Just Saw Matrix: Revolutions (Thoughts) - Pt. II [Archive]

ScandalUMD

11-10-03, 01:26 AM

Originally posted by Ralph Wiggum
No, it does really matter. Just saying "he's the One" ain't a freakin' explanation. He's still a human being, made of human parts. This is science fiction, not magic fantasy BS.

I can suspend disbelief that they can broadcast a signal to hack into the Matrix because it's a natural consequence of current technology. Assuming you could create a VR simulation like the Matrix, and assuming there existed an interface to jack directly into the brain, then it's still a two way data stream and you can transmit it wirelessly via radio signals.

But having Neo do it without the help of machinery is a whole other thing. It implies that he has an ability inherent to him physically as opposed to an ability inherent only mentally. The first movie said he was "the One" because he could see the Matrix for what it was and control it to some degree. Okay, I can cope with that, because all it's saying is that he can adjust the data stream on a more fundamental level than the others and impose changes on the data in the VR simulation directly. Nothing physical about it.

Now at the end of the second movie and throughout the third movie, he's got powers that are more than data manipulation. He can send and receive and interpret radio signals directly, without the aid of obvious machinery. This is a much greater level of sophistication and it shoots my suspension of disbelief all to hell. Because now he's not a human with special mental capabilities, but a human with special physical capabilities as well. And without adequate explanation behind these physical capabilties, I don't buy it just because he's "the One". That's not a satisfactory reason.

I hate to break it to you, but science fiction, generally, is pretty much just a variation on "magic fantasy BS," and Neo is basically a superhero.

It's fans of sci-fi and fantasy who demand exacting sets of rules and painstaking internal consistency for the worlds that these stories inhabit. These rigid and convoluted structures serve the needs of a subset of fans, who live in Matrices of their own imaginary construction.

A few storytellers value the idea of a living, breathing world beyond the narrative. Tolkien did, and the keepers of "Star Wars" have turned what was once a fun cowboy movie set in space into an insanely geeky "universe" with rigidly enforced parameters.

However, such conceits do not necessarily suit the interests of narrative, and are generally beside the point. Obsess about it too much and you end up being the guy writing angrily to Fox because the same planet passed by twice in the background of a scene on "Futurama." It's called missing the point.

Neo is the One, and that's the explanation they give for why he is the only person who can fight Agents. That's the only explanation given for why he can fly in the Matrix. This is not explained.

It also isn't explained how they can call out to their operator using cell phones. It also isn't explained how their ships fly. Nothing, really, is explained because the technical parameters of the world and the scientific rules that the systems operate under it are not the main concerns of the film. Although the world of the Matrix is certainly a world destroyed by technological excess, the hypothetical is unquestionably designed by storytellers whose passions are based much more on the philosophical implications of The Matrix than on its scientific plausibility or its technical specifications.

In short, these guys aren't engineers or programmers. They're more concerned, for example, that the sentinels must look cool, and unconcerned with the technicalities that might govern the flight capabilities giant metal squids.

The fact that giant metal squids probably couldn't fly doesn't diminish my enjoyment of the films, so I don't see why I should be bothered by the fact that Neo can implausibly use his mystical powers to stop these implausible robots.

Here's something else that didn't bother me: How come they had to use the EMP to stop 5 sentinels in the first film, but in the third film, their ship had a bunch of machine guns? The answer: I don't care.

Pauly

11-10-03, 01:44 AM

Originally posted by Jackskeleton
though I wont say it was suppose to be a trilogy from the get go, but the ending to the first one was a little open ended.

A LITTLE open-ended? Uh yeah...Throughout the film Neo is heralded as the one that's going to save them all....it's made clear that the machines are going to have to be stopped....Zion is referred to numerous times and never shown.....and in the last scene Neo states that he is going to defy the machines and has new superpowers to do so. The first movie absolutely SCREAMS "sequel", whether some of you guys will admit it or not. The Wachowski's say they always intended it to be a trilogy and I believe them. As for Revolutions, I enjoyed it immensely and thought it a satisfying resolution to this story. I don't know what it is exactly some of you here wanted to see in this series(I'd like to see someone here write up an alternate ending) but when people in this forum bash this and yet PRAISE Terminator 3?? Please.

Pauly

11-10-03, 01:48 AM

Originally posted by Mopower
Revolutions makes no sense at all.

Actually Revolutions does make sense. What exactly didn't you understand Mopower? List the things and I'm sure I or others can explain them for you, very slowly if need be.

beefjerky

11-10-03, 02:04 AM

Look, I don't think the Wachowski brothers pumped the Matrix movies full of religious symbolism and ideas to get people to bitch about needing concrete scientific evidence for how Neo can control machines. Everyone's so pissed off because they wanted every single answer down to how each and every piece of machinery worked spoon fed to them.

Revolutions dealt with the divine, and in religion all of the questions won't be answered. For example, Christianity won't offer you concrete answers on why and how God is so powerful, or how Jesus did the things he did, or why we are here, but it will give you the beliefs that help you to cope with those questions and let you come to your own conclusions about the mysteries of the universe. Revolutions paralleled that, and rightfully so. We won't understand Neo, just like we'll never be able to understand the mysteries of Jesus, or Buddha, or any other deity.

People were bitching about why Neo couldn't stop the sword in Reloaded. That was there to drive in the point that Neo was still a man, no matter what incredible things he did. Just like Jesus and Buddha were still men, even though they both did extraordinary things. They both bled, and they both were mortal. People have lost sight of the true meanings beneath all the fancy scifi imagery. These movies used science fiction as a vehicle to present religious and philosophical thoughts, not to present ultra accurate scientific technology.

I just want to offer my opinions on what happened at the end of Revolutions. Let's have a quick recap from the beginning, and the examples of God and Heaven that I use are not necessarily in the Christian sense. Man created the machines, and from the machines sprung God, litterally "Deus ex machina." I say God sprang from the machines because the machines were far more powerful than man. I mean, the Oracle is a program that is all knowing. If that's not God-like, I don't know what is. For a while, man tried to control God, but that ultimately failed, and when they couldn't control God, they tried to destroy it. Man litterally waged a war with Heaven by scorching the sky and trying to kill God. Eventually God wins, and brings man back to it. The Matrix is created for man, and while it was meant to be an Eden, there were some who kept trying to escape by finding out the truth, like how Adam and Eve wanted to learn the truth by eating the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge. Those who ate the fruit, or in this case, the red pill, were banished from paradise into the fiery depths of the earth. While life outside the Matrix was miserable, at least they knew the truth and at least they were free. While the Matrix was this cold, static world, Zion was a world of raw human emotion and feeling, like the much-hated "rave/sex scene" of Reloaded demonstrated. So God banishes the herectics from paradise, but it doesn't end there. The Zionites keep coming into God's world and wreaking havoc and blowing shit up and spreading their gospel of truth. So God keeps punishing these sinners by destroying their world and killing them off, but there will always be sin, so the cycle keeps repeating itself.

Now, what happens to Neo at the end of Revolutions? Okay, so along comes the One, who is a man, but is also the son of God, and is also like Buddha in that he keeps coming back until he has freed all sentient beings from suffering. Why is he the son of God, the machines? Well, in Revolutions, the Oracle mentions that the One's power comes from the Source, which means that his divinity comes straight from the machines. Well Neo is the messiah, the Buddha for everyone, and he comes to end the war between man and God, and end everyone's suffering. At the end of Revolutions, he sacrifices himself, dying for the sins man has committed against God, and ending the suffering of all sentient beings like Buddha would. Neo dies for mankind, and he returns to Heaven (the machine city) to be seated on the right hand of God (shown by the very striking image of Neo's body being engulfed into the city of light), or in Buddhist terms, he frees all sentient beings from suffering and reaches nirvana. Now there are going to be some people out there, especially the Jesus freaks, who are only going to see Neo's journey only as a representation of Jesus's, largely due to the blatant crucifix emerging from Neo's body, but of course, there's so much more than just the Christian and Buddhist aspects of the movie.

Rehevkor

11-10-03, 03:31 AM

When reflecting on Revolutions, I've discovered that there are two different views that one can hold that will effect your understanding of the movie, and determine whether you think it sucks and makes no sense or that it's ingenious and very good.

The first view is that you assume that the real world as shown, including Zion, the wasteland, the hovercraft, etc, is actually real. If this is the case, Neo's abilities there are unexplained and mystical. Also, agent Smith's ability to enter a human body also seems implausible, although to a lesser degree. For anyone holding this view, the ending of the movie seems flat; not much changed, certainly not enough to call it a Revolution.

The second view is that the "real world" including Zion and so forth is NOT real, but a second layer of the Matrix. Here is some evidence to support this theory:

Neo's abilities and Smith's appearance in Zion are easily explained by this. If they are still in the Matrix, anything is possible. This also explains the implausible flight dynamics of the sentinels for the technical nitpickers. There are also hints to the idea of a dual-Matrix dropped here and there in the dialogue; the one I can think of right now is in Revolutions when the kid yells that the war is over, and Morpheus asks "Is this real?" as he looks around.

Furtermore, when you consider the thinking of a machine, a two-layered Matrix seems more likely than a single-layered Matrix. It would provide a much more effective control in that it would give humans what they lacked in the first version of the Matrix: choice. They could choose to live out their lives in the upper layer of the Matrix, the one aspect the Matrix they are truly aware of, or they could choose to fight the machines and escape to what they believed was the real world, but was in fact just another part of the Matrix. Thus humans would be granted the freedom necessary for their survival, and the machines would still maintain control over them.

If you accept this view, the events in Revolutions tend to make much more sense. In the end the humans believe they have won a great victory, when in fact everything they did was under tight control by the machines. They will relax in victory and become even more controllable, and far less likely to see the truth of the Matrix. Neo saw this truth, but he didn't have enough time to explore what he saw enough to understand it; possibly part of the attack on Zion was to keep Neo busy and prevent him from understanding the nature of Matrix. I'm getting into some deep speculation here though, so I could by guessing blind.

Finally, there's one fundamental thing to consider: What IS the Matrix? This question is central to the trilogy (hell, the website address is the question itself) but was it ever truly answered in the movies? The only way to destroy the Matrix is to understand it; the humans did not understand the truth of the Matrix, and thus they failed to destroy it.

It's somthing to think about, anyway, and a welcome change from the religious and philosophical theories :)

zero

11-10-03, 03:35 AM

I'll just download it so the Wichoski Brothers can't make anymore money from this shit.

You'll do what exactly?

ScandalUMD

11-10-03, 03:46 AM

Originally posted by Rehevkor

Furtermore, when you consider the thinking of a machine, a two-layered Matrix seems more likely than a single-layered Matrix. It would provide a much more effective control in that it would give humans what they lacked in the first version of the Matrix: choice. They could choose to live out their lives in the upper layer of the Matrix, the one aspect the Matrix they are truly aware of, or they could choose to fight the machines and escape to what they believed was the real world, but was in fact just another part of the Matrix. Thus humans would be granted the freedom necessary for their survival, and the machines would still maintain control over them.

If you accept this view, the events in Revolutions tend to make much more sense. In the end the humans believe they have won a great victory, when in fact everything they did was under tight control by the machines. They will relax in victory and become even more controllable, and far less likely to see the truth of the Matrix. Neo saw this truth, but he didn't have enough time to explore what he saw enough to understand it; possibly part of the attack on Zion was to keep Neo busy and prevent him from understanding the nature of Matrix. I'm getting into some deep speculation here though, so I could by guessing blind.

If Zion is another layer of the Matrix, then the machines have no need to destroy it to keep the free human population in check. Also, it stands to reason that if a percentage of humans become subconsciously aware of the first Matrix and reject it, then all subsequent layers would suffer a similar problem.

As for Smith, here's what happened: Bane is in the Matrix. Smith ate Bane, and then took over Bane's body in the real world by using the phone exit intended for Bane. We don't know whether this is consistent with what had occurred previously because the mechanism of exiting the Matrix through phones was never described in detail. It didn't seem inconsistent to me when I saw Reloaded.

As for Neo's ability, the movie doesn't give us any concept of the nature or limations of his powers. There's no reason to assume a second level of the Matrix because his powers manifest themselves in the real world.

Jackskeleton

11-10-03, 03:49 AM

You know what it was.. it brought me back to the day I saw Alien 3. the characters I have come to love in the first and second film were killed off, answers were no where and it just seemed to end for no reason and with no purpose. that's how I felt.

wm lopez

11-10-03, 04:14 AM

All I know is to be fair this 3rd MATRIX movie needs to trashed the same way the last 2 STARWARS movies have been trashed on the net.
When the 1st MATRIX came out in the same year as PHANTOM MENACE all we heard was how PHANTOM MENACE sucked and this new MATRIX movie was awsome.
Well it's time for justice, so layoff bashing the last 2 STARWARS movies and lets really hear it for this crap of MATRIX REVOLUTIONS.

chess

11-10-03, 05:17 AM

Originally posted by jough
I doubt it, because it was never intended to be a trilogy until it started to make a lot of money on home video.

There's nothing in the first one to suggest that it was meant to be a trilogy, no matter what Silver says now.

hilarious. there is a seemingly endless amount of foreshadowing in the first Matrix...moreso than would seem plausible for the brothers to have referred back to simply for continuity's sake.

a few off the top of my head:

the architect's monitors

"...way above normal...he's a machine"

the cookie

"...man born inside the matrix...freed the first of us"

"...man is a virus...yadda yadda yadda...i've been infected by it"

"what's really going to bake your noodle later on is, would you still have broken it if I hadn't said anything?"

"first matrix was a perfect world...a dream you kept trying to wake up from...crops were lost...redesigned to this"

"you're my savior...you don't exist"

the opening screen refers to a "search for anomole" which is not otherwise addressed in the film.

basically, i think denial is an empty argument in this case. if you want to forget the second and third films exist, that's fine, as the first one does stand on it's own...but i for one am glad to have the rest of the story.

Philip Reuben

11-10-03, 07:10 AM

Originally posted by Rehevkor
When reflecting on Revolutions, I've discovered that there are two different views that one can hold that will effect your understanding of the movie, and determine whether you think it sucks and makes no sense or that it's ingenious and very good.

Your mistake is assuming that these two views are the only two views - or even the only two broad categories of views - when in fact there are all sorts of understandings of the plot, and all sorts of opinions about the quality of the film which don't necessarily related to your understanding of the plot. Basically, people's opinions vary a hell of a lot.

Personally I think the whole "Matrix in a Matrix" idea is a big crock of shit - there's practically nothing in the movie to support it, and the "evidence" you have provided is extremely thin and, at best, proves that the movies don't explain things as well as they could. I can understand the viewpoint that "Matrix in a Matrix" is a possibility that hasn't been explicitly confirmed or denied, but acting as if the movie makes it absolutely clear and then commending the movie for it just seems silly to me.

Besides, the reason they didn't destroy the Matrix is because thematically a peaceful resolution is the only ending that makes sense. It would be deeply unsatisfying if the humans won using the same kill-or-be-killed mindset that got them into this whole mess in the first place. IMHO, of course :)

In any case, we can commend the movie for making us think a little, right? :D

God I love this movie...

Pauly

11-10-03, 07:18 AM

Originally posted by wm lopez
Well it's time for justice, so layoff bashing the last 2 STARWARS movies and lets really hear it for this crap of MATRIX REVOLUTIONS.

What are you 12 years old?

Groucho

11-10-03, 09:16 AM

I drag myself to see this over the weekend. A little better than Reloaded, but still pretty BLEH. They should have combined both movies together as one.

On a positive note, it was great to see Sinistar in his big screen debut.

