Batista Loses Appeal

[Ralph Wiggum]

Ridiculous:

http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/2003/0522/1557838.html

Tino Martinez should have just as many games as Batista. I can't believe LaRussa got off so easy too. :mad:

[twikoff]

ok.. one more time..
didnt we decide this is fair
tino got a 4 game suspension.. so he will miss 4 games
batista gets a 10 game suspension, which is only 2 starts

so doesnt that mean tino got a more harsh suspension?

[El Scorcho]

Its not like Batista would have pitched shutout ball in those two starts either ;)

[Ranger]

Wow, sorry that I missed that brawl, video anywhere on the net? Tino has always been one of my favorite players so I'm siding with him on this one.

[twikoff]

you missed it?
tino went out to get batista, and as he got there.. batista slung the ball at tinos face


ok.. maybe it was more like a weak toss from 3 feet away that missed.. but it sounds better the other way ;)

[Ralph Wiggum]

Originally posted by twikoff
ok.. one more time..
didnt we decide this is fair
tino got a 4 game suspension.. so he will miss 4 games
batista gets a 10 game suspension, which is only 2 starts

so doesnt that mean tino got a more harsh suspension?

Actually, it doesn't.

First of all, Tino's suspension was three games.

Pitcher's season ~ 30 starts
Position player's season ~162 starts

Do the math.

Even if Tino only gets 150 starts, his suspension is still significantly less harsh.

[Rogue588]

Originally posted by Ranger
Tino has always been one of my favorite players so I'm siding with him on this one. I agree. One of my bones of contention against Steinbrenner was his treatment of Tino..

[PixyJunket]

http://raw.wwe.com/superstars/batista/images/batista1.jpg

He plays baseball too?

[twikoff]

Originally posted by Ralph Wiggum
Actually, it doesn't.

First of all, Tino's suspension was three games.

Pitcher's season ~ 30 starts
Position player's season ~162 starts

Do the math.

Even if Tino only gets 150 starts, his suspension is still significantly less harsh.

so what would have been more fair?
a 3 game suspension for batista that they could have worked it out so he didnt even miss a start?

tino didnt do anything out of the ordinary as far as the charging situation goes.. so his punishment falls in line of what is expected

batista at least attempted to sling a baseball at tino's face from a close range.. even if it was a poor attempt and really wasnt much of a threat.. it was still an abnormal situation and deserved a harsher punishment.. Im sure the sentence was set at 10 games because they wanted to make sure it was 2 starts.. anything less than 10 games, and it could have been arranged that he technically only missed 1 start

[DarkElf]

Originally posted by twikoff
ok.. one more time..
didnt we decide this is fair
tino got a 4 game suspension.. so he will miss 4 games
batista gets a 10 game suspension, which is only 2 starts

so doesnt that mean tino got a more harsh suspension?
Actually, we didn't.

I went through the expected number of games for each player based on career numbers, and showed how the above suspension was incredibly uneven based on percentage of expected games they'd miss. I don't feel like redoing the math or hunting for my posts.

I agree that Batista should get a slightly stiffer penalty, but this is ridiculous.

[twikoff]

but the point is.. is basically either 1/2 starts or 2/3 starts
he got the 2nd one
compared to his overall number of starts in a season, it his a higher %
but would 1 have been more fair?

[shizawn]

Aren't you docked pay for each day/game your suspended? Batista would lose 10 games worth of pay even though he'd only play in 2 of those games.

The question is whether his actions were 3 times worse than Tino's.

[DarkElf]

Originally posted by twikoff
but the point is.. is basically either 1/2 starts or 2/3 starts
he got the 2nd one
compared to his overall number of starts in a season, it his a higher %
but would 1 have been more fair?

Well, in my opinion, yes. But it really all comes down to how much MORE severe you think Batista's actions were compared to Martinez. And so this is all subjective.

But basically, with this suspension, Batista percertage of missed games is more than twice that of Martinez, and I think that's crazy.

