.

Of course they frown upon piracy. They can afford to be oblivious to it. I'm not even sure if I know how to respond to this one . . . it is possibly the biggest pile of inane crap that I have seen in this thread so far. Stop shifting blame onto others. Because there are some people in this forum who are doing financially better than you are doesn't mean that you are exempt from the rules. It's life . . . sometime you have to put up with disappointment . . . the sooner you realize it, the better off you are going to be. It's not like we are talking about starvation here . . . we are talking about MOVIES. You can live without them if you can't afford them. What's even better, you can get a library card and get them for free at the local public library.

Okay . . . I feel all caught up now . . . :D

Blade

11-24-03, 04:03 AM

Burning disc is stealing? Stealing what? Danm, if downloading MP3s is stealing like the way you're talking, 80% of the people on this planet is a thief. You are getting something you're supposed to pay for to get, without paying for it.

That this is so hard for so many to understand is just amazing.

Philip Reuben

11-24-03, 04:54 AM

Originally posted by Blade
You are getting something you're supposed to pay for to get, without paying for it.

And that's not stealing, because no one is missing an object at the end of it.

That this is so hard for so many to understand is just amazing.

Ditto. As has been stated in many piracy discussions on many forums, it's copyright infringement, not stealing. There's a subtle but notworthy difference.

DeadLamb

11-24-03, 05:10 AM

The pirate mindset comes down to two main thing and only these two things; Risk to reward and cost to level.

Risk to reward is simple. It's pretty clear that the risk is almost nothing unless one is looking to resell. Tell someone you shoplifted this and that, odds are many will say "That's wrong". Show the same person pirate satellite TV or 100's of DVD-r's they tend to say "Cool! What can we watch? Can I barrow that film?" .

Then you have cost to level. Retail DVD costs $10-$30 and a DVD-r cost $1.50. Ok so it's clear on a pure monetary level there is a large gap. Of course there is also the cost of time but we are talking about an hour max, not days. Anyone really going to say that less then an hour of background running applications is this long drawn out process of huge effort?!?!? Please, it's not...

Ok what about d/l films? Load a web site that lists movie , one click to load a newgroup/irc program.. D/L over night, burn to dvd-r. Next to zero effort. (no I will not tell anyone about websites url's don't ask)

So all that is left is level of the movie. Many disks copy one2one, others one might lose all the extras but the film and sound track are still one2one copy. Other films end up getting crushed to hell in size but that is not the norm. So all that is left is the package of the retail DVD vs a sharpie marked disk. On that level the pirate tends not to care.

So there ya go..No risk, huge trade off in cost for a very low trade off in level of any given film. That's the mindset of a pirate. Way to solve the problem? Give even more bonus stuff on retail DVD's so that a pirate copy is even a greater lose of stuff. Make 2 dvd sets the norm so one has even more motive to buy the DVD's. Encode even higher rate so that a copy is that much less, not just 5% loss of level. Maybe knock the cost down some? I don't really think that too fair being $15 for a film is pretty damn cheap as it is. Big problem is most films do not warrant a 2 dvd set and superbit like encode.

I have a DVD buner but I have also bought $1,000s worth of retail DVD's.. I like to own a film, not just a sharpie marked disk but too many of you act like pirates are spending 4 days to get a grainy junky copy of a film. That is just not the case and spreading myths like that is not helping to sove the problem. On some level I don't know it can be solved. I just hope studios keep putting out films that reward the buyer over the pirate. So we all keep buying them.

talemyn

11-24-03, 05:11 AM

Originally posted by Philip Reuben
And that's not stealing, because no one is missing an object at the end of it.

Ditto. As has been stated in many piracy discussions on many forums, it's copyright infringement, not stealing. There's a subtle but notworthy difference. Oh good grief . . . that's nothing but semantics, and not even very good semantics . . .

From Merrian-Webster (only the applicable definitions):

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Main Entry: steal
Pronunciation: 'stE(&)l
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English stelen, from Old English stelan; akin to Old High German stelan to steal
Date: before 12th century
intransitive senses
1 : to take the property of another wrongfully and especially as an habitual or regular practice
transitive senses
1 a : to take or appropriate without right or leave and with intent to keep or make use of wrongfully <stole a car> b : to take away by force or unjust means <they've stolen our liberty> c : to take surreptitiously or without permission <steal a kiss> d : to appropriate to oneself or beyond one's proper share : make oneself the focus of <steal the show>

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

None of them say anything about having to be an object . . . and property is not necessarily physical (e.g., "intellectual property").

chipmac

11-24-03, 05:31 AM

Just to add to what talemyn and many others have tried to point out. Copyright infringement is stealing of not only the intellectual property that is included on the material being pirated but also the monetary rights of the people involved in it's creation. Like my co-worker who I mentioned in my previous post who thinks his stealing is only effecting the studio boss and the high paid stars of the film; I try to explain to him that this type of stealing also reaches down to the hired crew who worked on the film and the people who produce, create and distribute the DVD itself. The amount of money in lost sales due to this type of theft trickles down to all of these people.

I also didn't expand on it further before but my friend who prints out labels, cover art and buys keep cases has to have his costs add up to more than the $1.50 for a blank disc to the point that the cost of the purchase of the legal disc should be a wash when his time is also accounted for along with ink, glossy paper and labels. I'm sure he can't be the only one who goes to all of this trouble when he burns his own discs. So if the cost is a wash I don't see the point in going to all of the trouble.

Philip Reuben

11-24-03, 06:46 AM

Are we talking about theft in the legal sense or theft in the everyday-speech sense? If the latter, fair enough... I assumed the former (but even though, I don't know as much about US law as I probably should if trying to argue about something like that, so I'll just quite while I'm... not ahead -smile-).

We can at least agree that a law is being broken, so you're right, it's semantics.

Originally posted by chipmac
Copyright infringement is stealing of not only the intellectual property that is included on the material being pirated but also the monetary rights of the people involved in it's creation.

Let's imagine a fictional person called Mr A. There is absolutely no chance that Mr A would ever buy Movie X on DVD. He thinks DVDs are too expensive, and he didn't like the movie that much anyway. He decides he'll live without it.

Then there's Mr B. There is absolutely no chance that Mr B would ever buy Movie X on DVD. He thinks DVDs are too expensive, and he didn't like the movie that much anyway. He gets a bootleg copy instead.

It should be clear that no one involved in the production of the movie loses money from Mr B getting the bootleg, just like no one involved in the production of the movie loses money from Mr A not getting the movie. I think this is a very real scenario in many cases, and a point that far too many people ignore - is the company really losing money if someone would never have bought the DVD in the first place anyway?

TomOpus

11-24-03, 07:15 AM

Several people have said "It's a movie I didn't care for anyways, so I'll burn it"

I can't understand why someone would want a movie they didn't care for?

Corky Roxbury

11-24-03, 07:43 AM

because they really do care for it, they are just cheap bastards who can't afford $10

I am only 22 years old and have over $30,000 in HT gear and movies, How? because I have a magical thing called a job. If I want a dvd I go to the store and buy it, if you don't have the money to buy the dvd, then guess what? You are not entitled to watch the movie

The homeless guy I see on my way to work, does not have money to buy a house is he entitled to steal your house, NO!!

and saying dvdtalk is filled with balding middleagers, has nothing do with the fact, that people support the studios for their work. SO when you become a bald middle aged loser :), will then you buy dvd's

sracer

11-24-03, 07:47 AM

Originally posted by talemyn
Wow! This thread grew fast . . . and mostly due to many truckloads of b-s rationalization.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by sracer
Let's keep things in perspective here. The only "moral" issue with copying discs is that it is illegal. And as such, the morality of following the law is the same as obeying the legal speed limit.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Does that mean that if someone were to rape a member of your family, that would be the same as breaking the speed limit too? After all, it's "only" illegal. There is nothing physically missing . . .
Okay . . . I feel all caught up now . . . :D

If we're going to have a serious dialog then a serious response is required. Equating the copying of a DVD to the horrendous crime of rape simply shows that you have NOT put this in perspective (at best)... or callous (at worst).