PixyJunket

11-10-03, 09:55 AM

Originally posted by Groucho
On a positive note, it was great to see Sinistar in his big screen debut. :lol:

How did I *NOT* make that connection when I saw it? rotfl

chanster

11-10-03, 10:15 AM

I really love "Matrix in a matrix theory" It makes absolutely no sense and is just a way for people to see more into the movie then is there.

If it really was a matrix in a matrix - WHATS the point of watching the 3 movies?

The whole point of creating an "artificial reality" in drama is to show how a character breaks through that "reality" to discover the real world. If it really is a "matrix in a matrix" the movies have absolutely zero point - because no one has ever discovered the real reality

Of course, after seeing Revolutions, there is much of a point to it, even if Zion is real.

Groucho

11-10-03, 10:20 AM

Originally posted by chanster
I really love "Matrix in a matrix theory" It makes absolutely no sense and is just a way for people to see more into the movie then is there.It's pop deconstruction, and it's very popular in this forum. Several films have been "reinterpreted" with the "it was all a dream" explanation, even with nothing in the film to support the theory.

I didn't think much of the "MiaM" theory after Reloaded, and after seeing the second movie I'm shocked that people are still putting it forward. But to each their own...whatever makes people happy and keeps them entertained gets a :thumbsup: from me.

chess

11-10-03, 10:27 AM

Originally posted by Groucho
They should have combined both movies together as one.

i hate to suggest a "phantom edit" but i agree with that. I could easily pick out a half hour of scenes from each film, making one kick ass 3 hour movie.

bear with me, i'm thinking through this as i go...

from reloaded:

smith as human subplot
morpheus' zion speech
rave/sex scene edited
neo's talk with the counselman (good but no payoff)
fight with the oracle's bodyguard
orgasm cake...although the ideo of food as code is important
the fight in the car

from revolutions:

all things train station...suffice it to say that merv has neo
most of the stuff with link's wife...felt contrived to me
shorter zion battle...given their EMP defense system :rolleyes:
smith as human subplot
skyscrape gone, death scene shorter

pretty sure that would end up in the neighborhood of 3 hours.

Otto

11-10-03, 10:40 AM

ScandalMUD: Actually, you were quoting me, not Ralph Wiggum. ;)

Originally posted by ScandalUMD
I hate to break it to you, but science fiction, generally, is pretty much just a variation on "magic fantasy BS," and Neo is basically a superhero.
No, that's just the problem. He wasn't made into a "superhero" until the end of the second movie. The first movie had hints, but nothing that you could honestly say was intentionally a hint, beyond the point of reasonable doubt.

It's fans of sci-fi and fantasy who demand exacting sets of rules and painstaking internal consistency for the worlds that these stories inhabit. These rigid and convoluted structures serve the needs of a subset of fans, who live in Matrices of their own imaginary construction.

A few storytellers value the idea of a living, breathing world beyond the narrative. Tolkien did, and the keepers of "Star Wars" have turned what was once a fun cowboy movie set in space into an insanely geeky "universe" with rigidly enforced parameters.
What bunk! Tolkien invented whole new LANGUAGES in order to keep his stories consistent in and of themselves. He didn't consider his world subject to change as he told the story. That's why he spent so much time and effort in creating that world before he stuck one word down on paper. He wrote whole histories and backgrounds of the invented reality he had created so he could be consistent in his telling of it. Anyone who knows the history or who has even watched a documentary on Tolkien can tell you that.

If you want to just make crap up as you go along, that's fine, if you're good at it. Most people are not that good at it.

But the problem with the Matrix movies is largely that it feels much like they were making it up as they went along. That's why the third movie is so wacked out by comparison to the first two. I find it hard not to believe that they had a good idea and script for movie one and only wrote two and three because someone dropped a few truck loads of cash onto their front lawns.

If your story is inconsistent with itself, then it's unbelievable and keeps you from identifying with the characters in the story. The first movie did so well largely because people identified with Neo. The second movie lost some of that, but not all of it because he only had powers in the Matrix itself. The third movie turned Neo into all around super dude and nobody could identify with his character anymore. That's the real problem here.

However, such conceits do not necessarily suit the interests of narrative, and are generally beside the point.
"The interests of narrative"? That's the sort of phrase you get when you read too much about crap like "the art of storytelling" and don't actually write anything worth reading.

Story telling is not about the story, it's about the people you're telling the story to. If they think it sucks, then it sucks. End of discussion, bucko. You can have all the refined elegant artsy types think it's a masterful work of art if you like, but that doesn't make it worth diddly to the majority of the people who are there to hear something engaging and interesting.

Obsess about it too much and you end up being the guy writing angrily to Fox because the same planet passed by twice in the background of a scene on "Futurama." It's called missing the point.
You're the one missing the point here. I'm not obsessing over detail, I'm asking for some of the MAIN PLOT POINTS IN THE STORY. It's one thing to complain about a little piddly thing in one corner of the screen for three frames, it's wholly another to complain about a major plot point like the fact that Neo could convienently make the machines blow up in reality just by thinking about it.

Neo is the One, and that's the explanation they give for why he is the only person who can fight Agents. That's the only explanation given for why he can fly in the Matrix. This is not explained.
Certainly it is. It's explained quite well in the first movie. It is, in fact, the main point of the first movie. You might consider watching it again.

It also isn't explained how they can call out to their operator using cell phones. It also isn't explained how their ships fly.
It isn't necessary to explain these things. They are minor points of the plot. Neo being able to control machines using only his mind is a major plot point and it is not explained or even hinted at very well.

Nothing, really, is explained because the technical parameters of the world and the scientific rules that the systems operate under it are not the main concerns of the film. Although the world of the Matrix is certainly a world destroyed by technological excess, the hypothetical is unquestionably designed by storytellers whose passions are based much more on the philosophical implications of The Matrix than on its scientific plausibility or its technical specifications.
That's great. You can go focus on the philosophical ramifactions all you like. I'm not unaware of the points made in the film on that level myself. However, the philosophical points they actually make are neither a) new, b) original, c) interesting to anyone over the age of 16. I think some of them date back to the Greeks. :p

In short, these guys aren't engineers or programmers. They're more concerned, for example, that the sentinels must look cool, and unconcerned with the technicalities that might govern the flight capabilities giant metal squids.
Who's complaining about engineering aspects? Not I. I'm complaining about major plot points here.

The fact that giant metal squids probably couldn't fly doesn't diminish my enjoyment of the films, so I don't see why I should be bothered by the fact that Neo can implausibly use his mystical powers to stop these implausible robots.
Because Neo using his mystical powers is important to the story. The fact that he can do this is the only reason he's able to get to 01. The fact that he can't do it that well is the direct cause of Trinity's death. The fact that he can see when he's blind is the catalyst for an important revelation (Smith in Bane's body) and the means he uses to reach 01 itself.

Here's something else that didn't bother me: How come they had to use the EMP to stop 5 sentinels in the first film, but in the third film, their ship had a bunch of machine guns? The answer: I don't care.
The ship did have machine guns in the first film. They just didn't have any reason to use them, and at the time they were found by the sentinels, there were too few people to operate them and make any difference anyway. And again, this is a minor point instead of a major part of the plot.

Philip Reuben

11-10-03, 11:14 AM

The main reason I'd much rather keep Reloaded and Revolutions as separate films is that they're very different stylistically, and there's a definite break in the plot between them (the Architect's speech just wouldn't have worked as well in the middle of a movie). Plus I loved every minute of Revolutions. But I can see how people would disagree...

Originally posted by chess
morpheus' zion speech

This is the only one I'll comment on. Morpheus' speech puts into context the mindset of Morpheus and the people of Zion. The idea that they are independent, they are free, they have escaped. They are doing something the machines don't want them to do, and they'll carry on doing it because they've suceeded so far, even though the machines didn't want them to.

The revelation that Morpheus is totally, totally wrong is quite poignant, and I think the earlier scene is necessary to provide the contrast.

Daytrip

11-10-03, 11:56 AM

i found the movies entertaining, end of story. you can toss all your gripes out the window, i don't care if you think it's unoriginal, if you think the SFX suck, if you think it's trying to preach to people, i could care less. i liked the movies pretty simple when you get down to it

PixyJunket

11-10-03, 12:09 PM

Originally posted by chess
i hate to suggest a "phantom edit" but i agree with that. I could easily pick out a half hour of scenes from each film, making one kick ass 3 hour movie.Don't forget to take out the scene with Colonel Sanders, the most pretentious scene of Reloaded. That's 30-40 minutes right there.

Groucho

11-10-03, 12:14 PM

Edit the two films together and trim the following two scenes to a reasonable length:

The Rave

Trinity's Death

And you'd have a lean 1 hr 30 minute film.

jim_cook87

11-10-03, 01:47 PM

Originally posted by ScandalUMD
If Zion is another layer of the Matrix, then the machines have no need to destroy it to keep the free human population in check. Also, it stands to reason that if a percentage of humans become subconsciously aware of the first Matrix and reject it, then all subsequent layers would suffer a similar problem.

Which is precisely why on a regular basis the machines would destroy Zion. When the mathematical probability of someone recognizing Zion as just another construct reached some pre-determined level you reset Zion to avoid just such a discovery.

Originally posted by ScandalUMD
I hate to break it to you, but science fiction, generally, is pretty much just a variation on "magic fantasy BS," and Neo is basically a superhero.

Sci-fi and fantasy are often erroneously lumped to together but true sci-fi and true fantasy are distinctly separate types of fiction. The first Matrix was pure sci-fi. It started with the world we know, threw in some scientifically plausible change (AI and virtual realities) and explored what could transpire with those scientific advancements. It all fit together logically, the science was plausible, if something was not explained you could rely on what you knew to be true in our reality as it was our reality that was extrapolated to create the world of the Matrix. Nothing forbids a work of sci-fi from being philosophically or religiously thematic or allegorical, in fact many of the greatest works of sci-fi revolve around religious, philosophical or sociological ideas and ramifications.

With Reloaded and Revolutions the Wachowski's did one of two things, they either continued the Trilogy as a work of pure sci-fi, or they chose to turn the story into a work of fantasy. If it is sci-fi, then the answer "because he is the One" and blind acceptance of miraculous powers in the "Real World" are not acceptable, but if it is intended to be fantasy, that is sufficient. If it is intended to be sci-fi, then matrix-in-a-matrix sufficiently answers all the questions, and enough evidence exists to support the theory, but unfortunately this is not stated, but can only be reached through supposition...

The question is did the Wachowski brothers decide to scrap the pure sci-fi basis of the Matrix in writing Reloaded and Revolutions and turn Matrix into Fantasy. Or did they maintain a work of sci-fi, but make the clues very obscure and subtle and thus open for debate?

Since the saga started as sci-fi, I tend to think they continued with sci-fi but buried the explanations in subtle clues, but I think it also works as fantasy if you are willing to forget that the first was hard sci-fi...

With a preference for viewing the trilogy as sci-fi there are a few possible ways to extrapolate the sci-fi elements and explain what we saw in the "real world". Neo having special hardware, specialized code as part of him being the One, part man-part machine or matrix-in-a-matrix being the most often discussed.

Watching the movies I don't see much in the way of hints to support the other sci-fi theories, but I see a number of hints that lead to the matrix-in-a-matrix conclusion, for example:

In the real world he receives the spoon, a clue that they're still is no spoon
The gold code of Seraph matching the gold code of the real world
The continuation of unnatural lighting (blue) in the real world

There's also the logic which Rehevkor touched on, and which was fleshed out in more detail in previous posts. (Check threads from the time of Reloaded's release.)

I'm willing to concede there is nothing conclusive to support any theory (matrix-in-a-matrix, fantasy miracles, Neo being part-machine,) but there is also nothing conclusive to refute the major theories that have bubbled to the top. It seems you're free to view the trilogy as fantasy or as sci-fi and, at this time, anyone that argues one of these theories is bunk or impossible to justify is presenting an unsupportable position.

al_bundy

11-10-03, 01:56 PM

Last night I was at the in-laws with the wife and I hooked up my camcorder to their 15 year old TV. We watched the first hour of our wedding and some honeymoon footage I shot. Mysteriously the video had a greenish tint on their TV.

El-Kabong

11-10-03, 02:02 PM

Against my better judgement, I saw Matrix: Rehashed late sunday night. Once again the Beast of Crappy Writing strikes down what little creativeness that The Matrix had.

As I understand it, the entire premise of the trilogy is to not only save Zion but also free all the humans still plugged into the Matrix. So why would Neo make peace with the Big Swirling Machine Head (AKA Sinistar), when there are 6 billion humans still be enslaved by the machines? What kind of peace is there going to be when the parasite machines still need the human batteries to survive?

Oh, don’t think about that - here, look at this beautiful sunrise instead.

Peace? Please - that's like snuggling up to Skynet or the Daleks.

(This is of course overlooking the notion that the concept of humans as a power source is completely improbable in the first place. It would take more energy and resources to keep a human alive than the energy gained that the enslaved human would produce in the first place. But that's the concept we're handed, stupid though it may be - so we have to take it and run.)

But hey - at least the Bondage/Fetish Club Scene didn’t drag on for ten minutes like the Rave Scene! That's a plus.

What possible motivation could Colonel Sanders/The Big Swirling Head/Sinistar have to NOT wipe out Zion now that Neo is gone? The humans have no defense, so there's nothing stopping him.

Well, the Humans have EMP bombs. I guess that would stop the machines. Oh - wait a second, apparently they only equip their SHIPS with these bombs, leaving Zion with only the lesser defenses. What kind of commander doesn’t stockpile their best weapon for just such an emergency. Line the passages leading all the way back to the Human's last refuge and blow them up as the machines approached. But then again, I'm no military commander, so what do I know.

Of course the machines weren't at the peak of their game. Once they drilled into Zion, why didn’t they just lower a Nuke down and blow the bajeebers out of the landing bay. Hell, send along a thousand machines as distraction to throw the meatbags inside off the scent that anything was wrong. Much easier and faster than sending in thousands and thousands and thousands of troops.

Oh - why the hell wasnt the Human's technology shielded against EMB bursts? Clearly they have the technology, since the ships arent disabled when THEY use them. So why not shield the power loaders too?

Oh - wait, the humans dont use EMP bombs in Zion, so there's no need to use that shielding there.

And if I'm ever impaled through the heart and lungs by three chunks of rebar, that I get five minutes to profess my true love, too. Jesus, Trinity - shut the hell up and die already!

I know at the end of the movie the Oracle asks "So what about the others, those who want out?" But hardly any of the Meatbags knew they were part of the Matrix, why would they "want out"?

What the hell was the deal behind the train man. The programs (in the matrix) were going . . . to The Real World? Huh?

And the movie was way too derivative of other films in places. What was up with the armored defense units? Did Wayland-Yutani have a sale on Power loaders or something? And the whole fly through the tight corridor to the heart of the Death Star - Lando should sue for slander or something. And the whole Dragonball-Z battle at the end - please.

The whole movie is laden with pseudo-philosophical gobbledygook. Colonel Sanders speaks of balancing the equations while the Oracle unbalances them. Smith goes on about nihilism while Neo counters with choice and free will. Now granted the movie is not quite as bad as Matrix 2, but now is not the time for exposition. Now is the time for ANSWERS!

And the Wachowskis brothers (or is that sisters) never get around to answering anything, do they. Why did Smith become so powerful? How does Neo manipulate machines outside the Matrix? How did Neo get into the Matrix without being jacked in? Why did the Oracle’s appearance change (Well, aside from the fact that original actress died during shooting)? What's up with that Sight beyond Sight thing when Neo was blinded? Did someone slip him the Sword of Omens or something? Its not a good sign when you spend 4 hours out of 6 and still have a shit-load of questions at the end.

