cungar

I vote for Liz since her music used to mean so much to me...

Who knew that all Liz Phair ever wanted was to be a pop star? Surely, her debut, Exile in Guyville, with its cinematic lo-fi production and frankness, never suggested as much, nor did its cleaner sequel, Whip-Smart, even if her appearance in negligee on the cover of Rolling Stone did imply she wanted a wider audience. In retrospect, perhaps the streamlined surfaces of Whitechocolatespaceegg were a bid for the big time, but it was undercut by songs of motherhood, marriage, and remnants of her time as an indie queen. All of that is a distant memory on her long-delayed eponymous fourth album, where she makes a long-delayed stab at superstardom, glamming herself up like a Maxim MILF of the Month and inexplicably pitching herself somewhere between Sheryl Crow and Avril Lavigne, on one side working with Michael Penn and adult alternative singer/songwriter Pete Yorn and on the other hooking up with 2003's hitmakers du jour the Matrix (not wanting to lose her aging core audience, she began her support tour for the album opening for the thirty-something darlings of the early '00s, the Flaming Lips, even if her new music was a far cry from indie). As "Extraordinary" starts the album with a heavy guitar downstroke, it's clear that Liz Phair has piled nearly all her chips on making it as a pop act, delivering music that not just fits comfortably with Lavigne's, but follows her sounds and stance, right down to the insipid lyrics. This, to say the least, is disarming, not just to die-hard fans of Exile who could never have dreamed that, of all the directions she could have gone, she chose this, but because such sentiments sound painfully trite coming from a 36-year-old woman. Throughout the album, these sparkly banalities come fast and furious, sometimes interrupted by something a little deeper, sometimes sounding catchy enough to sound pleasant in passing if you overlook both the lyrics and the fact that they're written by Phair, who used to be one of the sharpest writers in rock.
There's nothing wrong with a change of pace, but there's a startling lack of depth in either the words, which are entirely too literal, or the music, whose hooks are at once too obvious and not ingratiating enough. Then, there's the weird realization that Phair has so little to say on Liz Phair. While this very well could be her most directly confessional album — nearly every song is in the first person, with many songs drawing parallels to her circulated life story — there's no insight here, particularly when compared to, yes, her earlier work. It's not just that "The Divorce Song" details a messy breakup better than either of the divorce songs here (although that's an important, telling truth), it's that the parenting song is confused and condescending, it's that the endless songs about sleeping with twenty-something guys are littered with ridiculous lyrics ("I'm starting to think young guys rule," "I want to play Xbox on your floor"), and it's that she can't manage to write either a funny or sexy ode to her underwear on "Favorite." It's also that toward the end of this deliberate bid for the mainstream, she tosses in the embarrassingly "naughty" "HWC," where she extols the virtues of semen in the hair and on the skin ("Without you I'm just another Dorian Grey"); sure, it might seemingly break taboos, but what good is explicitness if it is only smarmy, with none of the humor or candor of "Flower" or "Glory." Yes, let's not compare a new record to an LP that's ten years old (although she invites those comparisons with a song like "HWC"), but Exile in Guyville has such a lasting impact, it's impossible to shake its memory when hearing her other, newer works. Liz Phair is running away from that shadow on Liz Phair, creating a record that is pretty much the polar opposite of that album, a shiny bright affair that wants nothing more than to be taken as a confection, even when it tries to dig deeper. It may be that Phair no longer has much to say — three albums after Exile, that's looking more like an anomaly in her catalog — but even so, the clothing and trappings of mainstream pop don't fit her well, and Liz Phair is a fascinatingly awkward, clumsy album. — Stephen Thomas Erlewine

SAShepherd

I agree with you, though I say this as someone who:
a) never was a Jewel fan to begin with (and has never listened to a Jewel album in its entirety), and
b) hasn't heard the new Liz Phair album at all.

"Sellout" is such a loaded term, however, that one person's "sellout" is another person's "conscious attempt at broadening their audience." In this case, I've chosen to interpret the question differently -- how much worse is the latest album than their best work?

So my answer (especially given what I note above) says more about how much I like "Exile" and "Whip-Smart" (and my indifference to, say, "Pieces of You") than whether or Liz "sold out."

mwj

Not being a fan of either singer, I think Phair is the bigger sellout because she had more credibility to begin with. I have not heard the whole album but the first single is not much to listen to. If you were a serious fan that must be pretty disappointing.

