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DVD Reviews

View Full Version : Buffy 3/25/03


Tom Banjo
03-24-03, 08:42 PM
7.17 - "Lies My Parents Told Me"

I thought I'd start this one little early as a reminder that we've finally got a new episode this week after a one-month hiatus.

TV Guide says:
The Scoobies' failure to nullify the First's hold on Spike inspires Wood to pursue a vendetta as the vampire relives the day his soul was taken away.

Bcolon
03-24-03, 09:08 PM
Anybody know when the seasons big guest star returns?? I was hoping Angel and Buffy were chronologically aligned so that it would be this week, but it does not sound like it from that description.

How many new episodes left?

Tom Banjo
03-24-03, 09:19 PM
In tomorrow's episode, Willow gets a call from Fred and says she has to leave to few days. So... this episode actually takes place before the last 3 eps of Angel. Next week she should return with Faith.

Rypro 525
03-24-03, 09:23 PM
and the entire angel cast will be in the series finale

WiccanPagan
03-24-03, 11:38 PM
must not highlight spoilers that i know are about eliza dushku's return to the show. will post thoughts tomorrow after (or if) it airs.

khieng
03-25-03, 04:52 AM
Rypro.... really? That would be so cool if it happens.

movieking
03-25-03, 06:13 AM
Since this airs on Monday where I live, I already saw it. I will spoiler, even though I won't give any specific plot points:

I have to say that it was pretty dissapointing, IMO. With so few episodes left, I was hoping that this would be an action filled and plot driven show, but to me, very little of either happened.

This is the impression that I got from the ending of the show, so while not a real spoiler, I will spoil it just in case:

To me, the most surprising thing is that Buffy is starting to come off as very unlikeable (to me anyway, mostly because of Spike). I don't know if it is just me, or some kind of character angle, which would be strange considering how close the end is.

Rogue588
03-25-03, 04:51 PM
Good ep.

Compared to Angel [Based on some of the season 3 eps and other various things i've seen], I really didn't care for Spike that much. Tonite's ep changed that. Made him [in my eyes] more tragic.

I liked the whole "trigger, chip, soul" exchange. :lol:

The end of Giles' conversation gave me a little bit of a chill...[considering our current world situation]

:up: Andrew: "Willow, call for you from LA..somebody named Fred..guy sounds effeminate."

Willow: "Maybe i'll bring back some good news.." We know what that good news will be, huh? :D

Remember..it's all about the mission..

And..Bcolon, I coulda sworn I saw a promo saying nine hours of Buffy left..but that would make 25 eps total. And since a season is [most times] 22 eps that would mean only five left..but, I could be wrong..feel free to correct me. :)

retihsuhnt
03-25-03, 07:19 PM
Rypro, huh? The only character/actor thus far guaranteed to be in the series finale of BTVS is Mr. David Boreanaz.

costanza187
03-25-03, 09:12 PM
And..Bcolon, I coulda sworn I saw a promo saying nine hours of Buffy left..but that would make 25 eps total. And since a season is [most times] 22 eps that would mean only five left..but, I could be wrong..feel free to correct me. :) [/B]

at the end of tonights episode...they said 8....and yea, I too am thinking is my math a little off, or this season gonna be longer than 22 eps

Dr. DVD
03-25-03, 09:19 PM
So when is the next new episode?

Great episode, lots of deep meaning for the characters IMO. More later.

Pointyskull
03-25-03, 09:40 PM
Originally posted by Rogue588
I coulda sworn I saw a promo saying nine hours of Buffy left


UPN is touting 8 final "weeks", which could mean only 5-6 episodes if we're lucky.............

lisadoris
03-25-03, 10:13 PM
Originally posted by movieking
This is the impression that I got from the ending of the show, so while not a real spoiler, I will spoil it just in case:

To me, the most surprising thing is that Buffy is starting to come off as very unlikeable (to me anyway, mostly because of Spike). I don't know if it is just me, or some kind of character angle, which would be strange considering how close the end is.

After watching this episode I have to agree with this assessment
The end exchange with Giles where Buffy says "I've learned everything I need to know from you" was just offputting. So was the final conversation between her and Wood. I'm hoping that her decision to keep Spike with her comes around and bites her in the ass at the end of the series. She's giving lectures about no personal issues but the only real reason Spike is still around is because of personal reasons.