The highpoint of the film is of course the Battle for Zion - but it goes on WAY too long. By the end, you feel bludgeoned and numb. And what the hell - why sideline The Chosen One for half an hour? You know - the Savior? The whole point of the movie? Lucas may have gotten some things wrong with the last two Star Wars films, but you have to admit that the man knows how to edit an end climax battle scene. The Zion Battle goes on for just too damn long, when any editor worth his salt would have been jumping back and forth between all the plot lines that were going on at the time.

All in all, it was a big waste of time. I want the four hours of my life back!

Patman

11-10-03, 02:10 PM

Not everyone will want to leave the Matrix.

Groucho

11-10-03, 02:13 PM

Originally posted by El-Kabong
What the hell was the deal behind the train man. The programs (in the matrix) were going . . . to The Real World? Huh?No, the train shuttled programs from the Machine World to the Matrix.

Great review, BTW. Funny stuff. :thumbsup:

El-Kabong

11-10-03, 02:16 PM

Originally posted by Groucho
No, the train shuttled programs from the Machine World to the Matrix.

Oh - I must have missed that since I notice that my eyes just tend to glaze over when the movie starts sermonizing at me yet again.

Patman

11-10-03, 02:23 PM

One of my main gripe from people who didn't like the film: when it becomes apparent they didn't comprehend or pay attention to what appears on the screen.

Philip Reuben

11-10-03, 02:24 PM

Originally posted by El-Kabong
As I understand it, the entire premise of the trilogy is to not only save Zion but also free all the humans still plugged into the Matrix.

You understand wrongly. It's really as simple as that - just because you viewed that as the ideal ultimate goal doesn't mean it was. And it wasn't.

So why would Neo make peace with the Big Swirling Machine Head (AKA Sinistar), when there are 6 billion humans still be enslaved by the machines? What kind of peace is there going to be when the parasite machines still need the human batteries to survive?

The vast majority of humans would rather stay in the Matrix. So why shouldn't the machines use these people for energy? What harm is it? As long as the people of Zion are allowed to take people out of the Matrix who want to come out of the Matrix (if given the choice - on both a subconscious level, and a literal level if they are asked to choose a pill), what does it matter if everyone else stays in? This way everybody wins!

If all the humans were set free, what kind of peace would that be? There wouldn't be enough space or resources to support them all, and most of them would be bitter, angry and/or depressive.

crow121

11-10-03, 02:35 PM

the movie was supposed to make you question the ending. that's how they wanted it so people would talk about it. obviously, it has worked.

El-Kabong

11-10-03, 02:39 PM

Originally posted by Philip Reuben
You understand wrongly. It's really as simple as that - just because you viewed that as the ideal ultimate goal doesn't mean it was. And it wasn't.

Yeah it is - Morphious even says as much early on (the first movie, I believe).

But for the sake of argument, lets assume I'm wrong. What's the point of the war then?

The vast majority of humans would rather stay in the Matrix.

The vast majority of humans dont even KNOW they're in the Matrix, so the choice (one of the major themes of the movie, as I seem to recall) isnt even a option for them.

So why shouldn't the machines use these people for energy? What harm is it? As long as the people of Zion are allowed to take people out of the Matrix who want to come out of the Matrix (if given the choice - on both a subconscious level, and a literal level if they are asked to choose a pill), what does it matter if everyone else stays in? This way everybody wins!

Well, I guess if you consider 3/4th of the human race still enslaved and used as simple tools by their oppressors winning, then yeah - I guess the humans did win, didnt they.

If all the humans were set free, what kind of peace would that be? There wouldn't be enough space or resources to support them all, and most of them would be bitter, angry and/or depressive.

You're assuming that Morph wakes up Monday morning, says "Time for you wake up call!" and instantly pulls the plug on 6 billion people. Of course that isn't going to work - it's going to take lots and lots and lots time to get everyone out from under their evil overlords.

But as the movie stands now, it's back to business as usual with nothing changed. Humans going about their daily lives living a lie and unknowingly providing power to the parasitic machines. THIS is the "revolution" talked about in the subtitle?

RocShemp

11-10-03, 02:40 PM

Originally posted by El-Kabong
Oh - why the hell wasnt the Human's technology shielded against EMB bursts? Clearly they have the technology, since the ships arent disabled when THEY use them. So why not shield the power loaders too?

The ships were never shielded. They'd get knocked outby EMPs too. That's how Bane sabotaged the counter-attack (by setting off an EMP ahead of schedule). That's also why, in the first film, they had to wait until after Neo got out of the Matrix in order to use the EMP against the Sentinels.

RocShemp

11-10-03, 02:49 PM

Originally posted by El-Kabong
Yeah it is - Morphious even says as much early on (the first movie, I believe).

But for the sake of argument, lets assume I'm wrong. What's the point of the war then?

You're right, that was the point of the war. But that was not the purpose of the one. Morpheus assumed that ending the war meant destroying the Matrix. In reality, ending the war meant the truce Neo achieved through his new covenant where exiled programs and humans could co-exist in the Matrix.

Originally posted by El-Kabong
The vast majority of humans dont even KNOW they're in the Matrix, so the choice (one of the major themes of the movie, as I seem to recall) isnt even a option for them.

It's implied that they'll be made aware of the truth. That's why the Architect says that all that WANT to be freed will be freed. Of course you can assume that many will make a deal such as Cypher did with Smith and choose to have their memories erased and allowed back into the Matrix.

Originally posted by El-Kabong
Well, I guess if you consider 3/4th of the human race still enslaved and used as simple tools by their oppressors winning, then yeah - I guess the humans did win, didnt they.

Again, it was a truce not an actual victory for either side.

Originally posted by El-Kabong
You're assuming that Morph wakes up Monday morning, says "Time for you wake up call!" and instantly pulls the plug on 6 billion people. Of course that isn't going to work - it's going to take lots and lots and lots time to get everyone out from under their evil overlords.

Like you said, they wont be freed overnight. But they will be made aware of the truth in due time and given the choice between a dream world and the real world.

Originally posted by El-Kabong
But as the movie stands now, it's back to business as usual with nothing changed. Humans going about their daily lives living a lie and unknowingly providing power to the parasitic machines. THIS is the "revolution" talked about in the subtitle?

No, the revolution is that peace is now achieved, humans are free from the threat of death from the machines and exiles will no longer be deleted.

bralph

11-10-03, 03:04 PM

I saw Revolutions last night with my brother, and we were both incredibly disappointed. It was like I wasn't watching a Matrix movie at all. Morpheus goes from training The One to Mrs. Will Smith's co-pilot? Trinity does basically nothing? Long, elaborate space/planet battles and chases? What the hell????

Now I understand that there is a good bit more to the Matrix than wire-fu and chases, but I believe they could have still told the story they wanted to tell without getting away from what drew audiences to the movie in the first place.

They setup the huge overdrawn battle of Zion, when everyone knows that none of it mattered. Was I really supposed to care what happened to the kid, the wife or the general? I didn't... Niobe? Link? nope. nope. The main characters fron the first two movies were Neo, Trinity and Morpheus. Trinity and Morpheus were basically bit players, and even Neo disappeared for long stretches of time.

drunkrob

11-10-03, 03:16 PM

It isn't so hard to believe Neo had special abilities in the real world. He started out with the machines and was basically delivered to Morpheus by the machines.

PixyJunket

11-10-03, 03:24 PM

El-Kabong, wow.. you managed a nice number of pop culture refrences in your little mini-review. :up:

El-Kabong

11-10-03, 03:24 PM

Here's a bit of humor to brighten your thread. THIS (http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/film/resolutions.html) is how the Matrix should have ended:

Though every internet debate was a potential landmine for Matrix fans, at least one theory had almost total online support: the film would end with Neo handing Agent Smith his lunch. Neo would then take over the Matrix and hand that pretentious Architect his lunch by forcing the defeated Colonel Sanders impersonator to fellate him, maybe even rubbing salt in his wounds with some "Oh, look - now your mouth's full, vis-à-vis my dick!" trash talk.

Humans could then reclaim the surface of their scorched planet and free their empodded brethren. The third act would portray six billion naked humans gleefully slaughtering the machines by the tens of millions, humanity racing against the clock to sneak in some last-minute genocide before mass starvation and sterilization from nuclear fallout rendered their own species extinct.

Savvy Matrix fans took one look at all that business in Reloaded where the film-makers tried to humanize the machines, and instinctively knew it was all only to make their inevitable destruction and torture that much more satisfying for us, the viewers. Once and for all, we knew, humankind would have its revenge on the machines' for having the gall to trick us into blotting out our own sky and making our planet unhabitable.

Or maybe not. To the surprise of many fans already sketching fairly graphic notebook drawings of slaughtered machines with smoke pouring out of their eye cavities, Revolutions instead gave us man and machine, living in some kind of weird state of... not-war. (Sadly, no word has been invented for this yet).

This confused and outraged many Matrix fans, who'd already spent hours on the web explaining that man and computers could never really live in such a state of harmony and mutual benefit. Many of the typos in their posts were, in fact, a result of their other hand being occupied with the .45 automatic they were pointing threateningly at their monitor as they typed.

WHAT MIGHT HAVE BEEN:

SIX BILLION REFUGEES, smeared in PINK GOO, stagger across a barren, lightning-scorched desert in TERROR, their limbs failing to respond.

REFUGEE #345,044,012
Where- where the hell are we?

NEO
Hiya, fellahs!

REFUGEE #5,699,333,711
Hey, it's that weird flying goth guy who's been in all the papers.

NEO
That's right! It turns out your world was just a massive computer simulation. But now you're free! You're welcome.

REFUGEE #345,044,012
Does the wind always howl like this? When will it be daylight?

NEO
Um. Well, never. And yeah, the wind always howls like that. I'd take you to Zion to warm up, but we kind of destroyed it fighting the machines. Heh.

Neo props a piece of cardboard up on a STICK.

NEO
But look! It's like a house!

A long pause.

REFUGEE #5,699,333,711
Get him!

REFUGEE #345,044,012
Nail him to that cross!

NEO
Agh! You're tearing my tattered rag clothes! I loved that shirt! No!
Wait, stop! AGGGHHHHH!

THE END

Oh yes. A much better ending!

texaspete

11-10-03, 03:31 PM

Originally posted by Patman
Not everyone will want to leave the Matrix.

If I was Bill Gates with my mega billions of $$$ and someone yanked me out, I'd be pi$$ed!!!

Daytrip

11-10-03, 03:47 PM

Originally posted by El-Kabong
And the Wachowskis brothers (or is that sisters) never get around to answering anything, do they. Why did Smith become so powerful? How does Neo manipulate machines outside the Matrix? How did Neo get into the Matrix without being jacked in? Why did the Oracle’s appearance change (Well, aside from the fact that original actress died during shooting)? What's up with that Sight beyond Sight thing when Neo was blinded? Did someone slip him the Sword of Omens or something? Its not a good sign when you spend 4 hours out of 6 and still have a shit-load of questions at the end.

did you even watch the movie? every one of those questions where answered, mostly by the oracle

PixyJunket

11-10-03, 03:51 PM

Originally posted by Daytrip
did you even watch the movie? every one of those questions where answered, mostly by the oracle "Just Because" is not what I'd call an acceptable answer though.

Philip Reuben

11-10-03, 03:55 PM

Originally posted by El-Kabong
Yeah it is - Morphious even says as much early on (the first movie, I believe).

And he turns out to be wrong.

But for the sake of argument, lets assume I'm wrong. What's the point of the war then?

A simple question with a complicated answer.

The machines created the Matrix in order to survive the humans' attempted "genocide" of them. Initially it appeared that the machines had won the war absolutely, since the humans were all unaware of the Matrix and had no way to fight back. However, the machines eventually figured out that letting some people escape was necessary for the system to run properly. This therefore created what is essentially an illusion of a war. The humans think they have a chance of winning - destroying the Matrix, etc - when really they don't and never did.

So the way most of the humans in Zion perceive the war is the way you see it. Many of the freed humans probably still have this perception by the end of Revolutions... we're not told. However, the machines figured out that they can remove the risk of humans overthrowing the machines by periodically killing them all and getting the One to start up a new Zion. Combine this with the fact that most people would rather stay in the Matrix, and even if Neo is the only one who realises it, peace is the only plausible solution. What the war is "about" for humans was (a) a fantasy that they could destroy the machines or (b) a reality where the two sides could make peace.

For the machines, the war is simply about survival. Humans tried to destroy them all by blocking out their source of energy (the sun), so the machines found a new source of energy - humans. (As usual, let's ignore how ridiculous that is.) Sure, the machines' survival plan involves killing lots of people, but they're willing to adapt their plan if they can get it to work without killing lots of people. This means the humans have to agree to be peaceful. So the machines are happy to make peace as long as the humans are also happy to make peace.

I feel like I'm straying from the point a bit in trying to say what I mean... If you think I've strayed too far from what you were actually asking, I'll try and explain again :S

The vast majority of humans dont even KNOW they're in the Matrix, so the choice (one of the major themes of the movie, as I seem to recall) isnt even a option for them.

My point was that if they were given the choice, most people would rather stay in the Matrix. Go and watch the Architect's speech from Reloaded again, he makes this pretty clear in his convoluted sort of way. It's a subconscious thing. I think it's kind of connected to your personality type.

Besides, people are given the choice when someone approaches them to take them out of the Matrix. Red pill, blue pill...

Well, I guess if you consider 3/4th of the human race still enslaved and used as simple tools by their oppressors winning, then yeah - I guess the humans did win, didnt they.

But what is the definition of being "oppressed"?

Say you are given two choices:
a) A world just like ours, where you live a relatively comfortable life, which furthermore is the world and life that you are used to.
a) A world where the surface is uninhabitable, so everyone lives underground. Living facilities are rudimentary at best - you live in a city that is basically a huge multi-story slum. There is no sunlight.

Many people would view someone who lets you keep the former as a benefactor rather than an oppressor.

You seem to be saying, "But it's the principle of the thing!" without trying to give any justification beyond repeating yourself. The Real World is not a nice place, and time can't go back on itself to when (relatively speaking) it was. What, specifically, is so bad about letting people stay in the Matrix if, given the choice, they'd prefer it there? What, specifically, is so bad about the machines using humans for energy?

Yes, this goes against the horror you're meant to feel at it all in the first film. But the ending of Reloaded made you reexamine major concepts from the first film as well...

You're assuming that Morph wakes up Monday morning, says "Time for you wake up call!" and instantly pulls the plug on 6 billion people. Of course that isn't going to work - it's going to take lots and lots and lots time to get everyone out from under their evil overlords.

Fair enough. But it's still lots and lots of angry people.

But as the movie stands now, it's back to business as usual with nothing changed.

The change is huge! The machines will allow humans to set people free. This definitely means that Zion is no longer going to be periodically destroyed (you're telling me that isn't a huge change?), and very probably means that the Agents will be deleted. The machines might even help people to leave the Matrix.

What hasn't changed is the human nature that wants to win the war - destroy the machines - just like it did before the Matrix existed, when the machines wanted peaceful relations with the humans and the humans just wanted to destroy them. This will be the humans' downfall. Like the Architect says, the machines won't go back on their word, but there's every chance that the humans will. Sadly, the cycle will eventually begin again.