There is a lot of high-horse riding in this thread by the "righteous indignant" who parade the number of DVDs they've purchased, and how much they admire the efforts of all those who worked in the film and that is why they buy the discs. They go on to say how there are moral implications beyond the simple fact that copying dvds are illegal... how these moral implications effect the movie industry and the people that work in them.

If you are SO concerned with the moral implications...

DON'T loan out your discs to friends and family. You are depriving Blockbuster of a few rentals. You are depriving Best Buy of a few sales.

DON'T resell your discs on ebay... again depriving companies of a sale or rental.

DON'T give away your discs... yet another way to deprive companies.

Obviously, the above are legal activities...and they are moral. But since we're all talking about the "ripple effect" of copying discs... we have to talk about the "ripple effect" of legally acceptable actions like these as well.

All that I was saying in my original quote (which apparently was too subtle for some) is that copying discs is illegal...end of story. Talking about the "moral implications" as if they were GREATER than breaking the law is just puffing people up.

Static Cling

11-24-03, 07:55 AM

Originally posted by puddytay
You people kill me and sicken me at the same time with all your messed up morals. All you people who say all of this is stealing are probably the same people who would drive past a bum bleading to death in the street. Why because you care to much about your own pride to give a damn. I bet all you people are relgious nuts. I cant justify your states of minds without putting that in my mind. Now who's exaggerating? :) Does it make you feel any better to demonize the people that disagree with you?
Also I would bet anyone 100 bucks out of the people who have posted who have said dvd coping is wrong has or has had a ton of vhs copies. I have not met 1 person who hasnt owned at least 20 copied vhs tapes. Either it be from HBO,Showtime,Cinemax normal tv. If its recorded off tv its illegal also by messed up government rules. I don't know about everyone else, but I take Paypal. :) And I'm pretty sure that you're mistaken... I thought you could record TV shows and movies from TV as long as the recordings were going to be used for private entertainment (as opposed to charging money for people to watch whatever you taped)? If what you say is true, I don't know how TiVo and ReplayTV haven't been shut down by now for breaking the law... their sole purpose is to make TV recording easier.

JM1

11-24-03, 07:58 AM

I have never bought, lent or even seen a DVD copy - all my discs are legit.

I am curious, though - how does the quality equate to the real thing?

In particular, the sound format. It cannot be true 5.1, surely?
A work colleague once offered me a copy of Spider Man, and when I asked him what the sound format was, he just looked at me blank and said, something like "You can hear it - what more do you want?".

Oh, a whole lot more than that, I replied.

Needless to say I declined.

But I am still curious to know how they compare...

Static Cling

11-24-03, 08:22 AM

Originally posted by JM1
I have never bought, lent or even seen a DVD copy - all my discs are legit.

I am curious, though - how does the quality equate to the real thing?

In particular, the sound format. It cannot be true 5.1, surely?
A work colleague once offered me a copy of Spider Man, and when I asked him what the sound format was, he just looked at me blank and said, something like "You can hear it - what more do you want?". Let's not start talking about this. Soon people will be talking about the quality of their bootlegs, and then people will want to know where they got them. Let's stick to the more general topic we've been on.

hoyalawya

11-24-03, 08:46 AM

After reading these five pages (bad way to start my Thanksgivings vacation), here is what I think. I have never burned any DVD. At the price that Columbia House offers, I do not see why I should go through all the troubles to make a copy. However, my mindset could change when home-burning a DVD-9 is available especially for the OOP titles. Will I feel guilty about it? Probably not. From what I remember, Congress has chosen not to make digital piracy a crime as long as one does not pirate digital contents in bulk. Also, copyright is a self-enforcing system and the most that the studios or the MPAA can come after me with is monetary damages. Will I be stealing something from someone? Probably. But I also do not want to pay $90 per season for the X-Files.

JM1

11-24-03, 09:00 AM

Static, I did not read all 5 pages of this thread, and don't know what twists and turns this conversation has taken.

But you misunderstand me - I totally abhor pirates, and will not watch, buy or rent pitare DVD's.

And for that sole reason, I was curious about the quality. If I don't watch them, how will I ever know how bad (I suspect) they are?

What's wrong with that?

For those who actually condone pirate DVD's, nothing in this thread is going to change their mind.

EPKJ

11-24-03, 09:10 AM

duz

11-24-03, 09:12 AM

Originally posted by puddytay
Also I would bet anyone 100 bucks out of the people who have posted who have said dvd coping is wrong has or has had a ton of vhs copies. I have not met 1 person who hasnt owned at least 20 copied vhs tapes. Either it be from HBO,Showtime,Cinemax normal tv. If its recorded off tv its illegal also by messed up government rules.

This is called time shifting. There was a big lawsuit over it when VCRs where first introduced. It is perfectly legal to record any TV signal for personal use. You are even allowed to make copies and give them to friends. You are not allowed to sell it or to put on a public performance of it.

hoyalawya

11-24-03, 09:16 AM

I am always amazed at the posts generated by this topic every time it is broached. The bottom line is that piracy is theft. People who commit theft are thieves. Theft is immoral. Period. End of argument.

Not to me. If digital piracy is "theft" then those who commit them should be "jail-able." However, Congress has chosen not to make them "jail-able." As long as it is not a crime, I don't think that people should equate digital piracy to common theft.

Brian Shannon

11-24-03, 09:20 AM

dryars

11-24-03, 09:27 AM

Im gonna make my comment short and simple:

I buy my movies because IM NOT A CHEAP A**. Now look I don't buy everything brand-new. Infact I'll concede that the majority of my movies are used. But nonetheless, I still own a legitimate copy.

EPKJ

11-24-03, 09:28 AM

"Not to me. If digital piracy is "theft" then those who commit them should be "jail-able." However, Congress has chosen not to make them "jail-able." As long as it is not a crime, I don't think that people should equate digital piracy to common theft."

So, do you lie to all your friends and cheat on your wife because these are not offenses for which you could be jailed?

hoyalawya

11-24-03, 09:36 AM

So, do you lie to all your friends and cheat on your wife because these are not offenses for which you could be jailed?

So you are saying that you never lied to anyone or never thought of cheating on your wife?

duz

11-24-03, 09:41 AM

Originally posted by EPKJ

So, do you lie to all your friends and cheat on your wife because these are not offenses for which you could be jailed?

What does that have to do with piracy?
Can you pirate women now?

jim_cook87

11-24-03, 09:50 AM

I think this thread has done an excellent job of illustrating the pircay mindset. At this point it is quite clear that those who illegally copy movies, music, etc. feel that owning a copy of a movie or song is a right, not a privilege. They refuse to accept that the creator of an idea or work of art is entitled to control distribution and to set the terms under which their work can be viewed, used, or distributed.

I'm sure they'd also have no problem with someone taking photos of them naked, engaged in sexual activity or committing illegal activities in their home and distributing those. After all, nothing has been stolen, nobody would've paid for the pictures anyway, and if they didn't want someone to take the pictures they would invest in better locks, doors and windows to stop even the most persistent peeping tom, who refuses to acknowledge that privacy is a right as is the right protect one's own intellectual property.