Daytripper

God, not this tired discussion again. Didn't we get enough of it in the following? The only difference between the latest Liz and her previous work is the production. It's just more polished. While her other albums were stripped down. Better? Not necessarily. But hardly a sell out. Listen to the lyrics.

http://www.dvdtalk.com/forum/showthr...hreadid=291912

evenflow

Liz Phair

dolphinboy

No, Liz Phair

I think the album is very good too. And she's not a sellout.

custom001

Sellout?

They're both popstars on major lables! How can they sell out?

(nice cover , btw )

Trigger

You can't sell out if you're already mainstream... sorry...

atlantamoi

cungar, I haven't heard the album yet. I can see how disappointing it is to you. I'm not ready to make a judgement having not listened, but I thought "Whip-Smart" was one of the better discs in the '90s. But ya know, I kind of think it's a bit "cool" what she and Jewel did. That might sound funny to say, but they are putting themselves in situations that are surprising and uncomfortable (I'm assuming). If Liz released another rock album it wouldn't have gotten as much notice and I'm not sure I would be as curious to hear it as I am this new album.

I like U2 and I loved what they did in the '90s as far as trying out new things. Granted, we aren't talking about U2 trying to emulate Backstreet Boys, but I hated that they went back a bit to a tried and true formuala with ATYCLB.

Penny Lane

this is really untrue. Then, people in this Music Forum seem to be really sensitive about the term "selling out", so I won't put it that way.
Just because music is mainstream does not mean that the artist making that music can't sacrifice artistic integrity to target different audiences than on previous records.

I can't say anything about Liz Phair, because I really haven't kept up with her at all. But I am very disappointed in the direction Jewel has taken lately. I tend to respect musicians who obviously grow artistically with each new album, regardless of what type of music is popular. Jewel has unfortunately done a 180; I love Pieces of You, and I like her two albums after that (for the most part). But this new stuff is completely unlike her. It is very obviously produced to reach a different audience than past records, and she sacrifices alot musically to do that. Call that selling out or not, but that's exactly what has happened to her.

Trigger

I appreciate what you're saying, and I hate to break it to you... but artists sell out their artistic integrity the moment they sign on the bottom line. Jewel used to play guitar and sing in coffee houses (afaik - maybe I'm thinking of someone else though) - that was the last time she had artistic integrity.

I understand what you're saying about Jewel though - however, she's always used her sexyness to sell records. Wasn't there a video from an old album that depicted her wearing a teddy in bed or something? The only thing she did was try to make a more upbeat record that people could dance to or whatever. Nothing at all wrong with that and not at all out of line with her previous work. Just because a broody band makes a happy album - that's not selling out. I honestly don't see how she's sacrificing anything at all. She's been rich for quite awhile now - my house could fit inside her foyer... lots of old fans are probably not gonna like her new image, but she'll have a whole bunch of new fans to buy tickets to her show... From day one when she broke on the scene - she's been a pre-packaged talent. If you need specifics or examples of what I'm talking about, I'd be happy to go into it.

cungar

Even though I started this thread and realize this is a divisive topic, I will add one caveat to my comment on Liz Phair's new song. The video for the song (Why Can't I) is absolutely the most original and brilliant piece of work I've seen in more than a decade.

It features a juke box that displays vintage style album covers with Liz and her band appearing in full motion on the covers. Anyone who loves vintage 50's-60's album covers will fall in love with this video instantly. And yes Liz looks hot but I'm not supposed to say that because I'm slagging her for selling out.

SAShepherd

Obviously not.

But you say that as if musical style and production were irrelevant to a discussion of "selling out." Look at Jewel -- the entire discussion of whether or not she "sold out" revolves around her decision to make a "dance" album rather than the folk-rock of her previous albums.

Again, my response to the question is of limited value because I haven't heard any of the new album. But my response is the reason why this, too, is a popular topic. (Besides the occasional picture of either artist. ) "Exile" and "Whip-Smart" are important albums to many readers here -- it's hard to accept an album that may (or may not) throw away those things that made those 2 albums great listening.

Rogue588

Yeah, watching Jewel on the recent "Divas" concert was like watching an live "Which One Of These Doesn't Belong" exercise. I think it has something to do with her first single debuting as a COMMERCIAL before it was released as a single...and then going on TRL with a video that "mocks" the very things she's doing with this latest album...

JestersTear

I think people need to learn the definition of "selling out."

Despite what morons think, it's not just having mainstream appeal. It's not even ATTEMPTING to get mainstream appeal.

"Selling out" means that you state that you are strongly against something and you will NEVER do it, and then you do it anyways because someone waved enough money under your nose.

The only true sellout that I can think of in music at the moment is Metallica, who swore that they would never dumb their music down for radio and MTV airplay, and then brought in Bob Rock with the express purpose of dumbing their music down so that they could cash in off the lucrative pop music market.