Daytrip

11-10-03, 04:29 PM

Originally posted by PixyJunket
"Just Because" is not what I'd call an acceptable answer though.

while i agree they didn't exactly map anything out in great detail they did provide answers to those questions. they where indeed sci/fi answers but it's a sci/fi film what do you expect? all where viable decent answers

modfather

11-10-03, 04:42 PM

It seems to me that most people who think 2 & 3 were good movies are defending it, and not saying what is *good* about them. To me, the first (and *only*) Matrix movie, simlar to the original SW series, stood on it's own. In actuality, the thing that makes episode 4, 5, and 6 of SW is they stand on their own merit. You could watch any one of those movies and enjoy them, without any prior knowledge of what's going on.

Matrix 2 and 3 seem to be an overbearing attempt at injecting way too much circular thought processes and religious points. I don't care how the spaceships or Neo flies, I don't care why Neo can bring Trinity back to life in 2, but not others. What really bothers me is the mindless blathering - the pretentious "only smart people should *get* this movie" attitude.

Matrix 2 and 3 were failures in every way, other than at the box office. The thing I personally loved about the first movie was the homage to the spaghetti westerns, the great action scenes, *the gunfights*, the intelligent (but not too intelligent for dolts like anyone who dislikes 2 & 3) dialogue. #1 is a great action movie that makes me grab onto my seat, but 2 and 3 are boring and even the action is boring. There is no threat to the protagonist, he is soooo robot-like in these movies... It's just maddening.

C'mon, those of you who say you "like it". Don't worry, the W shemale brothers won't send sentinels after you if you just admit that they stunk.

I've been on this board since the beginning (actually had another name I used before even this one) and I can tell you that I don't post much at all anymore, but the *BADNESS* of these two movies compelled me.

And for those of you who still liked the movie because you're smart enough to "get" all of the lame plot points - How can I sign up to be smart to? (note, the word "to" should be "too", but those of us who don't *get* the 2nd and 3rd movies need to sound ignorant once-in-a-while. :)

Philip Reuben

11-10-03, 04:52 PM

Originally posted by modfather
It seems to me that most people who think 2 & 3 were good movies are defending it, and not saying what is *good* about them.

1. Exciting action scenes with excellent special effects
2. Well-developed characters that I found myself caring a great deal about
3. A well-conceived continuation and ending to a gripping story
4. A source of a lot of interesting debate

Okay?

Matrix 2 and 3 were failures in every way, other than at the box office. The thing I personally loved about the first movie was the homage to the spaghetti westerns, the great action scenes, *the gunfights*, the intelligent (but not too intelligent for dolts like anyone who dislikes 2 & 3) dialogue. #1 is a great action movie that makes me grab onto my seat, but 2 and 3 are boring and even the action is boring. There is no threat to the protagonist, he is soooo robot-like in these movies... It's just maddening.

And this is, of course, an opinion that people are entitled to not share. I thought Reloaded and Revolutions were huge successes in every way. I didn't enjoy them as much as the original, but I wouldn't expect them to. They were still excellent, excellent movies.

C'mon, those of you who say you "like it". Don't worry, the W shemale brothers won't send sentinels after you if you just admit that they stunk.

Why would I do that when I enjoyed them so much?

And for those of you who still liked the movie because you're smart enough to "get" all of the lame plot points - How can I sign up to be smart to?

Reading this page would be a start. (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html)

ScandalUMD

11-10-03, 07:12 PM

Originally posted by jim_cook87
Which is precisely why on a regular basis the machines would destroy Zion. When the mathematical probability of someone recognizing Zion as just another construct reached some pre-determined level you reset Zion to avoid just such a discovery.

If Zion is another Matrix, then it stands to reason that people would reject Zion just as frequently. The machines have to let a few people out into the real world because they reject the simulation. If people will reject any simulation, then the machines inevitably have to let some people exist free of the Matrix.

But they can keep these free humans from posing any threat by regularly exterminating them to keep their numbers managable.

Sci-fi and fantasy are often erroneously lumped to together but true sci-fi and true fantasy are distinctly separate types of fiction. The first Matrix was pure sci-fi. It started with the world we know, threw in some scientifically plausible change (AI and virtual realities) and explored what could transpire with those scientific advancements. It all fit together logically, the science was plausible, if something was not explained you could rely on what you knew to be true in our reality as it was our reality that was extrapolated to create the world of the Matrix. Nothing forbids a work of sci-fi from being philosophically or religiously thematic or allegorical, in fact many of the greatest works of sci-fi revolve around religious, philosophical or sociological ideas and ramifications.

Bull. There's nothing plausible or scientific about an entirely constructed virtual reality that people are plugged into via holes in the backs of their heads. For the purposes of the story, the idea of the Matrix being a computer controlled virtual reality semantic and aesthetic. It could just as easily be a magical enchantment.

In fact, the ramifications of artificial realities don't even seem to concern the Wachowskis that much; they traded those ideas in after the first movie for the themes of choice and fate that are central to Reloaded and Revolutions. The point of the Matrix is, essentially, that they can have absurd, anti-gravity fight sequences there.

The people who made these movies seem to care a lot about cool clothes and kung fu and Japanese cartoons and existential philosophical riffs.

They seem to care very little about engineering and programming. Which is good, because the Matrix is much too cool to care about science. I don't know why people are so annoyed that there's not a clear and consistent set of rules that can be applied to a movie about breaking rules.

I can't understand why people zero in on one implausibility in a movie that's extravagantly implausible.

With Reloaded and Revolutions the Wachowski's did one of two things, they either continued the Trilogy as a work of pure sci-fi, or they chose to turn the story into a work of fantasy. If it is sci-fi, then the answer "because he is the One" and blind acceptance of miraculous powers in the "Real World" are not acceptable, but if it is intended to be fantasy, that is sufficient. If it is intended to be sci-fi, then matrix-in-a-matrix sufficiently answers all the questions, and enough evidence exists to support the theory, but unfortunately this is not stated, but can only be reached through supposition...

The question is did the Wachowski brothers decide to scrap the pure sci-fi basis of the Matrix in writing Reloaded and Revolutions and turn Matrix into Fantasy. Or did they maintain a work of sci-fi, but make the clues very obscure and subtle and thus open for debate?

Frankly, I think sci-fi is an aesthetic. "Alien" takes place on a space-ship, but it's basically a haunted house flick. Look at "Star Wars." It's supposedly the definitive sci-fi, but it's mostly about samurai and cowboys.

The main difference between sci-fi and fantasy is that sci-fi enthusiasts are a little more anal about rules and plausibility.

As for the unanswered questions, I expect the Wachowskis left unresolved matters in case they want to revisit these issues in more movies, or more video games, or another "Animatrix" disc. I'm sure there's a substantial market at this point for a cartoon history of the Merovingian.

island007

11-10-03, 07:48 PM

Originally posted by modfather
Matrix 2 and 3 were failures in every way, other than at the box office.

I think this is what bothers the nay-sayers the most. How can these movies that they consider crap make more cash then what they consider to be a good movie. I'm sure the critics like Mystic River more the Matrix-Revolutions; however, the Public is going the other way. :D

Goat3001

11-10-03, 07:58 PM

Its probably just me but I absolutly LOVED Revolutions. I thought it was the perfect end to a great (but not the best) trilogies. Maybe all the many questions I had during Reloaded weren't answered but the important ones were and IMO thats what matters.

RocShemp

11-10-03, 10:03 PM

Originally posted by Goat3001
Its probably just me but I absolutly LOVED Revolutions. I thought it was the perfect end to a great (but not the best) trilogies. Maybe all the many questions I had during Reloaded weren't answered but the important ones were and IMO thats what matters.

:thumbsup:

Michael Corvin

11-10-03, 11:06 PM

Originally posted by beefjerky
Look, I don't think the Wachowski brothers pumped the Matrix movies full of religious symbolism and ideas to get people to bitch about needing concrete scientific evidence for how Neo can control machines. Everyone's so pissed off because they wanted every single answer down to how each and every piece of machinery worked spoon fed to them.

Amen bother. I hate being spoonfed every little detail. If they did that they would bring the intrigue and excitement of the first movie to the lowest common denominator. Pandering to the public that made it so big. That would have the worst possible outcome for Revolutions. And people are clamoring for a commentary for these movies. Not me, I don't want everything explained to me.

I thought the ending was excellent. I don't think it could have ended another way... reasonably. If the humans rise and obliterate the machines you are back to square one on why the war began in the first place. Lame. And I said it 6 months ago I will say it again, Matrix in a Matrix is LAME! Let it die. It is probably just the preachers that thought they had it all figured out that refuse to be wrong. Let it die already.

SeanValen

11-11-03, 12:00 AM

Jackskeleton

11-11-03, 12:45 AM

only reason to watch..

http://upload.pzind.com/upload_files/bscap0002.jpg
http://upload.pzind.com/upload_files/bscap0005.jpg
http://upload.pzind.com/upload_files/bscap0011.jpg

Kaffe_02

11-11-03, 12:56 AM

Overall I really enjoyed this trilogy. The end was very open and it works out that way for me. I would have like a few of the questions like why the machines (Smith) wanted the codes to Zion when they were just going to drill down and kill them any way.

outcastja

11-11-03, 01:07 AM

Originally posted by Jackskeleton
only reason to watch..

Actually, two big reasons.

sabre

11-11-03, 07:57 AM

I enjoyed the battle to save to zion but neo was not given enough to do and the ending disappointing.. stranded in the the subway was stupid and pointless. the battle with smith was disappointing. I wanted a real conclusion human retaking the earth the machine down to its knees. the whole smith subplot took away from the historic battle with the machines. there was to much smith and not enough of a battle to free the humans. I enjoyed matrix reloaded because its plot filled us more in on the matrix while having some goo action scenes. though the special effects were not great, smith fight.

matrix revolutions the plot is uninteresting the only good thing is the fight to save zion. but why didn't they have hundreds of emps. if ships only have them then neo has the powere in the supposed real world to destroy sentinels and other machines that is ridiculous and dumb the only true possible explanation is the matrix in the matrix explanation. otherwise don't go there because it doesn't make sense. neo needed a better plot and the movie should have been about defeating the machines not the smithss and the ending was a joke terrible i have no idea what became of neo or why all the smiths died.

chess

11-11-03, 08:41 AM

Originally posted by modfather
It seems to me that most people who think 2 & 3 were good movies are defending it, and not saying what is *good* about them. To me, the first (and *only*) Matrix movie, simlar to the original SW series, stood on it's own. In actuality, the thing that makes episode 4, 5, and 6 of SW is they stand on their own merit. You could watch any one of those movies and enjoy them, without any prior knowledge of what's going on.

Matrix 2 and 3 seem to be an overbearing attempt at injecting way too much circular thought processes and religious points. I don't care how the spaceships or Neo flies, I don't care why Neo can bring Trinity back to life in 2, but not others. What really bothers me is the mindless blathering - the pretentious "only smart people should *get* this movie" attitude.

Matrix 2 and 3 were failures in every way, other than at the box office. The thing I personally loved about the first movie was the homage to the spaghetti westerns, the great action scenes, *the gunfights*, the intelligent (but not too intelligent for dolts like anyone who dislikes 2 & 3) dialogue. #1 is a great action movie that makes me grab onto my seat, but 2 and 3 are boring and even the action is boring. There is no threat to the protagonist, he is soooo robot-like in these movies... It's just maddening.

C'mon, those of you who say you "like it". Don't worry, the W shemale brothers won't send sentinels after you if you just admit that they stunk.

I've been on this board since the beginning (actually had another name I used before even this one) and I can tell you that I don't post much at all anymore, but the *BADNESS* of these two movies compelled me.

And for those of you who still liked the movie because you're smart enough to "get" all of the lame plot points - How can I sign up to be smart to? (note, the word "to" should be "too", but those of us who don't *get* the 2nd and 3rd movies need to sound ignorant once-in-a-while. :)

just reading through, but had to pause to say:

WORST
POST
EVER

by all means, express an opinion, but there's no need to be so hostile. it's just a movie after all. i don't think people who don't get reloaded and revolutions are stupid by any means...i just don't think they're willing to invest that kind of time into a movie they didn't enjoy in the first place.

hence the division...some people see many layers that are worthy of discussion, and others just see the action movie on the surface that was vague at best and incomprehensible at worst. at very least, the pacing was mixed.

but to many people, myself included, these movies most decidedly did not "stink". i believe they'll be fondly remembered over time and will compare favorably with the alien, terminator, and star wars series.

kcbrett5

11-11-03, 08:50 AM

Originally posted by Michael Corvin
Amen bother. I hate being spoonfed every little detail. If they did that they would bring the intrigue and excitement of the first movie to the lowest common denominator. Pandering to the public that made it so big. That would have the worst possible outcome for Revolutions. And people are clamoring for a commentary for these movies. Not me, I don't want everything explained to me.

I thought the ending was excellent. I don't think it could have ended another way... reasonably. If the humans rise and obliterate the machines you are back to square one on why the war began in the first place. Lame. And I said it 6 months ago I will say it again, Matrix in a Matrix is LAME! Let it die. It is probably just the preachers that thought they had it all figured out that refuse to be wrong. Let it die already.

I agree that the ending was amazing. I saw it with my wife and we both walked away with different ideas about how it ended and what it meant. In the end, it is what you want it to be, doesn't really matter what anyone else thinks. I personally love when you actually have to think about a movie and everything isnt all wrapped up in a neat little bundle for you.

And here's a newsflash. Life isn't perfect, so why do so many people demand that movies end happily ever after. Life never does. It makes it more real.

chess

11-11-03, 08:58 AM

Originally posted by sabre
I enjoyed the battle to save to zion but neo was not given enough to do and the ending disappointing.. stranded in the the subway was stupid and pointless. the battle with smith was disappointing. I wanted a real conclusion human retaking the earth the machine down to its knees. the whole smith subplot took away from the historic battle with the machines. there was to much smith and not enough of a battle to free the humans. I enjoyed matrix reloaded because its plot filled us more in on the matrix while having some goo action scenes. though the special effects were not great, smith fight.

matrix revolutions the plot is uninteresting the only good thing is the fight to save zion. but why didn't they have hundreds of emps. if ships only have them then neo has the powere in the supposed real world to destroy sentinels and other machines that is ridiculous and dumb the only true possible explanation is the matrix in the matrix explanation. otherwise don't go there because it doesn't make sense. neo needed a better plot and the movie should have been about defeating the machines not the smithss and the ending was a joke terrible i have no idea what became of neo or why all the smiths died.

1. you must have missed the whole point about the balance between man and machine. see the discussion with the counselman for reference, or better yet, rent the animatrix.

2. neo was a machine, at least in part. that's why he carried the matrix code, and there are numerous hints at it, including expressly saying it once in a different context. "he's a machine"

3. smith was a threat to both worlds and was a perfectly reasonable device for making peace. at the very least, it made sense in the christ/antichrist scheme of things.

you can like it or not, i'm just trying to help. please don't take it as an argument one way or the other.

Groucho

11-11-03, 09:05 AM

Originally posted by Michael Corvin
I hate being spoonfed every little detail. If they did that they would bring the intrigue and excitement of the first movie to the lowest common denominator. Pandering to the public that made it so big. That would have the worst possible outcome for Revolutions. And people are clamoring for a commentary for these movies. Not me, I don't want everything explained to me.Me too. That was one of my big problems with Reloaded that thankfully didn't carry on into the third film. It explained. And explained. And explained some more.

El-Kabong

11-11-03, 01:11 PM

Originally posted by Michael Corvin
Amen bother. I hate being spoonfed every little detail. If they did that they would bring the intrigue and excitement of the first movie to the lowest common denominator. Pandering to the public that made it so big. That would have the worst possible outcome for Revolutions. And people are clamoring for a commentary for these movies. Not me, I don't want everything explained to me.