Interesting episode overall. Did the previews for next week look like a rerun to anyone else or was it just me.

RaraFemina
03-25-03, 10:41 PM
Originally posted by lisadoris
Did the previews for next week look like a rerun to anyone else or was it just me.


Yes, it's a rerun. It's "Sleeper", the one when we see Spike meet the woman in the bar and then takes her back to her house for a "bite".

lwhy?
03-25-03, 10:53 PM
I enjoyed this episode and the insight into Spike's background. I think Buffy is through with Giles now.

Derrich
03-25-03, 11:33 PM
The Spike stuff was good.

Buffy on the other hand... Are they trying to turn her into a bitch on purpose? The entire point about her being alone in her mission/duty goes against the previous shows. All of a sudden no one else matters? By any logic whatsoever, she should have killed Spike a long time ago and by not doing so (and threatening the Principal) makes her look like a hypocrite.

D

nny
03-25-03, 11:49 PM
I don't see why Buffy should kill Spike. If they're really worried about Spike turning on them against the First, they could send him to help Angel. Spike's done more to redeem himself than Anya, Willow, or Andrew have.

Jlbkwrm
03-26-03, 12:20 AM
Originally posted by Rogue588
And..Bcolon, I coulda sworn I saw a promo saying nine hours of Buffy left..but that would make 25 eps total. And since a season is [most times] 22 eps that would mean only five left..but, I could be wrong..feel free to correct me. :)

Misleading promo. They said eight weeks, which is true, but three of those weeks will be reruns. Tonight was episode 18, and there will be 22 episodes this season.

The episode was not good for me.

I needed another Spike-centric episode like I needed another BuffySpeech. Last episode was about Andrew, this one about Spike. Xander hasn't had an episode about him for a long, long time. This is horribly unfair.

Worst line of the episode:

Buffy: "The trigger's not active anymore."

The whole Willow situation was odd. She tells Buffy she has to go somewhere, no details, and Buffy's not curious?

Gee. Nice to see Spike's a nice, compassionate guy. Find out you killed a guy's mom, tell him you killed a bunch of mothers. Nice to see a soul doesn't get in the way of being callous and glib.

I didn't think it was possible to dislike Spike more than I did, but this episode made him completely unsympathetic. His big, noble gesture is not killing someone? The fact that he bit Wood, instead of just beating him up, doesn't sit well with me.

Buffy's on the way there herself. Before she finds out Spike's cured, she declares him untouchable. She refuses to see any fault in Spike. She brushes off Giles. And her character is now All. About. Spike. Blah.

I'm foolishly hoping Buffy's refusal to let go of Spike is related to her lingering issues with Angel. She has a new souled vampire who might not be quite as nice or good as the last one, but at least this one will never leave her--Not for her own good, not for anyone's own good.

Tom Banjo
03-26-03, 12:26 AM
Off topic, but I just thought of something that, IMHO, could make a cool possible spin-off...
It would center around Wood, with him as part of some special teams unit of the Initiative. I know a lot of people aren't too fond of Wood or the Initiative, but I think it could have potential, no pun intended.

spainlinx0
03-26-03, 01:20 AM
Buffy gets more and more unlikeable to me every week. I'm referring to the character not the show. She has never been the best at making important decisions before, but this was horrendous. I understand keeping Spike around because he's a good fighter, but there was absolutely NO need to remove the chains before they knew the trigger issue was resolved. I hope someone beats the living crap out of her for being so idiotic this season.

please Faith knock some sense into her

nny
03-26-03, 02:15 AM
I thought the threat of Spike killing Wood before the commercial break was so ridiculous. But I will say, Angel took nearly a hundred years to come to terms with his soul. Spike's had his for less than a year.

MrN
03-26-03, 03:13 AM
I hope we seem more of Spike unleashed because Spike-with-a-soul is just an Angel retread.

I'm glad that Wood story is done - I was bored with its long shelf life. Hopefully this where the rousing finish starts.

Not enough Xander or Jonathan in this one so it was mediocre for me - and the Buffy 'attitude' is kinda off.