Chew

11-24-03, 09:51 AM

I'd be curious to know how many people who consider copying to be theft (and immoral) are posting their thoughts from their work computer.

hoyalawya

11-24-03, 09:54 AM

And I'm sorry people but recording off of TV IS ILLEGAL. I dont care what crap you read about vhs trading or whatever by law it it is still illegal. There is no difference from recording basic instict off of cinemax or copying the dvd. By law its the exact same thing. The reason Tivo gets away with this is because you techincally cant keep a movie. Well I guess you could but that would fill up quick. Also you pay that 14.99 fee each month which is distributed so no one gets angry.

No, it is not illegal. The Supreme Court of the United States said that recording broadcasted signal for home use is a LEGAL time shifting and copyright owner can do nothing about it. Technically, it is a copyright infringement but it is a justifiable infringement.

EPKJ

11-24-03, 09:56 AM

"So you are saying that you never lied to anyone or never thought of cheating on your wife?"

I have lied in my life, and it was wrong. I do not defend it and claim that it is a moral act. I am not married, but I have never cheated on any woman with whom I was involved. By the way, my personal sins have nothing to do with what is right and what is wrong. You are the one defending theft.

EPKJ

11-24-03, 09:57 AM

"What does that have to do with piracy?
Can you pirate women now?"

If you have to ask this, then you have said all that needs to be said about your values.

EPKJ

11-24-03, 09:59 AM

"I'd be curious to know how many people who consider copying to be theft (and immoral) are posting their thoughts from their work computer."

I am. I am the office Manager. I am also an independent contractor. This is one of my perks. What is your point? Are you posting when you should be working or are you just not working?

jim_cook87

11-24-03, 10:07 AM

Originally posted by puddytay
And I'm sorry people but recording off of TV IS ILLEGAL. I dont care what crap you read about vhs trading or whatever by law it it is still illegal. There is no difference from recording basic instict off of cinemax or copying the dvd. By law its the exact same thing. The reason Tivo gets away with this is because you techincally cant keep a movie. Well I guess you could but that would fill up quick. Also you pay that 14.99 fee each month which is distributed so no one gets angry.

Before you start spouting nonsense do some research. Check the U.S. Supreme Court ruling in Sony v. Universal City Studios, 1984 and the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals ruling in RIAA v. Diamond Multimedia, 1999. Recording programming from TV for personal use is perfectly legal.

hoyalawya

11-24-03, 10:10 AM

They refuse to accept that the creator of an idea or work of art is entitled to control distribution and to set the terms under which their work can be viewed, used, or distributed.

Unfortunately, the author's right you are speaking of exists only in Europe and not in the US. Once a copyrighted work passes the first distribution, the owner can do nothing about how the copied-work is further distributed.

I think my problem is generally with the current copyright system. It is beginning to look like tax law in that people with lobbying power are taking away the fair use rights and gaining unfair advantage over the ordinary citizens. Do you know that you cannot even make a copy of your legally bought DVD because it is technically an infringement? I do not say that piracy is right but I am a proponent of an expanded fair use. And I do think that the right to sample works should be included as a fair use.

jim_cook87

11-24-03, 10:19 AM

Originally posted by Chew
I'd be curious to know how many people who consider copying to be theft (and immoral) are posting their thoughts from their work computer.

Maybe you should be a bit more specific in your question: "How many of you are posting your thoughts from their work computer, and are payed hourly to do a specific job from shift start to shift end, or work for a company that has a policy prohibiting you from using your computer for personal use?"

A salaried employee is not necessarily paid to work set hours, they are paid to do a job.

Now an hourly employee or is a different story, but even then they are generally entitled to take coffee breaks, restroom breaks, and surf breaks may constitute a legitimate use of break time. Unless, of course, an explicit policy prohibiting personal use of computer equipment exists...

hoyalawya

11-24-03, 10:21 AM

Ok if it is legal to record off of tv whats the difference between copying dvds? You paid to rent the dvd just as you paid for the cable so what is the difference? I SEE NONE.

The point is that the owner has contracted with the cable company that his work can be "performed" publicly (through the wire) and accepted the risk that his work might be legally copied by the home users and obliterate their need to buy VHS or DVD copy of the work. The counter argument might be that people who rent DVD should also be able to time-shift their viewing experience.

MrMacabre

11-24-03, 10:30 AM

Originally posted by EPKJ
I am always amazed at the posts generated by this topic every time it is broached. The bottom line is that piracy is theft. People who commit theft are thieves. Theft is immoral. Period. End of argument.

Which is fine, but not the intended focus of this thread.

Originally posted by EPKJ (again! :rolleyes: )
So, do you lie to all your friends and cheat on your wife because these are not offenses for which you could be jailed?

This is so ridiculously irrelevant that it borderlines on threadcrapping.

Originally posted by jim_cook87
I'm sure they'd also have no problem with someone taking photos of them naked, engaged in sexual activity or committing illegal activities in their home and distributing those.

Another incredibly ridiculous (and perverted) analogy which I wouldn't normally bother with, except I think the poster needs to be informed the difference between copying a DVD and Invasion of Privacy.

MKSilv

11-24-03, 11:32 AM

I wasn't going to post but this thread has just gotten to the point where I must throw my two cents in:

Puddytay and all the other pirates: I can't help it that you don't understand the laws, Me, Jim Cook and the others who have been posting actual legal citations can only do our best to try to explain them to you. Just because YOU don't see the difference between taping off TV for private use and burning the DVDs, doesn't mean the law is the way you claim it to be. In fact things are quite the opposite. I will not post further legal citations that I doubt you will read anyway, but sometimes in an argument, it is ok just to step back and say, "I'm sorry, I was wrong on "X" issue."

However, for your continued education, the origins of the decisions related to timeshifting, taping for private use and taping CDs for use in the car all stem from a time when the copies were not as good as the originals and would degrade through repetitive use (otherwise known as the the pre-digital era). Admittedly, the arguments have flaws when we talk about an era with exact duplicates, TIVO, etc, but that is the whole problem with piracy.

People who are to sell pirated material will do it no matter what the format. There were copies of Pulp Fiction selling on VHS on the street corner a day after it opened in the theater. Some people would buy it and some recognized the quality sucked so bad, that they didn't want to bother with it.

The modern day difference is that the technology makes it easier for the honest members of society to cross the moral line. If one can now get a digital copy of "Return of the King" even before it opens,in the theater it is harder to stay honest and not buy the bootlegged copy

For the record, I am a 28 years old and yes I make a decent living. I don't pirate for numerous reasons that include moral, legal, financial and risk to benefit considerations.

I, for one, actually believe that piraters will ruin movie production long term. If a movie studio won't make their money back, they will stop greenlighting expensive yet risky ventures. Movie production budgets will be scaled back and movie quality will suffer because of it.

Spiky

11-24-03, 11:54 AM

Funny. Typical. Boring. I had to check the dates to see if I accidentally pulled up the thread on piracy from last month, or September, or August, or July, or.....

Why don't we discuss something else? You guys will never convince pirates they are thieves, they just don't get it.

chanster

11-24-03, 12:00 PM

I love these threads...they are always so enlightening.

bootlegging is a crime, you can get fined and if it is big enough you can go to jail. Just because the government doesn't send people who copy X2 to jail does not make it any less of a crime

Personally, I wouldn't bootleg because
(a) Its a crime
(b) Its not worth it - if I like a movie enough, I will buy it. If I don't like it, I won't buy it. Maybe I'll rent it, maybe I won't.
(c) Looking at purely financial reasoning, it would cost you anywhere from $4-$7 dollars to make a reference style copy of a movie. Not worth it when movies are $14 during release week.

jim_cook87

11-24-03, 12:24 PM

Originally posted by MrMacabre
Another incredibly ridiculous (and perverted) analogy which I wouldn't normally bother with, except I think the poster needs to be informed the difference between copying a DVD and Invasion of Privacy.