You know, I don't care why the technology works. The human's battleships fly because of the little sparking blue thingie underneath them. Why do the tentacle monsters fly? Because they have a blue sparking thingie too, only it's inside where you cant see it. I don't need Star Trek Technobabble (TM) to explain it away.

However, a major plot point like why Neo can suddenly manipulate the real world like he can inside the Matrix needs a little bit more detail than. . . .

Neo: "What the hell is going on? Why can I stop machines with my mind?"

Oracle: "You are connected to the Source, Neo."

Neo nods knowingly, the Oracle smokes some more and then they change the subject.

Oh, yeah right - Neo is connected to the source! Duh! Of course! How could I not pick up on that. Gee, thanks guys - that really cleared things up for me.

Originally posted by kcbrett5
And here's a newsflash. Life isn't perfect, so why do so many people demand that movies end happily ever after. Life never does. It makes it more real.

No - if they were going with the Life Isn't Perfect ending, then why didn't they show some balls and have the Humans *LOSE*. Neo gets snuffed and the machines sweeps Zion clean of these rebellious little Meatbags.

No, the W Brother and Shemale were only capable of delivering a BAD ending. . . .

Jolard

11-11-03, 01:15 PM

First off, let me say that I really enjoyed the trilogy. Revolutions was fun, had some great action sequences (I liked the battle for Zion, and the final battle between Neo and Smith).

I also enjoyed the way they portrayed the battles in real life as far more gritty and dangerous. While the battles in the Matrix are stylized and poetic, the battles in real life are just down and dirty (battle for Zion, Bane/Smith and Neo battle)

However, I have to say I was disappointed in the internal logic of the films. I was also disappointed that more questions weren't answered, but that is ok. I am not one who has to have everything answered. However I would have liked answers to my internal logic problems.

I am one of those who gets really annoyed when filmakers aren't consistent in their internal logic. Think back to when you were a Matrix virgin. You were watching the first one, and all these people were doing things that appeared magical. However you quickly learned throughout the film that the reason they could do these things was because they were actually in a simulation, and if you "freed your mind" then you could take control. That was what the entire training program with morpheus (the jumps, the fighting) was all about, it was to free Neo's mind from the constraints of the Matrix. Once he truly internalized that it was only a simulation, then he could do pretty much anything he wanted. It was about faith and belief, and the power that came from that.

Then we had Matrix 2, and the film was consistent all the way to the very end when Neo stopped the Sentinels in the real world. Why could he do that? How? According to the logic of the first film, it would have to be that Neo realized the truth of the real world. He didn't have magical powers in the first movie because he was some mystically born holy man, he had the powers because he was able to free his mind totally from the constraints of the matrix. So why was he able to use magical powers in the real world?

This was the question I was looking for answers to. I looked forward to finding out why it was that Neo was able to do that. I believed that it probably had something to do with a Matrix within a Matrix, as that had the most internal consistency, the idea that what we know is reality is really just layer upon layer of constructs. However I was willing to take just about any other plausable explanation, and I was looking forward to the answers.

Instead I got a throwaway line from the Oracle just saying that he can do thsoe things in the real world because he is the one. Thats it. No real explanation of how that works. To me this is a major break in the internal logic of the film, because it allows Neo to have superpowers in the real world. In the Matrix he had them because he knew the reality of the world, and because he could hack the system. In the real world he had superpowers.

I never bought this whole thing, and I am very disappointed that the movies weren't more consistent in their logic. You can have as implausible a scenario as you want, as long as you follow your own rules. The Wachowskis failed to do that in this respect.

So the movies are cheapened for me. What could have been a tour de force, is now just a fun action popcorn flick. As I said, I enjoyed it, and I am sure I will buy the DVD and watch it again. I don't care that the end resolution wasn't exactly what I expected, I don't care that there wasn't more Merovingian and Persopheni, I don't care that it ended up being just about destroying Smith. I do care that the filmakers changed the rules between the first half of the trilogy and the last half, going froma plausible reason for what appeared to be superpowers, to simply having superpowers. The fact that neo was simply a superman, pretty much voided most of what we learned in the first flick. For that I don't thank the Wachowskis.

sundog

11-11-03, 01:58 PM

I liked Reloaded and Revolutions. They both have their problems: heavy-handed dialogue, a dependance on heavy-handed dialogue to propel the movie(s) rather than the other way around and stiff, detached performances that are even more noticable amid the visual chaos, to name a few.

But they also have their assets: an amazingly varied visual palette that leads to the expansive, limitless stagings of Reloaded to the claustrophobic industrial decay of Revolutions; also the depiction of the Matrix as a society into itself got more concern from me than any single character, real or otherwise. Revolutions gets credit for providing a fine conclusion that doesn't rely on blowed-em-up-real-good mentality. Reloaded gets credit for at least remaining interesting upon second viewing. The Matrix gets credit for . . . providing a starting point, I believe it to be the weakest of the three.

As for the religious/philosophical aspect as concluded in Revolutions . . . meh. It's interesting stuff to be sure, and provided a better backdrop to set the action to than many, many other action/fantasy films. But if I want to watch random spouting off of various beliefs I'd much rather watch Waking Life.

cruzness

11-11-03, 03:23 PM

Originally posted by Philip Reuben
1. Exciting action scenes with excellent special effects
2. Well-developed characters that I found myself caring a great deal about
3. A well-conceived continuation and ending to a gripping story
4. A source of a lot of interesting debate

Okay?

And this is, of course, an opinion that people are entitled to not share. I thought Reloaded and Revolutions were huge successes in every way. I didn't enjoy them as much as the original, but I wouldn't expect them to. They were still excellent, excellent movies.

Why would I do that when I enjoyed them so much?

Reading this page would be a start. (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html)

I totally agree. I just got back from seeing it at a matinee show and I enjoyed it immensely. I wasn.t as good as the first one, but then again how dould it be with all the expectations. The reaction from the people in the crowd was positive also. I didn't hear people saying it sucked. They were saying how good it was. I almost skipped out on this because of all the whining I heard from people on this board. Thank God I didn't listen. I drove home aching to get home to post my thoughts about this.
To all the whiners who try to ruin the movie by constantly bashing every little thing about it: You're d**ks.
To everyone who talks about how they would make changes because they didn't like the way the movie came out: Let's see who'd give you money to make a movie franchise that you would like to see.
The Matrix movies succeeded because They did what they were supposed to do: ENTERTAIN

beefjerky

11-11-03, 04:59 PM

I saw someone bitching again about the rave scene. Frankly, it didn't bother me at all, but I can see how some people would be put off by it. However, it served it's purpose. It showed the difference between Zion and the Matrix. The Matrix was paradise, where the living was comfortable but the truth unknown. Zion was dark and uncomfortable, but it was a place where people knew the truth, and where raw human emotion reigned free. Zion was to hell as the matrix is to heaven. It was place where those who sinned against God went. Those who rejected God's paradise by eating from the tree of knowledge. Notice how the camera lingers on Neo's plug's during the sex scene. These plugs are markings of heaven, scars from his fall. Also notice in Revolutions that when the wires are attached to Neo at the end, the light surges through them to form the shape of angel wings, signifying his return to heaven. The scene was also meant to show how Zion was womb-like, being near the center of the earth where it was warm. A birthplace for humans.

I've noticed a lot of people getting pissed off because the movie didn't explain how Neo destroyed Smith. I think the answers were in the movie all along.

Smith is Neo’s opposite, as the Oracle said to Neo, “he is you.” Smith is the part of Neo’s mind that Neo is trying to understand, and vice versa. Neo doesn’t understand what Smith exactly is, and even though the Oracle tells him, there’s a difference between knowing and understanding (this idea is brought up a lot through the series). At the end of Revolutions Smith is desperately trying to understand why Neo keeps getting up to fight. They’re both trying to understand each other. They are also both on spiritual journeys. Smith was killed by Neo, but somehow he was resurrected. What does this mean? Resurrection is mainly a human thing, and machines don’t have it. By resurrection, Smith has awakened to spirituality, and he has a purpose now. They are both on paths to reach their version of enlightenment. But to reach enlightenment, you must quiet your mind, and both Neo and Smith can’t do that because they are at constant odds with each other, and since they are one and the same, they cannot quiet the conflict in their minds. Seraph put it best when he said, “You do not truly know someone until you fight them.” Through battle, they are trying to understand each other and themselves.

Now let’s rewind back to the Architect’s conversation with Neo in Reloaded. The Architect says to Neo, “Which brings us at last to the moment of truth wherein the fundamental flaw is ultimately expressed and the anomaly revealed as both beginning and end.”

“Everything that has a beginning has an end.”

The tagline of Revolutions. Neo represents birth, change, beginning. Smith represents death, destruction, end. Understand that each isn’t concrete black and white good and evil, and there are shades of gray in both characters, but I’m going to leave out my observations on that to simplify my explanation of the ending. Neo and Smith are beginning and end respectively, but not both. At the end, when the Oracle is speaking through Smith, they say, “Everything that has a beginning has an end, Neo.” What is the purpose of the One? To return to the Source, "allowing a temporary dissemination of the code [he] [carries], reinserting the prime program," but to do that, the anomaly has to be both beginning and end. When Neo hears Smith say this, he understands that it was inevitable that he would return to the Source, and he understands that he can stop Smith by taking him to the Source. Neo must let Smith take over, so that both can merge to become both beginning and end.

Once they merge, they return to the Source. Neo is already directly connected to the Source at this point, and once he becomes one with Smith, their code is disseminated and the prime program of the matrix reinserted, thus destroying both of them. But don’t look at it as Neo being destroyed, look at it as him finally finishing his spiritual journey, ascending to the Source, reaching enlightenment to sit at the right hand of god yadda yadda yadda.

How does this theory fit in with the previous Ones?

The previous Ones all returned to the Source, and they all helped to reloaded the matrix, yet they were not truly both beginning and end. Each of the previous Ones were beginning, in that they helped keep the system static and stable. Each reload of the matrix meant that the system was preserved just the way it was, static and unchanging. What these Ones were doing was beginning another static version of the Matrix, but not bringing about an end to that system. However, they were slowly working their way towards change.

When the One was reincarnated a sixth time as Neo, the conditions were right to introduce change. The "karma" of the previous Ones created Neo, who was now closer than ever to reaching that final enlightenment, and thus far more powerful. With the dual nature of the universe, Smith also rose to equal power. Since they are one and the same, Neo had to become one with Smith, his negative, his bad karma, to understand and reach enlightenment. It is only when one conquers the negative aspects of oneself that they can destroy karma and truly reach enlightenment. Neo understood the beginning and the end, and was able to conquer them both and bring about true change.

With his ascension into the Source, Neo ended the static, changing system of the matrix, and brought about the beginning of a new era of growth. You cannot have growth without a beginning and an end and Neo was the one who realized this and made it happen. Notice how this reload of the matrix is the seventh version, seven being a holy number.

Otto

11-11-03, 05:18 PM

Originally posted by chess
but to many people, myself included, these movies most decidedly did not "stink". i believe they'll be fondly remembered over time and will compare favorably with the alien, terminator, and star wars series.
A very apt comparison indeed. All four of these series started out good, but have now degenerated into crap. I remind you of Alien 3, SW: Eps 1 and 2, T3.

And now, Matrix 3.

And if you don't think the movie stunk, you're seeing more than was actually there. Sorry.

All you people who keep trying to explain it in religious terms and symbolism and shit like that just don't get it. The problem with the movie is not its lack of symbolism and spiritual BS. The problem with the movie is that the physical explanations of many parts of the movie were lacking. That's it. Spiritual explanations are not satisfying answers to physical manifestations.

In the matrix world, I don't have any objections to the actions taken and I have no objection to the ending in terms of how he killed Smith. Neo was stronger than Smith in the end, and that's end of discussion really.

And BTW, It's all great and dandy to say that Neo destroyed Smith because it was thematically correct in one way or another, but who freakin' cares about that? It was visually incorrect becuase it looked like Dragonball Z gone berserk. I've never seen a scene look so fake in my life. That whole part was just awful. However, since it *was* fake, being that it took place in the Matrix itself, I let it slide. But they only got by on a technicality.

Daytrip

11-11-03, 05:46 PM

Originally posted by Otto
A very apt comparison indeed. All four of these series started out good, but have now degenerated into crap. I remind you of Alien 3, SW: Eps 1 and 2, T3.

And now, Matrix 3.

And if you don't think the movie stunk, you're seeing more than was actually there. Sorry.

All you people who keep trying to explain it in religious terms and symbolism and shit like that just don't get it. The problem with the movie is not its lack of symbolism and spiritual BS. The problem with the movie is that the physical explanations of many parts of the movie were lacking. That's it. Spiritual explanations are not satisfying answers to physical manifestations.

In the matrix world, I don't have any objections to the actions taken and I have no objection to the ending in terms of how he killed Smith. Neo was stronger than Smith in the end, and that's end of discussion really.

And BTW, It's all great and dandy to say that Neo destroyed Smith because it was thematically correct in one way or another, but who freakin' cares about that? It was visually incorrect becuase it looked like Dragonball Z gone berserk. I've never seen a scene look so fake in my life. That whole part was just awful. However, since it *was* fake, being that it took place in the Matrix itself, I let it slide. But they only got by on a technicality.

the problem with people like you is you can't stand the fact that some people liked the movies. who cares if you don't like it, i didn't like Citizen Cane but i don't rip on people who do.

if they get some spiritual connection out of it who are you to tell them it's not BS........it's like trying to tell people that your way of life is right and theirs is wrong

RocShemp

11-11-03, 06:11 PM

Originally posted by beefjerky
I saw someone bitching again about the rave scene. Frankly, it didn't bother me at all, but I can see how some people would be put off by it. However, it served it's purpose. It showed the difference between Zion and the Matrix. The Matrix was paradise, where the living was comfortable but the truth unknown. Zion was dark and uncomfortable, but it was a place where people knew the truth, and where raw human emotion reigned free. Zion was to hell as the matrix is to heaven. It was place where those who sinned against God went. Those who rejected God's paradise by eating from the tree of knowledge. Notice how the camera lingers on Neo's plug's during the sex scene. These plugs are markings of heaven, scars from his fall. Also notice in Revolutions that when the wires are attached to Neo at the end, the light surges through them to form the shape of angel wings, signifying his return to heaven. The scene was also meant to show how Zion was womb-like, being near the center of the earth where it was warm. A birthplace for humans.

I've noticed a lot of people getting pissed off because the movie didn't explain how Neo destroyed Smith. I think the answers were in the movie all along.

Smith is Neo’s opposite, as the Oracle said to Neo, “he is you.” Smith is the part of Neo’s mind that Neo is trying to understand, and vice versa. Neo doesn’t understand what Smith exactly is, and even though the Oracle tells him, there’s a difference between knowing and understanding (this idea is brought up a lot through the series). At the end of Revolutions Smith is desperately trying to understand why Neo keeps getting up to fight. They’re both trying to understand each other. They are also both on spiritual journeys. Smith was killed by Neo, but somehow he was resurrected. What does this mean? Resurrection is mainly a human thing, and machines don’t have it. By resurrection, Smith has awakened to spirituality, and he has a purpose now. They are both on paths to reach their version of enlightenment. But to reach enlightenment, you must quiet your mind, and both Neo and Smith can’t do that because they are at constant odds with each other, and since they are one and the same, they cannot quiet the conflict in their minds. Seraph put it best when he said, “You do not truly know someone until you fight them.” Through battle, they are trying to understand each other and themselves.

Now let’s rewind back to the Architect’s conversation with Neo in Reloaded. The Architect says to Neo, “Which brings us at last to the moment of truth wherein the fundamental flaw is ultimately expressed and the anomaly revealed as both beginning and end.”