SAShepherd

Erm, no -- the underlying friction in this discussion is precisely that there is no agreement on the definition of "selling out." Nor is there any agreement on whether "selling out" is inherently a bad thing.

I don't think your definition is bad, but to consider it the only definition is, if not moronic, wrong.

But those are just my moronic thoughts.

Penny Lane

That's just not true. Your statement indicates that the moment someone is signed to a label, they stop listening to their own creative thoughts and do what someone else tells them to do, thereby compromising artistic integrity. What's the difference between the songs Jewel sang in coffee houses and the ones recorded on her first album?



I would agree with you on that point. A recent example is the Eels' new CD Shootenanny!, which is much "happier" than some of their previous efforts. I don't think they've "sold out" at all, but then they didn't change their style to sounds that are popular on Top 40 radio stations right now. Jewel did exactly this. AND she's being hypocritical about it with her new video. She's selling herself to a market that she criticizes in her own songs.

Sure, examples might show me what you mean, though by the logic of what you've posted so far, all artists are "pre-packaged."

SmackDaddy

I love these "sellout" threads everytime a musician/group changes their musical direction.

If you don't like a Liz's or Jewel's new stuff, well don't buy it or listen to it. But to judge them on what YOU think they should do is just plain silly. That's like having your favorite rock star come to your job and write a performance review for a job they've never done. Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but to judge the artist themselves without actually knowing them just doesn't hold water.

Anytime a band changes their direction/sound/whatever to something new(i.e. popular), they are instantly sellouts. For some reason fans just can't come to grips that peoples outlooks change as they get older, and in the case of musicains, it will eventually reflect in their music. Some bands never change(AC/DC for instance) and that suits them just fine.

If wanting commercial success is such a crime, then isn't everyone who wants to succeed in their field a sellout? Because I started out as a peon drafer making $8 an hour. But, I wanted more success and more money, now I'm making 4 times as much. So, color me a sellout, and I'm darn proud to be!!

BTW, I really like Liz's new CD and like her entire catalog for it's diversity. If Rush decided not to evolve after recording "I think I'm Going Bald" (off of Caress of Steel)I would have had to shoot myself!

Giantrobo

Just like Madonna, Jewel is just trying re-make herself. How come no one calls Madonna.

I don't consider her a "sell-out".

And besides,after all....IT'S A FRIGGIN' BUSINE$$.

jk4w

Where can i hear some of the new Liz Phair at on the web.Ive went to the bestbuy,media play & cdnow websites & they dont have any samples from the CD.
id like to hear it before i buy it.

Rypro 525

Check out mtv 2 or your local top 40 station.

SmackDaddy

You can listen to Why Can't I at www.lizphair.com along with a snippets from every track on the CD. I believe launch.com also has one of her new songs available for download.

dolphinboy

I promise you, that you're gonna love the album. P-R-O-M-I-S-E.

Trigger

Are you calling me a moron? Cuz that's a personal attack.

Rogue588

Quote:

Originally posted by SmackDaddy
I love these "sellout" threads everytime a musician/group changes their musical direction.

If you don't like a Liz's or Jewel's new stuff, well don't buy it or listen to it. But to judge them on what YOU think they should do is just plain silly. That's like having your favorite rock star come to your job and write a performance review for a job they've never done. Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but to judge the artist themselves without actually knowing them just doesn't hold water.

Anytime a band changes their direction/sound/whatever to something new(i.e. popular), they are instantly sellouts. For some reason fans just can't come to grips that peoples outlooks change as they get older, and in the case of musicains, it will eventually reflect in their music. Some bands never change(AC/DC for instance) and that suits them just fine.

If wanting commercial success is such a crime, then isn't everyone who wants to succeed in their field a sellout? Because I started out as a peon drafer making $8 an hour. But, I wanted more success and more money, now I'm making 4 times as much. So, color me a sellout, and I'm darn proud to be!!

Sorry...but I think if an artist [for more than three albums now] says one thing, then all of a sudden [due to the previous album's low sales] decides to do the complete opposite of what she's been doing up until then...that, to me, is selling out.

Quote:

Originally posted by Giantrobo
Just like Madonna, Jewel is just trying re-make herself. How come no one calls Madonna. I don't consider her a "sell-out". And besides,after all....IT'S A FRIGGIN' BUSINE$$.

For me, at least, they're two totally different things. Back in the 80s, the record industry was less of a "business". Nowadays, [in the age of "instant" celebrity], you have to sell a trillion copies outta the box otherwise you're considered a "failure". There's absolutely NO time for any sort of development...and, NO, eight weeks of American Idol don't count..