You're concerned about privacy but not concerned about violating another persons rights to control the use of their work?

The pro-piracy arguments here have been littered with utter disregard for the rights of the copyright holder, partially on the basis that it is not stealing. Invasion of privacy involves no theft (using the definition that has been tossed around in this thread.) So why are you concerned about your right to privacy but not the rights of a copyright holder to control their thoughts, ideas, and work?

Privacy and copyright protection provide some very valid points of comparison as the violation concerns an individuals non-physical personal property (thoughts, deeds, and ideas) and a persons rights regarding those less tangible possessions. If you find the idea of your privacy being invaded so abhorrent, then ask yourself why you can justify a similar type of "theft" from people who willingly put there thoughts and ideas out in public in exchange for the income that copyright protection is designed to afford them...

They did not put their private thoughts, ideas, and works out via a movie studio/major distributor because they wanted to give away their personal work, or because they wanted people to freely distribute the work without them benefitting. They did it because they expected the viewers to adhere to the laws and afford them an income.

Maybe this will point to the validity of my previous analogy. Say you have a photograph of yourself au naturel, you show it to your significant other. You tell your significant other that this photo is not to leave the house, it is for their own personal use only. Later, your significant other brings over their laptop and scanner and scans the photo, then begins to distribute it. The photograph never physically left the house, and your SO says "I was just showing it to my friends, for personal reasons..." That's the argument you are making in support of piracy...

The copyright owner said "Here's a movie, you are allowed to use it in this way only (insert copyright information and law.)" You are using it in a way other than was intended by the owner of the movie's copyright, much like your SO misused the right to your personal photo.

chipmac

11-24-03, 12:41 PM

hoyalawya said:
I do not say that piracy is right but I am a proponent of an expanded fair use. And I do think that the right to sample works should be included as a fair use.

I find this point interesting. What besides the ability to make personal backups would you like to see expanded and included as a fair use? How much of a sample would you need to see to help justify a purchase? What kind of sampe are you looking for. You can already see the trailer for any movie and decide if it's worth your time and money.

When it comes to music CDs there are many online stores who now have a few seconds of song samples from each song on the CD. With movie DVDs should they have a minute of viewing from each chapter? Should you be able to view a few minutes from the bonus materials?

Again this is an argument my friend and I have regarding seeing movies in the theater. Many times his justification for downloading movies is that going to the theater is too expensive and most movies aren't worth it. So he downloads the movie and watches it on a computer monitor. If he likes it enough he'll burn it to disc but if he feels it sucked he can just delete the file. Now I think most of us can agree that the theater prices are high in many cases but how many things are you able to try or sample before you decide to purchase? Sure you can test drive a car and try on clothes to see if they fit. You can also shop for a TV and see the picture even if it doesn't look the same in your home. But try and go to a restaurant, order a meal and then don't pay the check or only pay a percentage because you didn't like it or felt it wasn't worth what they charged. Some things just don't work that way. Sometimes you need to understand that the right and the privilege for some things needs to be payed for ahead of time and not after you've determined if it meets your standards of what is worth your money.

MKSilv

11-24-03, 12:50 PM

Originally posted by puddytay
Heres a question for you people. Lets say someone owns 500 original dvds that they bought thereselves. Ok. Then decides he wants to sell them all. He copies them all before he sells the originals. How is this wrong? The movie company got your money from the original purchase so how is this hurting anyone?

So do you people not agree with me they should ban DVDR drives to the public if they dont want stuff copied? I would be all for this. [/B]

You still don't get it.....DVDR drvies aren't illegal.....I am free to copy home movies of my kids to my heart's content and I am not breaking any laws.

Also, under your hypothetical, while I wouldn't have a problem under that situation, the law says differently.

Darren Garrison

11-24-03, 12:52 PM

Originally posted by MKSilv

I, for one, actually believe that piraters will ruin movie production long term. If a movie studio won't make their money back, they will stop greenlighting expensive yet risky ventures. Movie production budgets will be scaled back and movie quality will suffer because of it.

Good. I hope that DOES happen. I hope that studios WILL start concentrating on stories and not getting the highest-priced actors and the biggest explosions. I think movies would be improved if the budgets were cut back by about 50 to 75 percent.

matome

11-24-03, 12:54 PM

MKSilv

11-24-03, 01:00 PM

Originally posted by Darren Garrison
Good. I hope that DOES happen. I hope that studios WILL start concentrating on stories and not getting the highest-priced actors and the biggest explosions. I think movies would be improved if the budgets were cut back by about 50 to 75 percent.

Come on think before you write. With that logic, Lord of the Rings would have never been made. Spending money and spending money in the right places are two different things.

chanster

11-24-03, 01:00 PM

Good. I hope that DOES happen. I hope that studios WILL start concentrating on stories and not getting the highest-priced actors and the biggest explosions. I think movies would be improved if the budgets were cut back by about 50 to 75 percent.

What are yout talking about? A reduced budget will not neccessarily mean better stories....studios release movies that will make money and are geared at people that go to the theater - teenagers. So be prepared for "3z Fast 3 Furious" or "Timeline 2: Back to the Middle Ages"

Static Cling

11-24-03, 01:05 PM

Originally posted by MKSilv
I wasn't going to post but this thread has just gotten to the point where I must throw my two cents in:

Puddytay, Static Cling and all the other pirates: I can't help it that you don't understand the laws How'd I get lumped in with puddytay? The last time I checked, I was disagreeing with him! :)

Static Cling

11-24-03, 01:10 PM

Originally posted by puddytay
But since you people insist that recording shows off of tv isnt illegal I guess I am in the clear. When you cite actual laws or court decisions supporting your belief, as was done by the people who say that recording TV shows is legal, then we'll believe you.

MKSilv

11-24-03, 01:12 PM

Sorry Static..My apologies for incorrectly luumping.....looked at the wrong post when I put your name in....will correct it.

fnordboy

11-24-03, 01:18 PM

Originally posted by Darren Garrison
Good. I hope that DOES happen. I hope that studios WILL start concentrating on stories and not getting the highest-priced actors and the biggest explosions. I think movies would be improved if the budgets were cut back by about 50 to 75 percent.
I think you missed the point, hihg priced actors and biggest explosions etc are the movies that make the money. Story based films are not the big box office draws. What would happen if studios started losing enough money from piracy, bootlegging and such they would only start making the films that are a sure sell (Die Hard 15).

fnordboy

11-24-03, 01:23 PM

Originally posted by puddytay
Heres a question for you people. Lets say someone owns 500 original dvds that they bought thereselves. Ok. Then decides he wants to sell them all. He copies them all before he sells the originals. How is this wrong? The movie company got your money from the original purchase so how is this hurting anyone?
When you buy a DVD you have given the studio the money to own that item. If you sell it off you are transferring ownership to someone else, and getting the money (in theory) that you are owed for not owning this item anymore (sometimes more, sometimes less). If you make copies of the movies and then sell your original then YOU are making money off of someone else's COPYRIGHTED material, while still keeping a version of the item you originally paid for.