“Everything that has a beginning has an end.”

The tagline of Revolutions. Neo represents birth, change, beginning. Smith represents death, destruction, end. Understand that each isn’t concrete black and white good and evil, and there are shades of gray in both characters, but I’m going to leave out my observations on that to simplify my explanation of the ending. Neo and Smith are beginning and end respectively, but not both. At the end, when the Oracle is speaking through Smith, they say, “Everything that has a beginning has an end, Neo.” What is the purpose of the One? To return to the Source, "allowing a temporary dissemination of the code [he] [carries], reinserting the prime program," but to do that, the anomaly has to be both beginning and end. When Neo hears Smith say this, he understands that it was inevitable that he would return to the Source, and he understands that he can stop Smith by taking him to the Source. Neo must let Smith take over, so that both can merge to become both beginning and end.

Once they merge, they return to the Source. Neo is already directly connected to the Source at this point, and once he becomes one with Smith, their code is disseminated and the prime program of the matrix reinserted, thus destroying both of them. But don’t look at it as Neo being destroyed, look at it as him finally finishing his spiritual journey, ascending to the Source, reaching enlightenment to sit at the right hand of god yadda yadda yadda.

How does this theory fit in with the previous Ones?

The previous Ones all returned to the Source, and they all helped to reloaded the matrix, yet they were not truly both beginning and end. Each of the previous Ones were beginning, in that they helped keep the system static and stable. Each reload of the matrix meant that the system was preserved just the way it was, static and unchanging. What these Ones were doing was beginning another static version of the Matrix, but not bringing about an end to that system. However, they were slowly working their way towards change.

When the One was reincarnated a sixth time as Neo, the conditions were right to introduce change. The "karma" of the previous Ones created Neo, who was now closer than ever to reaching that final enlightenment, and thus far more powerful. With the dual nature of the universe, Smith also rose to equal power. Since they are one and the same, Neo had to become one with Smith, his negative, his bad karma, to understand and reach enlightenment. It is only when one conquers the negative aspects of oneself that they can destroy karma and truly reach enlightenment. Neo understood the beginning and the end, and was able to conquer them both and bring about true change.

With his ascension into the Source, Neo ended the static, changing system of the matrix, and brought about the beginning of a new era of growth. You cannot have growth without a beginning and an end and Neo was the one who realized this and made it happen. Notice how this reload of the matrix is the seventh version, seven being a holy number.

I like your take on the movies. It fits quite well. Also,your assumptions aboutNeoechocomments made about Seraph by other programs in Revolutions (mention about him being without wings and how he'san angel fallen from heaven - the latter being said by the Merovingian in a bit of French dialog). Did you notice that the lightning behindSmith in one shot of the fight also formed wings?

I would to read your observations about how Neo and Smith are neither truly good nor truly bad (I'm assuming part of your conclusions comes from Neo's look of glee as he is about to kill the guard he's showing hisgunstoin the lobby scene in The Matrix) but rather shades of gray.

Regurgitator

11-11-03, 06:11 PM

Originally posted by El-Kabong
However, a major plot point like why Neo can suddenly manipulate the real world like he can inside the Matrix needs a little bit more detail than. . . .

Neo: "What the hell is going on? Why can I stop machines with my mind?"

Oracle: "You are connected to the Source, Neo."

Neo nods knowingly, the Oracle smokes some more and then they change the subject.

Oh, yeah right - Neo is connected to the source! Duh! Of course! How could I not pick up on that. Gee, thanks guys - that really cleared things up for me.

Look.. it's obvious. The reason why Neo can manipulate the source outside the Matrix is much the same reason why some people can move things around (Telekinesis) or read people's thoughts (Clairvoyance)... and so on. Can anyone explain how some people can do that? It's the same thing how Neo can stop machines with his mind. End of subject.

Originally posted by El-Kabong
No - if they were going with the Life Isn't Perfect ending, then why didn't they show some balls and have the Humans *LOSE*. Neo gets snuffed and the machines sweeps Zion clean of these rebellious little Meatbags.

No, the W Brother and Shemale were only capable of delivering a BAD ending. . . .

Hey, every movie we see nowadays either have one side winning in the end. This movie is different and doesn't follow the trend and therefore, is unique in it's own right. Although unexpected by most and different, I say the ending was perfect as I predicted after seeing Matrix Reloaded.

(**SPOILER**) My assumption was either both the human race and the machines both die or they all must co-exist with each other in order to survive. If you look into it more.. boths sides did win... no one lost.

The story all makes you wonder on how important it is if a new race of life appears on our planet. If the new race is sentient to be aware, it would make sense for it to co-exist with other forms of life on the planet or the problem of war will eventually kill everyone on both sides. Peace is the only solution. (**END OF SPOILER**)

chess

11-11-03, 06:33 PM

agreed. i think anyone who saw animatrix knew where the arc was going...hence their lack of disappointment. the whole story was about recreating the balance, the harmony, between man and machine.

PixyJunket

11-11-03, 07:00 PM

Philip Reuben

11-11-03, 07:03 PM

Originally posted by Otto
And if you don't think the movie stunk, you're seeing more than was actually there. Sorry.

If I came out of the cinema with the feeling that I'd seen an excellent movie, and an excellent ending to a movie trilogy... am I "seeing more than was actually there"?

Or is just, y'know, that I disagree with you? It's possible, believe it or not :P

And BTW, It's all great and dandy to say that Neo destroyed Smith because it was thematically correct in one way or another, but who freakin' cares about that? It was visually incorrect becuase it looked like Dragonball Z gone berserk. I've never seen a scene look so fake in my life. That whole part was just awful. However, since it *was* fake, being that it took place in the Matrix itself, I let it slide. But they only got by on a technicality.

Whether it made sense and whether it looked good are two totally unrelated issues. Personally I think it looked great, and in anime terms, in reminded me more of X than DBZ.

beefjerky

11-11-03, 07:04 PM

Originally posted by RocShemp
I like your take on the movies. It fits quite well. Also,your assumptions aboutNeoechocomments made about Seraph by other programs in Revolutions (mention about him being without wings and how he'san angel fallen from heaven - the latter being said by the Merovingian in a bit of French dialog). Did you notice that the lightning behindSmith in one shot of the fight also formed wings?

I would to read your observations about how Neo and Smith are neither truly good nor truly bad (I'm assuming part of your conclusions comes from Neo's look of glee as he is about to kill the guard he's showing hisgunstoin the lobby scene in The Matrix) but rather shades of gray.

Well, Seraph is short for "seraphim," which is an angel of heaven. His gold code designated that he was a divine being. I don't think he necessarily fell from heaven, but he is a wingless angel, and he is a servant of God (the Oracle). Yeah, I also noticed that the lightning behind Smith formed bat-like, devil wings. That was pretty cool.

Look at how Neo is portrayed in the films, especially during the Architect scene in Reloaded. Architect = architect of the universe = God. We can't deny the allusions to God. The Architect is dressed in pristine white, giving off a heavenly look, while Neo stands infront of him in all black, looking like the devil himself. He is devil-like in that he comes into God's world and wreaks havoc, helping to spread the fruit of knowledge among God's people. In the first two movies, he kills the very people he is trying to save, because they are still vehemently connected to God and his world. Again, he is the fallen angel, carrying with him the scars of his former wings (plugs). He has rejected the perfection of heaven to come live in the world of truth, where the living is hell but the people are in control of their own lives... and where the sex is primal, animalistic, and I'm guesing, really, really good.

However, this is not true evil either. Neo is like the devil/serpent in that he tempts others in the Matrix with the fruit of knowledge, but is it really evil? What does the serpent represent in secular terms? The serpent is change, upheaving the ignorant ways and thoughts of religion and bringing in change and growth. Outside of heaven, man is able to make and create without heaven doing it for him. Change is a dangerous game, but it leads to better things, like growth. The machines don't understand growth. They only know how to keep things perfect and static, like the world of the matrix. Why did the first matrix fail? Because it was designed to be a perfect world, where none suffered, but humans cannot grow without suffering and death. So they changed the matrix to include all that, and they thought they were keeping the system perfect and unchanging, but in fact they were helping humans to grow. Neo and the other Ones, represent that growth, that force of change that will eventually change the system radically, bringing growth to the machines and humans. Things were already moving towards that in the machines world, as shown by Rama Kandra and his wife falling in love in the machine world and having a daughter, but the machines were desperately trying to stifle growth by eradicating any programs without purpose, in order to keep the system static. Neo would be the catalyst for change, because both humans and machines need to grow, and one cannot live without the other.

Plus we have Revolutions that shows that Neo is part of the system that he is trying to destroy. He is the son of God, and he is equally connected to both the machines and humans. This goes into his good, benevolent nature driven by love.

Smith is on the same type of journey as Neo. His journey is spiritual in nature, in that he was resurrected and awoke to a greater purpose in life. He is also a force of change, but that change is seen as bad by both the machines and the humans. He has grown more than any other program. Through resurrection he has attained human characteristics, and his emotional side has grown tremendously. His blinding hate for Neo has focused him on his path to enlightenment. He has broken free of the static world of the machines and has learned to grow, even if it is in a primitive, viral way. So who is to say that his purpose and his path to enlightenment is bad? He's achieved great things through his anger, and his focused sense of purpose has brought him into a higher sense of being. Like monks who train through meditation, he has quited his mind, gained clear sight, and in a way, has found inner peace. He is a detriment to many others, but all change will always be like that, not everyone wants to accept it. Then you start to get into talk about who defines what's right and what's wrong, and all that crap, and that's just too much to get into.

chess

11-11-03, 07:08 PM

Originally posted by PixyJunket
:lol: rotfl :lol: :lol: rotfl :lol: :lol: rotfl :lol: :lol: rotfl :lol: :lol: rotfl :lol: :lol: rotfl :lol:

yeah, that's a pretty lousy explaination...

neo can do it because he is part machine...otherwise, how could he carry the matrix code? when he went to the source (architect), he became connected to the collective...in a powerful way that he didn't understand right away. when he used the new ability and went into the machine world, he didn't know how to get out.

probably not much better, but hopefully better than "i can't explain it, end of subject"

caveat emptor

B.A.

11-11-03, 07:09 PM

I just saw it and I give it ***1/2 out of *****. I don't know what to think now except they should have stopped after the first one.

I really enjoyed parts of this one - such as, The Mech-warrior battle in Zion was quite good. I really liked Reloaded, but this one makes much of Reloaded pointless to me. Other than introducing the Architect and the rogue programs, all that Reloaded did was display the limitless possibilities of fighting in the Matrix. Yes, it gave us a hint that Neo's power can translate into the real world and that Smith was becoming more powerful, but it didn't really answer to many of the questions brought up in Reloaded.

I don't know - maybe I was just expecting too much from this third installment and wanted all of the questions raised answered.

I'm not unhappy w/ the ending - it stuck w/ the core theme of the series, freedom of choice, and I guess I should be happy w/ that at least.

Ranger

11-11-03, 07:10 PM

I don't feel like typing a long post, but I saw the movie last week. It was okay, there certainly was some parts I was confused about, but I was able to follow along the story pretty well. I loved the first two movies, but for the third one, it was a bit disappointing.

What I didn't like about the movie -
1. Monica Bellucci as Persephone, come on guys, couldn't they have given her more screentime???
2. I didn't really like the final Neo/Smith fight.
3. I thought the firefight was too long.

What I did like -
1. It was cool to see the Oracle's bodyguard in action.
2. The fight before Merovingian.
3. Neo trapped at the subway.

There's the balance. :)

beefjerky

11-11-03, 07:15 PM

Originally posted by chess
yeah, that's a pretty lousy explaination...

neo can do it because he is part machine...otherwise, how could he carry the matrix code? when he went to the source (architect), he became connected to the collective...in a powerful way that he didn't understand right away. when he used the new ability and went into the machine world, he didn't know how to get out.

probably not much better, but hopefully better than "i can't explain it, end of subject"

caveat emptor

There was a reason why they beat into your head the fact that Neo was a man, and any comments about Neo being in machine weren't meant literally and they were probably meant to reinforce his connection to the divine. Everyone from the matrix is part machine because of their plugs and stuff, but that's not what's important. If the matrix is feeding the sensations of living directly into your brain, then it's obvious that everyone connected to the matrix is being fed code, or carrying code in their brains. Look at it as everyone connected to the matrix that carries the code is connected to God.

RocShemp

11-11-03, 08:25 PM

Originally posted by beefjerky
Well, Seraph is short for "seraphim," which is an angel of heaven. His gold code designated that he was a divine being. I don't think he necessarily fell from heaven, but he is a wingless angel, and he is a servant of God (the Oracle). Yeah, I also noticed that the lightning behind Smith formed bat-like, devil wings. That was pretty cool.

Haven't finished reading your entire post yet but wanted to point out that the Seraph angle was obvious to me since the seraphim were the angels that guarded the Garden of Eden when Adam and Eve were ousted. "I protect that which matters most." Also, the Tree of Knowledge is often popularly represented as an apple tree and the machine talking to the world leaders towards the end of The Second Reneiscance part 2 was holding an apple during his speech.

RocShemp

11-11-03, 08:34 PM

beefjerky,

Read it all. Great explanation. :thumbsup: I'm glad I'm not the only one that got a lot out of the third film. :)

ckolchak

11-11-03, 08:53 PM

There was a reason why they beat into your head the fact that Neo was a man, and any comments about Neo being in machine weren't meant literally and they were probably meant to reinforce his connection to the divine.

they were beating a lot of things into your head, most of which was unneccessary or not pertinent to the actual narrative.
seems pretty obvious to, although most do not want to believe it, that Zion , that the possibility of life outside of the matrix is, of course just another matrix.
this of course doesn't invalidate how many biblical allusions the brothers sprinkled in the film(s) or suddenly render the philosophical pretentions moot.
it seems, contrary to mutually exclusive dialouge, people don't want to accept the simplest answer because its TOO obivous and we all know the Wachowski brothers are soooooo brilliant, and their keen minds are so superior to the average popcorn munching joe, that the non-specified reason for this insultingly large plot point must carry with it some grandiose leaps of imagination.

of course, whether it is or is not a MIAM makes absolutely no difference anyway-
real or simulation, not much is changed after the two sequels in matter of fact- save for the new "perception" of choice.

fumanstan

11-11-03, 09:34 PM

Just saw the film today on IMAX and absolutely loved it. The action had me on the edge of my seat, especially the last fight between Neo and Smith. Maybe it was the rush of seeing Dragonball Z like moves by actors on the big screen :) And reading through these posts helped me understand some of the plot specifics and the religious undertones. 5 Stars :D

Oh, and i don't believe in the Matrix within a Matrix theory. I simply felt that there was a link between the Matrix and the real world and that's all there was to it. I didn't feel a lot of the tid bits that people are harking on needed to be explained; most of them i just accepted, i.e. Neo's powers in the real world.

Original Desmond

11-11-03, 11:49 PM

Terrible disappointment!

ACtions scenes were very ordinary, nothing new at all

chess

11-11-03, 11:50 PM

Originally posted by beefjerky
There was a reason why they beat into your head the fact that Neo was a man, and any comments about Neo being in machine weren't meant literally and they were probably meant to reinforce his connection to the divine. Everyone from the matrix is part machine because of their plugs and stuff, but that's not what's important. If the matrix is feeding the sensations of living directly into your brain, then it's obvious that everyone connected to the matrix is being fed code, or carrying code in their brains. Look at it as everyone connected to the matrix that carries the code is connected to God.