[twikoff]

ok.. from a pay basis.. it might be unfair

but the only way i can see it, is that any less than 10 games, could have been worked to only mean 1 missed start.. and i dont think 1 missed start would have been enough

[Ralph Wiggum]

Originally posted by twikoff
so what would have been more fair?
a 3 game suspension for batista that they could have worked it out so he didnt even miss a start?

tino didnt do anything out of the ordinary as far as the charging situation goes.. so his punishment falls in line of what is expected

batista at least attempted to sling a baseball at tino's face from a close range.. even if it was a poor attempt and really wasnt much of a threat.. it was still an abnormal situation and deserved a harsher punishment.. Im sure the sentence was set at 10 games because they wanted to make sure it was 2 starts.. anything less than 10 games, and it could have been arranged that he technically only missed 1 start

My problem with the uneven suspensions is that Tino's actions were clearly pre-meditated. The original HBP was unintentional and if Tino is going to charge, he has to do it immediately. It is absolutely gutless to blindside a pitcher from 2nd base after you are called out. I have no tolerance for that.

Batista threw the ball in a purely reactionary move and did not even hit him. The man was rushed from behind!

That said, Batista needs to miss one start. You just don't throw the ball like that. Period. I do think Tino deserves a proportionate suspension.

[DarkElf]

Okay, Twik, here's a different way of looking at it then.

How many times worse is Batista's actions compared to Martinez?

1.5x worse?

2x worse?

Based on your previous comment, I take it you think 3 x worse is too much...

[twikoff]

tino missed 3 starts
i expect batista to miss 2 starts

2 might be excessive in comparison.. but 1 wouldnt have been enough.. so to answer your question, in these cases, I dont think that value can really be placed

[DarkElf]

Originally posted by twikoff
tino missed 3 starts
i expect batista to miss 2 starts

2 might be excessive in comparison.. but 1 wouldnt have been enough.. so to answer your question, in these cases, I dont think that value can really be placed

-rolleyes-

Don't cop out, just answer the damn_question! Forget the suspensions - I didn't ask you about that.

How much worse was Batista's actions? This really isn't a hard question.

[Ralph Wiggum]

Originally posted by twikoff
tino missed 3 starts
i expect batista to miss 2 starts

2 might be excessive in comparison.. but 1 wouldnt have been enough.. so to answer your question, in these cases, I dont think that value can really be placed

You just placed value though...

[twikoff]

its not a cop out.. i think its silly to compare how many games they 'should' start in a season to allow batista to have a lesser punishment


i expect that the league looked at it as a worst case scenario.. in which case, it is seen as batista slinging the ball at tino's head.. this may not be the face, but in my opinion, its close enough that the league should punish him as if it is.

tino charged the mound, like many people before him.. and gets the normal punishment

batista's actions were abnormal and could be seen as much more malicious.. so they definitly deserved a harsher punishment..
any less than 10 games, could be 1 start.. 1 start would equal *at most* an even punishment.. which would not be acceptable, if it is considered that batista was throwing the ball at tinos face

[twikoff]

Originally posted by Ralph Wiggum
You just placed value though...

yep.. the value is *more*
1 would have been at most, even
and batista deserved a *more* harsh punishment.. which requires 2 starts.. only way to insure 2, is to give him 10 games

[Deftones]

Agreed, this is idiotic. He did get the fine reduced from $2500 to $1500. Yippee! -rolleyes-

As for Darkelf's and Ralph's argument, I totally agree, so there is no reason to rehash what they've said.

[DarkElf]

any less than 10 games, could be 1 start.. 1 start would equal *at most* an even punishment..

How do you figure this? He misses 1 game out of 31, Tino misses 3 out of 150. I can't see any way that this is "at most" an even punishment. Really, please explain this.

Regardless, missing 2 out of 31 games is more than THREE times the severity of missing 3 out of 150. And you previously felt that three times the severity was too much too.

I have no problem with Batista missing two starts. I do have a problem with Martinez only missing three games. The mistake here is reducing Martinez's suspension.