So yes, it is hurting the studio who has lost out on another sale.

profbobo

11-24-03, 01:37 PM

Originally posted by calhoun07
I was talking tonight to somebody about Pirates of the Caribbean and how I want to get it when it comes out and what a great DVD it will be and all, and of course it will probably be 14.99 or 15.99 when it comes out. He said, as if he was proud, that he already downloaded it and burned it and watched it. I know that copy cannot be as good as the DVD I will get Dec 1st, that it has to be a rip of a bootleg copy, and I know the quality has got to suck. Or at least not be that great. But I didn't even comment on the quality of bootlegs issue, I simply pointed out that he didn't get the great bonus features that will be on the DVD, not to mention the contents of the second disc. He just stated again that he already watched it and I guess that was enough for him.

My posistion on doing this kind of thing is that I don't really see a point if the DVD will come out soon enough as it is. Why waste time downloading it and burning it when it will be on DVD in a better version in just a couple weeks? I know somebody who got a bootleg copy of Kill Bill and asked me if I wanted one and I was like, "Why? It's coming on DVD in a couple months?" Does he think he did something good by getting the bootleg? He wasted $20.00 in my estimation, a HUGE waste of money for an inferior copy and no bonus features. And what gets me he is the kind of person that will whine when studios release bare bones DVDs at a lower price.

Will I ever understand the mindset of DVD pirates? No, probably not. I don't have a burner, but if I did, I would probably use it like I use my VCR, to record shows on DVD when I am not home and watch them later. Maybe I would record shows to save on DVD, but I would rather own the good quality season sets when they come out later on.
Quality is only an issue with recent (i.e. theatrical) releases; a sizeable portion of the DVD-R scene focuses on screener or retail rips.

jim_cook87

11-24-03, 01:44 PM

Originally posted by puddytay

So do you people not agree with me they should ban DVDR drives to the public if they dont want stuff copied? I would be all for this.

There are many legitimate and legal uses for DVD-R.

-When I get a new PC, as soon as I have it configured "perfectly" I create a ghost image of the hard drive and store it to DVD, that way if I ever have a problem I reghost the machine.

-We have a digital camera and a digital camcorder, we burn our photos and home movies to DVD.

-I back up my personal data (documents, spreadsheets, bank accounts, software installers, patches/updates, etc.) to DVD-R, one DVD-R beats two (or more) CD-R...

-At work we transfer many gigs of data frequently, and DVD-R is a great medium for shuttling data around as well as backing it up.

Like any technology DVD-R has legitimate and illegitimate uses, outlawing the technology because it can be misused is the wrong solution.

EPKJ

11-24-03, 01:45 PM

"Ok if it is legal to record off of tv whats the difference between copying dvds? You paid to rent the dvd just as you paid for the cable so what is the difference? I SEE NONE."

If you buy a DVD, you have the right to copy it for your own personal use. If you have not purchased a DVD, then making a copy constitutes theft.

hoyalawya

11-24-03, 01:52 PM

Originally posted by jim_cook87
Privacy and copyright protection provide some very valid points of comparison as the violation concerns an individuals non-physical personal property (thoughts, deeds, and ideas) and a persons rights regarding those less tangible possessions. If you find the idea of your privacy being invaded so abhorrent, then ask yourself why you can justify a similar type of "theft" from people who willingly put there thoughts and ideas out in public in exchange for the income that copyright protection is designed to afford them...

They did not put their private thoughts, ideas, and works out via a movie studio/major distributor because they wanted to give away their personal work, or because they wanted people to freely distribute the work without them benefitting. They did it because they expected the viewers to adhere to the laws and afford them an income.

Maybe this will point to the validity of my previous analogy. Say you have a photograph of yourself au naturel, you show it to your significant other. You tell your significant other that this photo is not to leave the house, it is for their own personal use only. Later, your significant other brings over their laptop and scanner and scans the photo, then begins to distribute it. The photograph never physically left the house, and your SO says "I was just showing it to my friends, for personal reasons..." That's the argument you are making in support of piracy...

The copyright owner said "Here's a movie, you are allowed to use it in this way only (insert copyright information and law.)" You are using it in a way other than was intended by the owner of the movie's copyright, much like your SO misused the right to your personal photo.

Your analogy is misplaced. In the right of privacy context, you are asking to be left alone. In the copyright context, you are asking people to hear (or buy) what you have to say. There is a fundamental difference between the two. The right that you are alluding to is "droit moral" - the artist's right of integrity - which does not exist in the US. In your photo hypo, I did not ask that the photo be published or not asking people to pay for it. In the context of a DVD, the copyright owner is saying that the only thing I can do with the disk is to put it in my player and push "play." Don't even think about writing a program to archive the DVD because we wan't you to buy a new disc if it goes bad. Moreover, I cannot invite friends outside of my "social cycle" to watch the DVD with me since it is a violation of the author's public performance right. I don't like having people telling me what I can do and cannot do. If I have bought something from the store, I should be able to do anything I want to it except to make a profit out of it.

hoyalawya

11-24-03, 01:54 PM

Double post

digitalboy

11-24-03, 02:01 PM

My 2.5 cents....

I collect DVD's. I have an addiction :) .
At last count, I had about 850 or so.
I have one dup.
I have a DVD Burner.
Most of my "dup's" will be for my kids.
If they screw up their copy of Harry Potter, Lion King, or whatever,
I dont have to buy another one. (Well, I dont HAVE to anyway, but THAT'S another story.)

My take on the "pirating issue". Sure, the governement says it's wrong, and of course, so do the artists/developers that are having their "livelihood" threatened, and to a degree, a lot of folks here do too. I try not to be too judgemental of others and their habits, because what may be anathema to me, might be panacea to them and vice versa. EVERYBODY does things that are morally and legally wrong, me included. Ever send off for more than 1 rebate on 1 item? WRONG . Ever lied to out of a ticket? WRONG. Who am I or anyone else to condemn "piracy"? Morals are like ass cheeks, EVERYBODY has a different set.

I don't buy "bootleg" DVD's because I've seen friends copies and they look like crap. "Copied" DVD's are different ,and, as have been stated before can look just as good as the original.
Will I watch one at a friend's house? Sure. Will I make my own?
Probably not. One thing though, If I do decide to, I wont let the "moral majority" or the "right" right, tell me not to. If I dont, it wont be because the "immoral majority" that I should.

To answer the original question, a lot of folks do it because its cheaper. Some folks do it as a protest against (what they feel) is a substandard product. Some folks do it fo the thrill of getting something for (relatively) nothing. I undestand why they do it.
I just choose not to. I alsso choose not to judge them for their choice.

chanster

11-24-03, 02:02 PM

I don't like having people telling me what I can do and cannot do. If I have bought something from the store, I should be able to do anything I want to it except to make a profit out of it.

You agree by the terms of the "license" when you purchase the DVD. If you don't like the license, don't buy the DVD.

As for profit, if you make copies for other people free of charge, they are profitting from it.

hoyalawya

11-24-03, 02:39 PM

Originally posted by chanster
You agree by the terms of the "license" when you purchase the DVD. If you don't like the license, don't buy the DVD.

As for profit, if you make copies for other people free of charge, they are profitting from it.

Too bad, I am one who does not respect their licensing agreement. Let's see what they can do. However, I doubt that they will come after me when I arrange a surprise birthday party (with guests outside my social "norm") for my significant other and show their beloved works on my shiny new TV set.

chanster

11-24-03, 03:00 PM

doubt that they will come after me when I arrange a surprise birthday party (with guests outside my social "norm") for my significant other

You are the one making things up now. Nowhere does it say you cannot show a movie on your TV in your own home during a party. (Well if you were charging admission to the party and you were advertising it as a the main feature that might be a bit different)

Your paranoid delusions are pretty far out. No one has ever said showing a DVD at a private party in your home is against the license you have.