Neo was created and/or modified by the machines with the specific purpose of carrying the matrix code and reloading the program. he is simply another form of control for humans, specifically, those in the zion, and he is, indeed, a machine (or at very least a hybrid like smith).

the fact that the programs in the matrix think and repeat ad nauseum that he's "merely human" is part of carrying out their purpose...plus they are clearly and repeatedly shown otherwise. truth is, they don't know his role in the big scheme of things any more than the humans do. being programs, they "only do what they are meant to do". agents destroy insurgents, keymakers make keys, architects design, and the one reboots the system and rebuilds the island for those who reject the program...but they all work for the same system...

until neo chooses the other door and rejects his purpose, then all bets are off and he can choose (and expand) his own purpose...with a bit of nudging from the oracle.

El-Kabong

11-12-03, 01:00 AM

Originally posted by Regurgitator
Look.. it's obvious. The reason why Neo can manipulate the source outside the Matrix is much the same reason why some people can move things around (Telekinesis) or read people's thoughts (Clairvoyance)... and so on. Can anyone explain how some people can do that? It's the same thing how Neo can stop machines with his mind. End of subject.

If Telekinesis or Clairvoyance or Jedi Mind Tricks were ever demonstrated, alluded to or otherwise referenced in the Outside-The-Matrix world, then maybe - JUST maybe - I could buy Neo suddenly gaining all kinds of freaky powers. However, up to that point any and all Jedi Mind Tricks were restricted to the Inside-the-Matrix world. Until then Neo was living in the same world where you and I exist where none of those things happen.

It wouldn't have taken any extra time at all. Even monkeys could have pooped out a solution in their sleep:

Oracle: "You're connected to The Source?"

Neo: "The Source?"

O: "It's what gives you your power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us, penetrates us and binds the galaxy together" or somesuch nonsense.

See - it's not all that hard.

But no, the Hack Brothers (and Shemale) decided to spout out some vague deep-sounding bullshit excuse and quickly change the subject before anyone had a chance to think about what they were saying.

Nope - they realized that they'd painted themselves in a corner and then totally dropped the ball. Yet again showing that they couldn't write their way out of a paper bag.

Hey, every movie we see nowadays either have one side winning in the end. This movie is different and doesn't follow the trend and therefore, is unique in it's own right. Although unexpected by most and different, I say the ending was perfect as I predicted after seeing Matrix Reloaded.

Unique? Hardly. I can think of a dozen movies where the writers couldnt come up with a good finish. Hell, I could think of hundreds of movies that sucked ass in the end.

beefjerky

11-12-03, 01:05 AM

Originally posted by chess
Neo was created and/or modified by the machines with the specific purpose of carrying the matrix code and reloading the program. he is simply another form of control for humans, specifically, those in the zion, and he is, indeed, a machine (or at very least a hybrid like smith).

the fact that the programs in the matrix think and repeat ad nauseum that he's "merely human" is part of carrying out their purpose...plus they are clearly and repeatedly shown otherwise. truth is, they don't know his role in the big scheme of things any more than the humans do. being programs, they "only do what they are meant to do". agents destroy insurgents, keymakers make keys, architects design, and the one reboots the system and rebuilds the island for those who reject the program...but they all work for the same system...

until neo chooses the other door and rejects his purpose, then all bets are off and he can choose (and expand) his own purpose...with a bit of nudging from the oracle.

I think trying to reason Neo's powers with the idea that he is half program or some type of cyborg is on par with trying to explain Jesus's abilities with the idea of midichlorians or something.

Neo was a man. He derived his power from the source like Jesus (also a man in case you forgot) derived his power from God. I think what's most important is the spirtual aspect of this, not the scientific.

jough

11-12-03, 01:33 AM

Originally posted by beefjerky
Neo was a man. He derived his power from the source like Jesus

Who?

Giantrobo

11-12-03, 11:16 AM

I saw Revolutions last night and I liked it.

Did I have some questions? Yeah...but I didn't worry because I knew the "netgeeks" would answer any questions I had with a passion and a "know it all conviction" :lol:

chess

11-12-03, 11:21 AM

Originally posted by beefjerky
I think trying to reason Neo's powers with the idea that he is half program or some type of cyborg is on par with trying to explain Jesus's abilities with the idea of midichlorians or something.

Neo was a man. He derived his power from the source like Jesus (also a man in case you forgot) derived his power from God. I think what's most important is the spirtual aspect of this, not the scientific.

fortunately, this is all fairly open to interpretation, so i'll just respect your opinion...

however, i still submit that Neo
1) was created/modified by the machines
2) was created with a purpose
3) was a form of control (his purpose)
4) the other players in the matrix (merv, oracle, keymaker...) were part of a planned process in which their actions cause Neo's reactions.

PURPOSE, CONTROL, CAUSATION

anyway, that's what i took out of it, but the great thing about these films is that you could take something else out of it and still be right. I almost hope i never find out what the brothers actually had in mind.

Giantrobo

11-12-03, 11:31 AM

...and another thing I remember when dvdtalk was full of the Hate Jada posts. You know, the usual "she's not a hot white chick and she doesn't get my Geek dick hard so she's not allowed to be liked" posts that run around here?...anyway Jada was good in Reloaded and Revolutions. She was a strong character AND her role was more interesting than Belluci's. Don't get me wrong Belluci was hot but so what?

Der Krieger1979

11-12-03, 11:32 AM

A perfect ending to a perfect trilogy. I did want more wire-fu in Revolutions though (I love wire-fu). I also wanted to see more Neo throughout the film, but understanding the anime influences, it's expected. Take DBZ for instance... Goku, the 'savior', will often be out of commission during part of a saga but will save the day at the end much like Neo did. I loved the Dragon Ball Zish fight at the end too. What an amazing fight.

I'd go into some of the philosophy but everyone else has done a great job in discussing it and those that think it's all bull are too jaded by their tastes and are probably better off watching one of those crappy zombie b-movies anyway. I'm sure they went into the theatres ready to pick it apart anyway.

I think the Matrix trilogy was just way too over the majority of its viewer's heads for its own good. As someone who loves anime, philosophy, and kung fu, the Matrix was a wet dream. Thank you Wachowskis.

Groucho

11-12-03, 11:33 AM

I don't remember one post where somebody said they didn't like Jada because she wasn't white.

Der Krieger1979

11-12-03, 11:36 AM

Jada annoys me and I didn't really want her in Reloaded or Revolutions, but the race to Zion scene was awesome... I'll give her that.

chess

11-12-03, 12:00 PM

Originally posted by Der Krieger1979
Jada annoys me and I didn't really want her in Reloaded or Revolutions, but the race to Zion scene was awesome... I'll give her that.

I remember having a bit of a chuckle at the "she can drive" line during that scene...because (unless i'm confusing her with somebody else), jada is a notoriously bad driver.

i'm not sure if it was meant as a joke, but i enjoyed it.

Giantrobo

11-12-03, 12:01 PM

Originally posted by Der Krieger1979
Jada annoys me and I didn't really want her in Reloaded or Revolutions, but the race to Zion scene was awesome... I'll give her that.

...awwwwe come on! That's it? Didn't you want her to hook back up with Morpheus? I know I did.

Giantrobo

11-12-03, 12:02 PM

Originally posted by chess
I remember having a bit of a chuckle at the "she can drive" line during that scene...because (unless i'm confusing her with somebody else), jada is a notoriously bad driver.

i'm not sure if it was meant as a joke, but i enjoyed it.

Halle Barry is a bad driver isn't she?

Another hated woman of color here on dvdtalk. ;)

beefjerky

11-12-03, 12:18 PM

Originally posted by chess

4) the other players in the matrix (merv, oracle, keymaker...) were part of a planned process in which their actions cause Neo's reactions.

I don't think there really was a planned process. I think it was mainly the Oracle pushing things along.

The Oracle was the (un)seen hand that was guiding everything towards her goals. Her purpose was to study and understand humans and to unbalance the equation. Her understanding of humans allowed her to manipulate them. Like the Merovingian pointed out, Morpheus and Co. didn't understand the "why" of their actions. Their actions were the result of cause and effect. The Oracle understood that humans and machines need each other, and her vision of the future saw both species coexisting peacefully. You could not have this with the Architect's vision of the matrix. His purpose was to balance the equation, oppress humans with agents, help keep the system static, unchanging, and stifiling the growth of humans. However hard he tried to balance the equation, things would always fail. Humans would keep waking up and the anomaly would keep returning. His lack of understanding of humans and their need to grow kept him from realizing how to solve the problem.

The Oracle knew that the equation must be unbalanced. Human being can't adhere to perfection, and life cannot be looked at as a mathematical equation to balance because there are just too many unpredictable factors. So she manipulated human and program alike to unbalance the equation and end the opressive, calculating nature of the matrix. Smith was manipulated by gaining the Oracle's visions of the future. While the Oracle was not actively telling Smith what would happen, she foresaw a possible future where her goals would come to fruition. Smith was basing his actions on these visions, and so he too was manipulated by the Oracle. What he saw as him killing Neo was actually him merging with Neo to allow both to return to the Source, killing the code that both carried. Ultimately though, it was all up to Neo. She manipulated everyone towards the best possible outcome, but she did not always know it would happen. She had to believe Neo would make the right choice.

fumanstan

11-12-03, 01:24 PM

I didn't like Jada in Reloaded, but felt she was better in Revolutions. I'm just dissapointed that Morpheus got reduced to a co-pilot. A bad one at that :) Hell, even the Kid did more then him! :(

Patman

11-12-03, 01:47 PM

If you liken the Oracle to a dash of chaos, then it goes back to fractals, where order comes from chaos.

At the very beginning of the credits for Revolution, there's just a smidge of fractals on display in the green code spinning around on screen.

RocShemp

11-12-03, 04:50 PM

Originally posted by Patman
If you liken the Oracle to a dash of chaos, then it goes back to fractals, where order comes from chaos.

At the very beginning of the credits for Revolution, there's just a smidge of fractals on display in the green code spinning around on screen.

So that's what those were! I knew I'd seen them before but couldn't quite grasp what they reminded me of. You know, they appear just so briefly in Reloaded as well, if memory serves.

chess

11-12-03, 05:22 PM

Originally posted by Giantrobo
Halle Barry is a bad driver isn't she?

Another hated woman of color here on dvdtalk. ;)

oh great, now i'm stereotyping...i think you're right.

Giantrobo

11-12-03, 10:48 PM

Clive Barker's "Imajica" and "The Matrix" movies

Neo/Smith and Gentle/Sartori = Opposites but somehow related

Neo/Gentle = Good

Smith/Sartori = Bad

01/The First = "City of "God"? A place Neo/Gentle must go

The Fifth = People not aware of the truth concerning Imajica(other dominians)

The Matrix = People not aware of the truth concerning Earth(nothing left)

Gentle/Neo = Saviors unawair of their calling and powers

Jude/Trinity = Love relationship that causes Gentle/Neo to realize their role

Morpheus/Pie = Black characters who show Neo/Gentle the truth bringing them closer to what needs to be done

Hapexemdias(sp?)/The Architect = God, Father figures. Creators of Imajica/The Matrix

The Godesses/The Oracle = Female Gods sort of helping humans against Hapexemdias(sp?)/The Architect

The Kid/Monday = Zealous followers of Neo/Gentle

zero

11-13-03, 03:26 AM

http://www.movie-comics.com/comic.php?strip_id=232

:lol:

beefjerky

11-13-03, 04:35 AM

Originally posted by Patman
If you liken the Oracle to a dash of chaos, then it goes back to fractals, where order comes from chaos.

At the very beginning of the credits for Revolution, there's just a smidge of fractals on display in the green code spinning around on screen.

Hey, I never even thought to connect the two. I just remember thinking, "hey cool, fractals" during the beginning, but forgot about that soon afterward. Yeah, order arising from chaos - the Oracle unbalancing the equation sending it into chaos, which brought it to order.

Spiky

11-14-03, 05:30 PM

Well, I don't know if this is too late, but here's another post.

I saw this recently and am quite disappointed. I don't know exactly what I was expecting, but this wasn't it. What I do know is I have to stop looking forward to movies. Obviously a waste of time. Maybe I'm supposed to be a whacked-out Gnostic nutcase to understand Rev, I don't know. Cause I certainly didn't get most of it.

It was just too fast. Others have said it should be cut down, but I think that's just because they want it to be shorter to lessen the pain. What it really needs is some fleshing out. I want an EE version of Rev, because the scenes just didn't make sense. Not necessarily longer, just explain SOMETHING or do SOMETHING that makes sense in some universe somewhere, for god's sake.

Here's some:
--2 minutes to get Neo away from the most powerful independent program running around in the Matrix? Come on, surely he has a couple cajones tucked away somewhere.
--Poor cutting during the final battle completely ignoring the main character for 1/2 hour, already mentioned by some others above.
--Bane/Smith vs Neo. Not a single block? So, they're both awesome fighters in the Matrix, but can't do even a simple move outside?
--Are the machines really so incapable of making soldiers? Those Sentinels are nothing.

One thing I really liked was the train station. Good concept, excellent analogy, good switch on the trainmaster being god. Follows the pattern of Matrix technology to a T.

Didn't like Neo being at the station, though. What is he, WIFI? They spent 1.99 movies saying the Matrix world is precisely like ours, then bash it all down with Neo's ability in the real world at the end of Rel. Stupid. Make a universe, then stick to it. This is right up there with midichlorians. Dare I say it?: MiaM would have been better.

I was gonna see this in Imax, but good ol' MN got jacked on that so far. So then I decided to just go see it and check it out again when/if it shows up at my local Imax. Guess what, I don't see why I'd go. There's nothing worth seeing again.

StevieD

11-15-03, 11:16 AM

Set aside all the pseudo-philosophizing for a second. The fact is, Revolutions was poor filmmaking. Poor editing, poor use of special effects, and, the worst offense of all.....absolutely the worst dialogue. If MST3K was still on, this would be fair game ("hey look, its that guy on the train from "Ghost"..does this mean Whoopie Goldberg will show up as the third incarnation of the Oracle??"). Or how about poor Nathaniel Lees (Mifune) ("...Ahh, Andy, Larry..about the script...well, I've got three pages of "ARRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH"..there must have been a copying error or something....Andy/Larry - "Nope, that's it...but your character has a fantastic revelation where we find out he didn't complete the training either - fabulous, huh").

fumanstan

11-15-03, 12:25 PM

Opinion != Fact :)

JasonF

11-15-03, 05:46 PM

Originally posted by StevieD
Set aside all the pseudo-philosophizing for a second. The fact is, Revolutions was poor filmmaking. Poor editing, poor use of special effects, and, the worst offense of all.....absolutely the worst dialogue.

I agree 100%. I came away from the movie jealous of Neo; he didn't have to see the second half.

If MST3K was still on, this would be fair game ("hey look, its that guy on the train from "Ghost"..does this mean Whoopie Goldberg will show up as the third incarnation of the Oracle??").

When Bane had his knife at Trinity's throat, and Keanu was standing there staring at them, I came this close to shouting out "Pop quiz, hot shot!"

SteelWill

11-15-03, 06:19 PM

A lot of people seem to be misunderstanding Neo's powers in the real word. His only extra abilities outside the Matrix involved manipulating & detecting machines. I took the explaination of him being connected to the 'source' as being connected to the machine power source - the Matrix. It was a part of him (either by design or by accident) and thus he had influence over it while inside and over anything powered by it on the outside. That explains his being able to see machines in the real world (and note that's all he could see after being blinded), destroying the squids, and being able to jump into the Matrix w/o a hardline. It also explains Smith's ability to take it over and also use it as passage into the real world.