Is next week's re-run the one where Spike sleeps with Anya?

Derrich
03-26-03, 06:50 AM
Originally posted by nny
I don't see why Buffy should kill Spike. If they're really worried about Spike turning on them against the First, they could send him to help Angel. Spike's done more to redeem himself than Anya, Willow, or Andrew have.

Buffy has far less sympathy for Anya or Andrew. Andrew killed a lot less people than Spike, and unlike spike, he has remorse. Spike was killing women as little as a few weeks ago. Just this week he knocked Buffy's sister around. Last year he tried to rape Buffy. But since he can throw a good punch he's safe to keep around? Especially without the chip in his head.

Anya was right when she said that Spike has a magical 'get out of jail free' card that doesn't apply to anyone else.

D

Chew
03-26-03, 07:09 AM
Originally posted by Rogue588
:up: Andrew: "Willow, call for you from LA..somebody named Fred..guy sounds effeminate."

Loved that line.

Buffy also said something to the effect that Spike is the most powerful weapon they have. Don't suppose Willow might have something to say about it?

costanza187
03-26-03, 07:18 AM
I understand why Buffy doesnt want to kill Spike, he is cool!

sabre
03-26-03, 07:40 AM
Someone, anyone, please stake Spike.
This show lost me when spike and buffy got involved. Poor Andrew he killed one person under the influence of the firstand he is considered evil, willow ripped the skin off someone but she is okay, but spike he can munch on people right and left, almost rape buffy but he is still a great guy and we need him.
It makes no sense. Buffy is al of sudden the mission matters, whole concept of the show has been her friends give her strength and have kept her alive unlike most other slayers. I am so glad this show is going off the air. I am a long time buffy fan but the last couple of seasons have been terrible with a few exceptions. Poor xander his character has become nothing more than stupid comic relief. buffy is becoming truly detestable, both the character and the show. But i am look forward to faith returning, i can only hope she stakes spike. It has never made sense why buffy did not stake spike.

rennervision
03-26-03, 07:50 AM
For some reason, my Replay TV decided I would much rather watch a rerun of Friends on NBC rather than the first new episode of Buffy for the past few weeks. So now that I've come to terms with this and am ready to get on with my life, can anyone be so kind as to elaborate what exactly happened between Buffy and Giles last night?

costanza187
03-26-03, 08:55 AM
I just have a question...I'll go ahead and put spoiler tags on it, although I doubt that is really necessary, but

Do you think that Buffy's relationship with Giles will never be the same? or will she get over it pretty quick?

Chew
03-26-03, 09:14 AM
Originally posted by costanza187
I just have a question...I'll go ahead and put spoiler tags on it, although I doubt that is really necessary, but

Do you think that Buffy's relationship with Giles will never be the same? or will she get over it pretty quick?

Considering there's only a small handful of episodes left in the whole series, I'd say the former in your question is a pretty good bet.

Patman
03-26-03, 09:28 AM
Okay, Giles-Buffy (major spoilers on the episode plot points):

Robin comes clean to Giles, and Giles has misgivings about Spike with the trigger still in his head to be a weapon for the First, so with mutual cross-purposes, Giles agrees to stall Buffy with a patrol in the graveyard in the guise of more "training", while Robin lures Spike into his "sanctuary" so Robin can stake Spike, but Spike comes to grips with the memories of the mother he vamped and subsequently staked because he realized that it wasn't really his mother in the renewed body of his mother, and this is what allows Spike to finally understand that he didn't really "stake" his mother, but the demon inside of her vamped body.

Robin and Spike fight, but Spike gets the best of Robin, almost drains him of his blood, but lets him live. During the fight, Buffy gets the "you can't just act like the general, you have to BE the general" talk with Giles, and how hard decisions will have to be made, and people will become expendable in this coming war. Buffy then realizes that Giles is talking about doing away with Spike, and that Giles has been stalling her while Robin is trying to stake Spike.

Buffy finds Spike leaving Robin's "sanctuary", with Robin almost dead, but still alive. Spike gets his point across to Robin (more or less). Spike exits stage right. Buffy helps Robin get back on his feet.