El-Kabong

11-24-03, 03:01 PM

I cant speak about pirated movies, since I don't own any. However I have thousands and thousands of MP3s. And I have no guilt about copying all my friend's CDs.

Why no guilt? Because the music industry is a broken business model ran by greedy and selfish pigs who only look out for themselves. They screw artists, giving them pennies on the dollar for every record sold. They strong arm artists into giving up the rights to their music. They keep record prices artificially high. They refuse to adapt to a consumer friendly method of distribution, clinging to an outmoded system that keeps their wallets fat.

In short, they don't disserve my patronage.

Should artists get paid? Of course. If I were to bump into Duran Duran (or Weird Al or John Williams or Beethoven) on the street, I would happily and gladly give them 20 bucks right then and there on the spot for all their hard work. And considering the stranglehold the recording industry has, that's about 1,000 times more than they would ever see from all the album sales.

Is it thievery? Yeah, when you get right down to it - past all the semantics and 'intellectual property' arguments, it is. Is it, however, immoral? Not even close.

chanster

11-24-03, 03:03 PM

Because the music industry is a broken business model ran by greedy and selfish pigs who only look out for themselves.

And the movie industry isn't? The slippery slope of "who deserves to be robbed and who doesn't" is pretty steep.

Cornelius1047

11-24-03, 03:13 PM

Originally posted by duz
What does that have to do with piracy?
Can you pirate women now?

Only if you call them wenches.

God, this thread is long.

K

chanster

11-24-03, 03:27 PM

One 20 dollar CD will net you - what, 74 minuts of music and some liner notes (if you're lucky). One 20 dollar DVD could potnetialy net you a movie, documentaries, audio commentary, trailers, and all kinds of other bells and whistles. A moderately packed DVD could be worth 4 or 5 hours of entertainment.

In short, it's a much better deal.

Thats your opinion. If you listen to a CD for years, which most people do, you sure as heck have gotten more than 4 or 5 hours of entertainment.

El-Kabong

11-24-03, 03:27 PM

Originally posted by chanster
And the movie industry isn't? The slippery slope of "who deserves to be robbed and who doesn't" is pretty steep.

Well, I haven't done much reading on the movie biz - I can assume that it's corrupt to the core, but dont actually know for sure for myself.

And really CDs vs DVDs - well, they're not quite the same thing. For just about the same price, a DVD is a MUCH stronger value for the money.

One 20 dollar CD will net you - what, 74 minute of music and some liner notes (if you're lucky). One 20 dollar DVD could potentially net you a movie, documentaries, audio commentary, trailers, and all kinds of other bells and whistles. A moderately packed DVD could be worth 4 or 5 hours of entertainment.

In short, it's a much better deal.

hoyalawya

11-24-03, 03:27 PM

You are the one making things up now. Nowhere does it say you cannot show a movie on your TV in your own home during a party.

I did not make that up. For audiovisual work, "public performance" is one of the rights protected by the copyright law. I took copyright law last year so I am prety confident. I do not have the statute so I cannot cite the specific section number. Case law has intepreteded "public performance" to mean showing of the work for audience outside one's social norm regardless of admission fee. That is why the FBI warning says "for private home viewing only." Do you also know that if you open a restaurant, you cannot have more than one television set showing a copyrighted TV show? Or else you will have to pay someone in Hollywood (I think).

chanster

11-24-03, 03:31 PM

I did not make that up. For audiovisual work, "public performance" is one of the rights protected by the copyright law. I took copyright law last year so I am prety confident. I do not have the statute so I cannot cite the specific section number. Case law has intepreteded "public performance" to mean showing of the work for audience outside one's social norm regardless of admission fee.

I really want to know what law school you are attending so I can avoid it. A movie shown in your home with invited guests for non-commerical purposes is not a "public performance"

El-Kabong

11-24-03, 03:33 PM

Originally posted by chanster
Thats your opinion. If you listen to a CD for years, which most people do, you sure as heck have gotten more than 4 or 5 hours of entertainment.

And if you watch the DVD over and over and over again - which most people do - you'll have all that entertainment x5.

I'm talking just ONE viewing/listening. 74 minutes vs 2 hours of movie, 2 hours of commentary and half an hour of documentary and 5 minutes of trailers. That's 4 and a half hours against just a touch over an hour.

MKSilv

11-24-03, 03:36 PM

Originally posted by hoyalawya
I did not make that up. For audiovisual work, "public performance" is one of the rights protected by the copyright law. I took copyright law last year so I am prety confident. I do not have the statute so I cannot cite the specific section number. Case law has intepreteded "public performance" to mean showing of the work for audience outside one's social norm regardless of admission fee. That is why the FBI warning says "for private home viewing only."

If this is typical of the legal education Georgetown law is sending out, we in the legal community are in trouble. This goes to show that a little knowledge is dangerous.

Hoyalaw, I defy you to find a case citation that defines or interprets a birthday party for your significant other as an "audience outside your social norm."

My advice, a little less time ripping DVDs and a little more time studying for finals. Go hit the books and hope copyright law is not on your state's bar exam.

chanster

11-24-03, 03:49 PM

I'm talking just ONE viewing/listening. 74 minutes vs 2 hours of movie, 2 hours of commentary and half an hour of documentary and 5 minutes of trailers. That's 4 and a half hours against just a touch over an hour.

Hmm. 74 minutes versus 2 hours is pretty much a tossup in my book. I dare you to say with a straight face you will listen to a directors commentary "over and over again" over the years.

But thats just a minor issue...the issue you brought up is that its ok to rip off artists (and yes you are ripping off John Williams when download his music) and music companies because they are greedy, while the movie industry is just a nice little group of folks trying to put of the best product and therefore deserve to get paid.

El-Kabong

11-24-03, 03:57 PM

Originally posted by chanster
But thats just a minor issue...the issue you brought up is that its ok to rip off artists (and yes you are ripping off John Williams when download his music) and music companies because they are greedy, while the movie industry is just a nice little group of folks trying to put of the best product and therefore deserve to get paid.

I know it's an unusual stance for the forum, but I decided to aruge a point I actually knew something about instead of making an assumption and shooting off my mouth. :)

But you're probably right. The movie industry are probably a big bunch of lazy corrupt rich bastards getting richer off the backs of the artists.

succubiss

11-24-03, 04:01 PM

I do backup dvds occasionally. As far as i'm concerned for all the detractors, if any of you have downloaded a single mp3, then you and me are on equal ground morally.

All I really care about is primo video and sound quality. Extras be damned. I will continue to purchase discs that can't be compressed onto 4.7GB discs at 75% or better.

PacMan2006

11-24-03, 04:02 PM

Can someone explain how you can even burn a DVD? Don't they all come with encryptions--something like RCE and or macrovision that won't allow this to take place.

Second, do most movies fit onto DVD-R's? I'm new to all the burning stuff relatively. I knew you could burn CD's and VCD's, but I guess I never thought about the ability to take an entire DVD and make a copy of it evenly onto a brand new DVD-R.

Or is everyone strictly talking about DOWNLOADING a movie and then burning it to a DVD-R, because it does seem like both are possible.

C_Fletch

11-24-03, 04:11 PM

"Some will read this and in their overabundence of morality will say I'm just justifying my illegal activities, but what I don't understand is how you can judge me? What makes you the moral authurity?"