My thoughts on the movie itself - it and Reloaded were just bad filmmaking. The pacing was bad (really bad in Reloaded), the wardrobe was bad (again, really bad in Reloaded), and the dialogue was bad (when it was not rediculously campy and over dramatized then it was trying to sound smarter than it actually was with the philoso-babble). I was a big fan of the first movie, and I am rather in awe of these filmaker's ability to start a franchise with such a high (dare I say brilliant) mark and proceed to drive it into the ground with the two sequels.

I also feel the need to ask, what was the deal making Neo look like the dullest knife in the drawer when talking with Bane/Smith? That was almost as painful to sit through as Trinity's farewell speech.

beefjerky

11-15-03, 06:31 PM

From someone's review:

Neo: "Who are you?"

Bane (in a note-perfect Agent Smith voice): "Don't you know, Mr. Anderson?"

Neo: "Tell me who you are?"

BANE: "Mr. Anderson, I think you do know who I am..."

Neo: "No, I don't."

Bane: "Don't you recognize my voice? The Mr. Anderson part?"

Neo: "......."

Bane: "Black suit? Sunglasses?

Neo: "......."

Bane: Receding hairline? 'Mr. Anderson.' Any of this ringing a bell?"

Neo: "That's all fine, but WHO are you?"

Spiky

11-15-03, 09:45 PM

Originally posted by SteelWill
A lot of people seem to be misunderstanding Neo's powers in the real word. His only extra abilities outside the Matrix involved manipulating & detecting machines. I took the explaination of him being connected to the 'source' as being connected to the machine power source - the Matrix. It was a part of him (either by design or by accident) and thus he had influence over it while inside and over anything powered by it on the outside. That explains his being able to see machines in the real world (and note that's all he could see after being blinded), destroying the squids, and being able to jump into the Matrix w/o a hardline. It also explains Smith's ability to take it over and also use it as passage into the real world.

No, we don't misunderstand. This is just stupid. All of it that you mentioned, with the possible exception of Smith taking over Bane. At least that follows the capability of the Matrix, human linked to programs, etc., if poorly. Otherwise I totally agree with the other stuff you said. (that I didn't quote)

And can someone try to explain (cause nobody really can) why Seraph is golden? Nobody else apparently is. Or are all the programs gold? NO, of course not since the agents weren't in the original, nor was anyone in Merv's place. But now in the real world Neo "sees" goldenness for machines, too. But only sentient machines, or machines made by sentient machines, or power flow USED by sentient machines. He doesn't see anything like that from his own ship. Uh, Niobi's ship.

I hope the Ws are pleased, cause no one else is.

beefjerky

11-15-03, 09:58 PM

Originally posted by Spiky
No, we don't misunderstand. This is just stupid. All of it that you mentioned, with the possible exception of Smith taking over Bane. At least that follows the capability of the Matrix, human linked to programs, etc., if poorly. Otherwise I totally agree with the other stuff you said. (that I didn't quote)

And can someone try to explain (cause nobody really can) why Seraph is golden? Nobody else apparently is. Or are all the programs gold? NO, of course not since the agents weren't in the original, nor was anyone in Merv's place. But now in the real world Neo "sees" goldenness for machines, too. But only sentient machines, or machines made by sentient machines, or power flow USED by sentient machines. He doesn't see anything like that from his own ship. Uh, Niobi's ship.

I hope the Ws are pleased, cause no one else is.

Judging from the way youre talking about the golden thing, you obviously don't understand.

fumanstan

11-16-03, 03:40 AM

About the Bane/Smith and Neo thing... while i think it was pretty obvious, i can assume that Neo was just surprised because he didn't think that was possible. But it did make me want to say a big loud "duh!"

Regardless, i was still pleased with the movies.

huh?

11-16-03, 09:44 AM

The only thing I want to know after watching this movie is why was Morpheus reduced to a co-pilot after being such a bad ass in the first one. when Jada said to him: "Morpheus try to keep up", it was over for me....

Thats worse than Greedo shooting first.

fumanstan

11-16-03, 11:06 AM

Originally posted by huh?
The only thing I want to know after watching this movie is why was Morpheus reduced to a co-pilot after being such a bad ass in the first one. when Jada said to him: "Morpheus try to keep up", it was over for me....

Thats worse than Greedo shooting first.

Oh come on now, at least Morpheus didn't rob you of your childhood :)

Patman

11-16-03, 07:16 PM

The thing about Bane/Smith is that while many of us have had over 6 months to think about these events, the actual timeline in the film is very short, as in hours at best to reflect on it (if they did at all) plus the mounting threat of the machines coming knocking on Zion's doors. I can understand why the Bane/Smith development was not so clear to the rest of the crew.

I saw it on Imax for one last time yesterday, and noticed a few things that I hadn't on previous viewings:

1. When Char aims her shell-launcher down towards the machine driller, in the background you can see one of the infantry guys being thrown off the dock and you can hear the scream too. I was too focused watching Char the first couple of times before.

2. Someone earlier noticed that the Kid had a cut over his eye before he went out on his last run to reload Mifune, which meant that he and the other re-loaders were pretty busy re-loading the APUs during the attack, so it wasn't just that one time the Kid screws up his courage and goes out there. He was out there the entire time when his turn came to do the re-loads.

3. Getting back to the whole "why does Smith always use 'Mr. Anderson' when addressing Neo, well, it sets up the wake up call at the finale of Superbrawl where the Oracle is able to get her point across when she has Smith utter "Everything that has a beginning, has an end, Neo." I glossed over this on my other viewings, but it's quite evident to Neo when he hears this that it's the Oracle speaking through Smith.

Anyhow, there are a lot of details embedded in these films, and it'll be fun to get the DVD next year and peruse the film at my leisure.

RocShemp

11-17-03, 08:01 AM

I wonder if in the end the Kid was just supposed to be a red herring. I say this because after viewing The Animatrix many (myself included) believed (or, in some cases, were afraid) that the Kid would turn out to be the One after Neo died. Before anyone says "duh", I'm just posting this because while rewatching The Animatrix I noticed that I had forgotten the Kid's name. That being Michael Karl Popper. The reason I had found this so significant the first time I'd seen The Animatrix is because Michael is the name of the Word and that is Christ in his heavenly form before he descended on Earth. Of course, the Kid did not turn out to be the One so this was, to quote Cypher, "what a mind job!"

It's still weird, though, that the Kid was able to get himself out of the Matrix without the aid of a red pill or a hard line. Also, he always knows when Neo is around and keeps speaking of belief and things that are "meant to be".

Will they expound on any of this in the online comics that will follow the film or perhaps the MMORPG? Or another film? I know there's a lot of talk of The Matrix Revolutions being the last film but wasn't there also talk of The Matrix Reloaded and The Matrix Revolutions being one very long film that was split in two? If this is the case, that would mean there isn't a third film and the fourth, if ever made, would in fact be the conclusion to this trilogy.

If one does happen, I suppose Keanu would appear in a cameo showing himself to Morpheus with his plugs while still inside the Matrix (echoing a similar mircacle performed by Christ to one of his apostles when he showed the marks from his impalement in order for this apostle to believe that it was infact Jesus risen from the dead and standing there before him) but Neo would be portrayed by a different actor for the rest of the film.

I dunno, just some thoughts that popped into my head this morning.

Groucho

11-17-03, 08:13 AM

Yeah, Morpheus went from being the Obi-Wan of the first movie to the Chewbacca of the third.

huh?

11-17-03, 09:42 AM

the best part of revolutions for me was when trinity was taking an eternity to die, and there was this real akward feeling in the theatre, and someone yelled out, "Just Die Already, for the love of God!", and then the entire theatre (ok there were only about 20 of us), started laughing at once. good times.

alexkat

11-17-03, 01:30 PM

Here are my thoughts after seeing Revolutions. The real war was between the Architect and the Oracle regarding the programs that were on the run and not so much the humans. The Oracle was fighting for the programs and her freedom. I believe Oracle played Morpheus and the rest of the humans, used them as pawns. The final conversation between the Architect and the Oracle goes something like:

A: That's a dangerous game you played
O: and the others?
A: Those that want to be freed will be free

I believe the Architect is acknowledging that the programs on the run will now be free, like sati who makes the sunrise. The Oracle is refering to other programs besides herself and sati.

One important thing to ponder is why was the Oracle helping the humans? She was a program, if the humans were to win the war wouldn't that mean the end of the machines herself included.

Here's what I think happened, the Oracle was a program that studied humans, learned their traits. Importantly she learned choice, the ability to choose. Not all humans would accept 1 choice(to live in the matrix), so now programs in the matrix learned that they had a choice also, to not be deleted. Oracle is set for deletion but chooses not to be so she wakes up some humans, gives them knowledge of the matrix and sends them on errands to keep the agents and the architect busy while she pulls strings on her end.

There are a lot of new questions brought up if you look at this theory, but that's what I got out of Revolutions.

Philip Reuben

11-17-03, 03:43 PM

Originally posted by alexkat
One important thing to ponder is why was the Oracle helping the humans? She was a program, if the humans were to win the war wouldn't that mean the end of the machines herself included.

She didn't want humans to win the war though. She wanted peace between humans and machines.

Patman

11-18-03, 09:57 AM

The oracle was concerned with the future, and the only way to get there was for man and machine working together. She spoke of this in Reloaded.

RocShemp

11-18-03, 01:39 PM

Originally posted by Patman
The oracle was concerned with the future, and the only way to get there was for man and machine working together. She spoke of this in Reloaded.

Exactly.

I don't understand why so many have expressed confusion regarding the Oracle's motives simply because the Architect told her "that's a dangerous game you played". All he was talking about was her allowing Smith to take control of her. It was quite the risk since it did give Smith an edge and there was no guarantee that neo would realize that he had to submit to Smith in order to save all.

jekbrown

11-18-03, 02:43 PM

i think you guys think during a movie waaaaaay to much.

i dont know every lil detail of this make-believe world, and really... Im not sure I want too.

Revolutions was atleast 2x better than Reloaded... and seen as a whole (they really are 1 movie split in half) it is a worthy sequel to the 1st film. just my opinions.

j

jough

11-20-03, 09:09 AM

Are we still talking about the Matrix?

Bring on the third LORD OF THE RINGS!

Groucho

11-20-03, 09:12 AM

Originally posted by jough
Are we still talking about the Matrix?Well, we weren't until you bumped the thread.

das Monkey

11-21-03, 07:17 PM

What's another opinion ...

I finally stumbled out to see this today, and while I get what they're going for, and Revolutions helps bring everything to sufficient closure, I still can't help but feel a bit dumber for having seen it. It feels like the creators had something "very good" to present but tried so hard to make it appear "brilliant," infusing so much dialogue with vague pseudo-philosophical babble, that it lost most of its power by the end (I'm not saying all the philosophical dialogue was babble, but much of it was ... there was no need to wrap every line this way). Also, I can see why they'd want to make it a trilogy, but there are so many wasted scenes, dialogue, and even characters, that I wonder if they couldn't have just done it in two.

Overall, I guess my feeling on the series as a whole would be ... very good concept, poor execution. It's disappointing, since I think they could have done a much better job with the idea.

das

chess

11-23-03, 12:10 AM

Originally posted by das Monkey
...I still can't help but feel a bit dumber for having seen it. It feels like the creators had something "very good" to present but tried so hard to make it appear "brilliant," infusing so much dialogue with vague pseudo-philosophical babble, that it lost most of its power by the end (I'm not saying all the philosophical dialogue was babble, but much of it was ... there was no need to wrap every line this way).

nothing personal. i'm quoting you, but have heard this countless times from counless posters.

i'm not one of the three people who have this all figured out, and i agree that there is an awful lot of symbolism that seems to be there simply for the sake of symbolism, but i believe that there is a method to the madness in regards to the "psuedo-philosophical babble." When you say "lost it's power by the end", it begs the question, "lost on whom?" so, in that sense, i disagree with your assessment.

i guess i sort of agree with you in some regard, though, assuming that i understand what you're saying. it's cool to have a philosophical subtext for the net nerds to spend decades arguing about, but you don't beat joe public over the head with it. just tell your story, and let people infer what they want from it. for the casual viewer, there wasn't much there besides eye candy...albeit pretty f'ing good eye candy.

i still see this trilogy as a live action anime or a cyberpunk blade runner, and i think that in that context, it works perfectly. it could have been paced better, and it could have been a bit more coherent, but i think the brothers made the movie they wanted to see, and you sort of have to respect that.

either way, i'm thankful for the trilogy, as they are among my favorites as a series. wish you'd enjoyed it more, and hope you do enjoy it more on repeat viewings. some of my favorite films were completely lost on me the first few times...namely the aforementioned blade runner and starship troopers, which turned out to be a scathing social satire.

regards,
chess

Patman

11-23-03, 07:42 AM

More tidbits from my 3rd IMAX viewing (as one could infer, I liked this trilogy):

The train that picks up Sati and her parents has been labelled "Loop" which is funny considering what happens to Neo when he tries to run through the tunnel and ends up where he started, at the Limbo Ave. station.

It's entirely possible that right after the Trainman leaves Neo (takes Sati and her family on the train), and the scene cuts to Seraph/Trinity/Morpheus riding in the smooth ride, the train overhead them could have been the train smuggling Sati into the Matrix at that very moment.

I laugh when I think of Seraph taste-testing cookie dough for the Oracle to see if the dough is ready for baking. There is a sitcom idea to be mined here...

An important shift in Seraph's duties occurs when Sati shows up, notice that now Seraph guards Sati, and we all know that Seraph's purpose is to "protect that which matters most." Isn't that an interesting development given the new world order.

Niobi (Jada Pinkett Smith) is really short compared to Morpheus and Roland, so it's quite funny to notice that in shots that feature all of them from the waist up, it's pretty obvious that Jada is standing on something that keeps up near their height. The only time you see Niobi in a full body shot with Morpheus and Roland is when they exit the elevator door to meet Lock right after saving the day with the EMP blast. Niobi has to be almost a foot shorter than the other 2 captains.

Where did those infantry folks carry all their shells because at any given time, they only had 4 shells on them, but I have to think each team got off more than 4 shots. I guess they had to go back and get "re-loaded" with shells before heading back out to topple the drilling machines.

Carrie-Anne Moss's eyes look amazing lit by strong (sun) light in that wonderful scene when the Logos breaks through the clouds for those few precious seconds.

When the Logos goes back towards the Machine City, Neo's Machine vision gives us a layout of the Machine City, which appear to look like a fractal pattern, which I thought was neat, considering the whole fractal "order out of chaos" bent on the universe as a whole.

The SuperBrawl has these really powerful impactful shots that cause the rain to be "concussed" and it's pretty cool to watch how it's displayed on the screen. Neo and Smith are really going toe-to-toe and letting it all out. Without the rain, the impact of their punches and blows isn't as powerfully depicted. I commend the special effect team for putting a good amount of thinking into the SuperBrawl scenes.

The super slow-mo shot of Neo punching Smith is used to show exactly how fast and powerful Neo is, and what he was prepared to unleash until he came to the realization that he had to go another route to truly defeat Smith. The "bullet-time" aspect of the scene is probably lost on the casual viewer (is appears to produce chuckles and laughs, but underneath it, there's a good reason to show that scene as-is), but if you watch it in the context of the scene, it's actually more powerful each time it unfolds on the big screen, it is for me.

When Neo has been "absorbed" by Smith at the end, it appears that the tentacles that are holding up Neo are bracing themselves for that big ol' blast of yellow machine energy goodness. Whether DEM knew what was coming, or sense that Neo is about to unleash the big whammy on the Smith is left up to viewer interpretation. It still, in my mind, could go either way (DEM helps Neo to blast Smith from the inside, or Neo is the ONE that solely cleanses the Matrix of the Smith infection).


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