[twikoff]

Im not arguing that tino's suspension isnt long enough
Im arguring that batista got the proper suspension

and if your going to bother trying to do math to figure what % of their season that actually is.. why bother there.. go on and do it in innings.. batista averages what, 6 innings per start? while tino would play 9
so 2 starts = 12 innings for batista, which is only 1 1/3 games
kindof silly, isnt it

[AndyCapps]

For all I care, Tino could have gotten a 60 game suspension. He's more effective on the bench than he is behind the plate.

[DarkElf]

Originally posted by twikoff
Im not arguing that tino's suspension isnt long enough
Im arguring that batista got the proper suspension

HERE is the statement you made that I'm disputing:

"1 start would equal *at most* an even punishment"

I've already given you my reasoning why 1 missed start is still worse than Tino's 3 missed games. I'm still waiting for you to explain your statement.



and if your going to bother trying to do math to figure what % of their season that actually is.. why bother there.. go on and do it in innings.. batista averages what, 6 innings per start? while tino would play 9
so 2 starts = 12 innings for batista, which is only 1 1/3 games
kindof silly, isnt it
So you can use math to compare games missed (Tino: 3 games, Batista: 2 games) and it's okay, but if I use math to compare percentage of the season missed (Tino: 2%, Batista: 6.5%), it's silly?

And you can do it in innings if you want, but it yields the same result. But if you're going to use my method, at least do the comparison right and use percentages, not hard numbers.

[twikoff]

ok.. lets look at it much more simple then

tino charged the mound.. which is more common.. he was given the standard punishment... not much you can do to argue that

batista got in a fight.. so he at least gets the standard punishment.. but I believe he was also punished for throwing the ball at tino's head.. in which case, he earned himself a stiffer punishment.. if the standard punishment is 1 start.. than a stiffer punishment should be 2 starts

[Ralph Wiggum]

Originally posted by twikoff
ok.. lets look at it much more simple then

tino charged the mound.. which is more common.. he was given the standard punishment... not much you can do to argue that

batista got in a fight.. so he at least gets the standard punishment.. but I believe he was also punished for throwing the ball at tino's head.. in which case, he earned himself a stiffer punishment.. if the standard punishment is 1 start.. than a stiffer punishment should be 2 starts

No, Tino BLINDSIDED Batista after being called out at second base. Huge difference. If Tino had charged the mound while facing Batista and had the ball thrown at him, this would be an entirely different situation.

[DarkElf]

if the standard punishment is 1 start.. than a stiffer punishment should be 2 starts

This I agree with. Or at the very least, make it a 7 game suspension, where he misses 1 start for sure, and is forced a few days further back into the rotation, which _could_ force another missed start. Or maybe the D-Backs decide on their own that they don't want to modify the rotation and skip that 2nd start anyway.

But I guess I just don't feel you can look at each player's actions in a vacuum, which apparently the league did when they dealt with the appeals. Like Ralph, I too think Tino's actions were a little worse than the typical "get hit, get pissed, charge the mound". Tino's actions were a little gutless I thought and caught Batista by surprise. His throwing the ball at Tino was an action of self-defense. Nevertheless, he still threw an object at Tino, even if it was a Mary throw, and deserves a stiffer penalty. But Tino's actions should have been stiffer than usual as well.

I think MLB assessed the suspensions at the same time (and I think they were lopsided then), but should have dealt with the appeals together as well. But I especially think it was wrong to reduce Tino's suspension without reducing Batista's.

But these are all the subjective arguments, just our opinions.

I was attempting to look at the suspensions in a way that eliminated opinions. Basing it purely on numbers, I still maintain that the suspensions were lopsided, which then forces the discussion whether the severity of the actions of the two players were as lopsided as the suspensions.

Our main disagreement is whether Batista missing 1 start is worse than Tino missing 3 games. If it helps, keep Batista at missing 2 starts, but to keep the same ratio, consider Tino missing 6 games. Same ratio, and both suspensions are stiffer than the typical "charge the mound" affair. 6/10 seems much more fair to me. Batista still misses a greater percentage of games, but at least the disparity is within reason.

But this is probably my last post on this since I really don't give a damn about either player. :)