You judged yourself by posting. Next time don't let your guilt get to you.

"There is no law that forces us to buy everything legally, even if we don't(do?) have spare money for."

And there's the answer.........the piracy mindset wraped into one simple statement.

duz

11-24-03, 04:22 PM

Originally posted by PacMan2006
Can someone explain how you can even burn a DVD? Don't they all come with encryptions--something like RCE and or macrovision that won't allow this to take place.

Yes, a painfully simple encryption.

Second, do most movies fit onto DVD-R's? I'm new to all the burning stuff relatively. I knew you could burn CD's and VCD's, but I guess I never thought about the ability to take an entire DVD and make a copy of it evenly onto a brand new DVD-R.

Many fit with just removing extras, menus and audio tracks, some you have to recompress.

Or is everyone strictly talking about DOWNLOADING a movie and then burning it to a DVD-R, because it does seem like both are possible.

Yes, that is possible too.

Pariah

11-24-03, 04:32 PM

Originally posted by talemyn Speaking of the internet as a "rental place", have you ever considered using NetFlix? It's inexpensive and the movies are delivered right to your home. It sounded like you might use a legitimate source if there was one readily available, that's the only reason I brought it up.

I've been thinking about NetFlix, just the idea of renting over the internet has me apprehnsive. (before someone makes the joke...I will....I don't rent over the internet, but I can steal? how odd)

Originally posted by talemyn Whether or not you see it, there are negative impacts, however "minor", on other people . . . including, somewhat distantly, some of us:

1) - The people who buy the DVD's can face increased prices for future DVD's due to an attempt to recover lost sales on old ones . . .
2) - Video stores who should be receiving income from people renting are losing out because people illegally download instead (which can can lead to lost jobs) . . .
3) - Various artists, technicians (let alone actors), etc. are not receiving all of the money for which their work, ideas, time, etc. entitles them . . .
4) - Studios may reduce the number of titles that they will release as the result of low purchase numbers of previous releases . . .
- The list goes on . . .

Basically, the people who object to these illegal actions are the people who are, in one way or another, being negatively impacted by them.

(numbered your points for clarity)

1) I maybe didn't make it clear, but if I steal (let's be honest, that is what downloading is) a movie and like it, I buy it. Right now looking at movies I've downloaded, I'm behind by seven movies available in region 1, three movies not yet released, five movies in other regions, and a few OOP. Tuesday I'll be going out to buy four of those movies (two not yet released ones). The movies in other regions I buy when I get a chance, which won't be until after christmas when I have some spare cash. The OOP ones will be I don't know when.

2) I have nothing to say against this, because you are right.

3) See point one. The people I feel should get money get it. When I download something and feel ripped off because I detested the movie so much, I happy I didn't go rent or buy it and tell studios I want more trash like that.

4) I feel that my methods actually increase what studios will release, because not only do I buy little known releases, I convince my friends to buy it.

Let's take a recent senerio. I saw a movie called "Intersate 60" up for download. After checking imdb I saw it was from Bob Gale (writer of Back to the Future) so I decided to download it. After watching it, I loved it. I checked to see if it was avaliable for purchase, it wasn't on dvd at all...in any region. I looked to see if it was in theatres or was coming, it wasn't. I went to various rental places, as far as an hour away, no one had it. There wasn't even a festival I could hop on a play to go to and see this movie. The only version I found was a VHS on ebay, in PAL format, that was a rental copy. Now, had I bought it from ebay, the studios still wouldn't know I wanted more movies like that. This situation me downloading it didn't hurt anyone...since there was no way for me to give anyone money to see this movie. Now the week it finally came out I went looking for it on that friday. Wal-Mart, FYE, Target, anothert Wal-Mart, Hollywood Video, Blockbuster, Best Buy, another Target, yet another Wal-Mart, Circuit City, and another FYE...none had it. I go into Suncoast, they didn't have it at the new releases, and the employees hadn't heard of it. I looked anyway, like at all the other stores. I found it in the comedy section, it didn't even have the white strip on the top with the title of the movie. $26.99. I knew I could get it online cheaper, but since I was there, and they had three copies, I bought it. A few days later I showed some my friends, the next day they went to Suncoast and bought the remaining copies. So how exactly did my downloading this movie hurt anyone? Had it not been for downloading I never would have heard of this movie.

I know a lot of people don't do things how I do, they just download and that's all. I on the other hand love watching special features of the dvd, the commentary, the delted scenes, the special effects features...all of it. I will continue to download, and will continue to buy.

C_Fletch

11-24-03, 04:32 PM

"Can someone explain how you can even burn a DVD? Don't they all come with encryptions--something like RCE and or macrovision that won't allow this to take place."

That would be illegal but I'm sure you can do a google search and find out. Anything can be cracked........eventually. Today maybe not but whenever any authority says something can't be done somebody comes along to say "FU, I just did it!!". People will always buck the system, whether it'd DVDs, CDs, etc, etc, etc. There will be HD-DVD. A few months or years later there will be HD-DVD X-copy. Then the studios will sue, fair-rights groups will cry foul, the government will stick their nose into it. Then it will start ALL over again. Copy if you must. I don't care. There will ALWAYS be the majority of the public buying movie X to keep the greedy studios drinking their champayne. At the same time the pirates will pirate, the youngsters will copy, etc, etc.

Is it illegal? Yes it is. Will it ever stop? Not in this lifetime or next. Putting the justifications and morality aside, this is a never ending battle to a never ending problem. It's just become a MORE apparent issue now that the internet is all encompasing. Getting something for nothing is why it is done. I think the reason college students do this more than older adults is that there is a much larger peer set in college than there is when you an adult. Also, interests in college tend to revolve around movies, music, games and the like. They have the technical backbone to do these types of things more easily than someone with a 56K connection. They KNOW more people that have the technical no how. Keep in mind that I am generalizing but the truths remain.

Chrisedge

11-24-03, 04:52 PM

People have long said "Make CD's more affordable, and we will buy them" Well, DVD's are a much better value (Hours of entertainment, as stated above), sometimes cheaper, and are still copied.

Bottom line to all this: If it can be copied, some folks will do that. Some folks won't.

I have had a burner for several years, and have yet to bother making a DVD of anything that was available for purchase. (I use it for transfers for OOP laserdiscs, Bootleg concerts, etc...)

mr_jbloggs

11-24-03, 05:37 PM

I can't believe people can be so patient when downloading a movie from the internet and I can't imagine the quality to be that great either.

duz

11-24-03, 07:07 PM

Originally posted by mr_jbloggs
I can't believe people can be so patient when downloading a movie from the internet and I can't imagine the quality to be that great either.

Patient? I can download 15 gigs while I sleep. Its no big deal to people with broadband.
And we've already gone into the quality.

thebunk

11-24-03, 08:50 PM

Originally posted by Chrisedge
People have long said "Make CD's more affordable, and we will buy them" Well, DVD's are a much better value (Hours of entertainment, as stated above), sometimes cheaper, and are still copied.

I strongly disagree with this statement. Quantitatively speaking, yes DVD offers more value in terms of hours of entertainment vs the CD. But, IMO the replay factor is a hell of a lot higher with a CD then a DVD. You may listen to a CD in many different venues (car, home, office, running via discman or ipod, etc.). I think it is a fair assumption that most people will listen to the average CD much more then they will watch the average DVD.

thebunk

11-24-03, 08:58 PM

Originally posted by mr_jbloggs
I can't believe people can be so patient when downloading a movie from the internet and I can't imagine the quality to be that great either.

You, and it seems most of the people on this board who are screaming pirate really have no idea what they are talking about when it comes to the quality of DVD copies. When you are thinking of a bootleg are you thinking of a blurred picture? Maybe something that was recorded from a camcorder in a theater with people standing up in front of the camera to get their popcorn? Don't get me wrong, there are those types of copies out there too but there are also prestine copies of retail DVDs as well.

The fact is I could play you a copy of almost any film from any DVD out there (with DD 5.1, 6.1 or DTS) and you would not know the difference. I am not saying that I am a pirate or even endorse piracy. I am just trying to add some fact to this thread that is obscured with smoke, mirrors and lies.

MrMacabre

11-24-03, 10:01 PM

Originally posted by thebunk
You, and it seems most of the people on this board who are screaming pirate really have no idea what they are talking about when it comes to the quality of DVD copies.
<snip>
The fact is I could play you a copy of almost any film from any DVD out there (with DD 5.1, 6.1 or DTS) and you would not know the difference. I am not saying that I am a pirate or even endorse piracy. I am just trying to add some fact to this thread that is obscured with smoke, mirrors and lies.

Exactly!

gcribbs

11-24-03, 10:03 PM

Originally posted by Corky Roxbury
because they really do care for it, they are just cheap bastards who can't afford $10

rotfl

so true.

why waste the time if they did not like it. so they rationalize that they do not like it very much and keep the ripped copy :lol:

aaryn

11-24-03, 10:24 PM

Okai, please don't mistaken these two different category:

1. The Bootleg Industry.

Mostly in Asia. DVDs are duplicated at a very inexpensive price, and are sold for about 2$. The quality of the image/sound are uber crap, most due to being recorded in the theatre with a camcorder. Those are being sold.

2. The Student Pirate.

Mostly everywhere. Students who loves movies, but don't have the money to buy all movies that exist. Tho, they wish they can have most of them. Those are the people who rip Retail DVDs, at average 90% the quality of the Retail. Sound is perfect. They do it for they own use. Either have the movie as a copy, or nothing.

As for me, I'm #2, and I'm totally against #1.

Look at it this way. From Philip Reuben's example on page 5, at least, Mr. B who is morraly incorrect, pays money to Pioneer for the DVDR drive, and pays money to Ricoh for the DVDR blank discs. Comparing to Mr. A (who doesn't spent a shit), Mr. B is not doing much damage, he's spending money. And don't forget that, sometimes, Mr. B is spending money to buy TTT: EE, because he HAS to own that DVD set.

I also would like to say that, sracer gave some nice points, that no one dared to answer.

I think the big difference between the two mindset in this thread is this:

The pirate: Sees both sides of the fences, and agree that the "legal" garden is nicer, but he stays in the uglier 'illegal' garden. He, however does understand the difference between the two garden.

The legal buyer: Sees only his side of the fence, being a nice garden. He don't want to take a look at the other side. He just keep pretending that the other side is ugly, and denies/ignore/don't care to hear any justifications. End of story.

And: there are those who stands on the legal nicer garden, but see and understand both sides of the fence. And I respect those.

If one of you go to a University and tell all the students to stop downloading/ripping/copying DVDs, and only buy legit DVDs, I think you'll get booeh and get laughed to death. And try to do that in an Asian University, you'll appear on the newspapers.

aaryn

11-24-03, 10:34 PM

TomOpus: Several people have said "It's a movie I didn't care for anyways, so I'll burn it"

Corky Roxbury: because they really do care for it, they are just cheap bastards who can't afford $10

gcribbs: rotfl so true. why waste the time if they did not like it. so they rationalize that they do not like it very much and keep the ripped copy :lol:

Okai, let's rephrase what TomOpus said into something more accurate: "It's a movie I didn't care enough to see the behind the scenes, and a movie I don't really care to own on DVD, especially for full price. Well, I'll burn this one, keep the money for another worthy movie."

Laugh as much as you want, I can also laugh at you paying 15$ for a DVD that others can have for 5$. Be proud if you wish, some people prefer to keep that money for other things.

And so friking what if the person decides to keep their ripped copies? His friend can borrow them. It's not your problem whatever he does with them. And those who have 1200 titles, do you think they can watch their movies everyday? I think half of those titles are sitting on their shelf. I have 30 DVDs and some I've never put in my player twice. Not everyone watches movies every hours.

gcribbs

11-24-03, 10:38 PM

Originally posted by aaryn
Okai, please don't mistaken these two different category:

1. The Bootleg Industry.

Mostly in Asia. DVDs are duplicated at a very inexpensive price, and are sold for about 2$. The quality of the image/sound are uber crap, most due to being recorded in the theatre with a camcorder. Those are being sold.

2. The Student Pirate.

Mostly everywhere. Students who loves movies, but don't have the money to buy all movies that exist. Tho, they wish they can have most of them. Those are the people who rip Retail DVDs, at average 90% the quality of the Retail. Sound is perfect. They do it for they own use. Either have the movie as a copy, or nothing.

As for me, I'm #2, and I'm totally against #1.

Look at it this way. From Philip Reuben's example on page 5, at least, Mr. B who is morraly incorrect, pays money to Pioneer for the DVDR drive, and pays money to Ricoh for the DVDR blank discs. Comparing to Mr. A (who doesn't spent a shit), Mr. B is not doing much damage, he's spending money. And don't forget that, sometimes, Mr. B is spending money to buy TTT: EE, because he HAS to own that DVD set.

I also would like to say that, sracer gave some nice points, that no one dared to answer.

I think the big difference between the two mindset in this thread is this:

The pirate: Sees both sides of the fences, and agree that the "legal" garden is nicer, but he stays in the uglier 'illegal' garden. He, however does understand the difference between the two garden.

The legal buyer: Sees only his side of the fence, being a nice garden. He don't want to take a look at the other side. He just keep pretending that the other side is ugly, and denies to hear any justifications. End of story.

And: there are those who stands on the legal nicer garden, but see and understand both sides of the fence. And I respect those.

If one of you go to a University and tell all the students to stop downloading/ripping/copying DVDs, and only buy legit DVDs, I think you'll get booeh and get laughed to death. And try to do that in an Asian University, you'll appear on the newspapers.

If you do not have the money then get a job and earn some so that you can buy the movies you want on dvd.

I find it funny you are against those in a third world country who would earn far less than you could at a job in fast food. while you think it is ok for you to steal .

funny stuff.

gcribbs

11-24-03, 10:48 PM

Originally posted by aaryn
Okai, let's rephrase what TomOpus said into something more accurate: "It's a movie I didn't care enough to see the behind the scenes, and a movie I don't really care to own on DVD, especially for full price. Well, I'll burn this one, keep the money for another worthy movie."

Laugh as much as you want, I can also laugh at you paying 15$ for a DVD that others can have for 5$. Be proud if you wish, some people prefer to keep that money for other things.

And so friking what if the person decides to keep their ripped copies? His friend can borrow them. It's not your problem whatever he does with them. And those who have 1200 titles, do you think they can watch their movies everyday? I think half of those titles are sitting on their shelf. I have 30 DVDs and some I've never put in my player twice. Not everyone watches movies every hours.

be honest and move on.

I am not a cop waiting to arrest you. so you steal movies you like and keep them- admit it and move on. why keep trying to prove it techinically is not theft because you would not have bought them otherwise.

why rationalize what you do then get defensive about it.

so what if I have more movies than you?

I think it is morally wrong to rip a movie that I do not own. sure you spend a bit less than me. I also have no worries about someone tipping off copyright holders who might decide to use me as a test case to scare some student rippers.


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