Later that night, at Buffy's house, Giles and Buffy run into each other, Buffy is not too pleased with Giles' attempt to have Spike dusted behind her back. Giles is not too concerned about the failed attempt, and starts to blather on about how he still has things to teach Buffy, and that's when Buffy's heard enough and tells him that. Fade to credits.

Patman
03-26-03, 09:31 AM
BTW, this episode was sort of patch-worked together with the revelations of the psychology of Spike/William, and how his relationship with his mother impacted his worldview, with Buffy having to grow up faster in a leadership role that she was put into by circumstances, but now has to step up and actually BE the leader, given Giles' duplicity with Robin.

Spike is now having to live with consequences now that he's been imbued with a soul. There's some form of an internal compass that now gives him pause for his actions, and makes him accountable for his actions from the time he has now been rid of the influence of the First, and his past. I'd treat this development as a new start for Spike, not necessarily his redemption, either.

rennervision
03-26-03, 10:04 AM
Thanks Patman. Man, I wish I saw this one. Why couldn't I have missed the one that was Andrew's home movies instead? Why? Why?!?

OK - I feel better now. -smile-

writteninstars
03-26-03, 11:05 AM
A few thoughts:

Several people have analyzed this episode and found it lacking. Bah. They certainly have a right to have not enjoyed it, but I am on the total opposite end of that spectrum. I loved it! For one thing, Spike came into his own again last night. See: fight w/ Wood. That is a beautiful thing to behold. Also, there is Buffy's staunch defense of Spike throughout the entire episode. She never doubts him. Not even once. Makes my poor heart go all pitter-patter.

Giles. I never doubted his capacity to distrust Spike, but I *never* thought he would hurt Buffy like that again. Not after his betrayal in "Helpless". I do not one little bit blame her for being angry with him, but I do hope they resolve it before the very end. I would hate for one or both of them to die with that chasm between them. (That is not a spoiler. I have no knowledge of any deaths. I just know Buffy and Joss).

I loved Xander patting Spike on the back after he chains him up. (Hmm. That sounds slashy, but you know what I mean.) It was something one would do to a friend, not a sworn enemy. I don't know what it is about these two in particular, but I've always wanted them to be friends. I don't know why I would think they'd be able to get to that point, but it's a desire of mine and last night's pat was a tiny morsel for my hope chest.

I disagree with Spike in that just because Nikki had a sacred duty to protect the world, it didn't mean she didn't love her son. She did place him second, that's true, but she also loved him. And now I'm envisioning a vastly pregnant Nikki battling vamps. That's kind of funny.

The only time I have *ever* *ever* liked Dru was last night..."You want to bring your mum with us?" Loved it.

And finally, at long last, my favorite part: "I know slayers". And how!

~wis

retihsuhnt
03-26-03, 11:51 AM
"Not enough Xander or Jonathan in this one so it was mediocre for me - and the Buffy 'attitude' is kinda off. "

I must have missed something because Jonathan died a while ago, Im just guessing that he/she meant Andrew.

Chad
03-26-03, 01:13 PM
Originally posted by sabre
Poor xander his character has become nothing more than stupid comic relief.

That really ticks me off, as he is an essential part of the show...seems like he gets less and less respect each season. I'd be all for a spinoff with Xander as the lead character. :up:

Originally posted by costanza187
I just have a question...I'll go ahead and put spoiler tags on it, although I doubt that is really necessary, but

Do you think that Buffy's relationship with Giles will never be the same? or will she get over it pretty quick?

I read over at AICN it was rumored that Giles was originally supposed to disclose to Buffy his role in Benís death from season 5. Just doesn't make much sense to reveal that in the final few episodes, would probably put an even greater strain on their relationship.

BTW, only 5 more episodes left until the series finale! That's hard to comprehend.

Dr. DVD
03-26-03, 04:13 PM
In a way, this episode focused on two guys whose lives were greatly impacted by their mothers. Both of them relied heavily upon their matriarchs for support and both suffered in life because of their desire to have an ideal relationship with them.

What I found most interesting: Spike sired his mom after he was turned himself, but yet he still had the desire to keep her in his life. Once his "mom" turned on him, he truly began to express remorse and have his feelings hurt. My question: if vampires are devoid of souls, how are they able to feel genuine remorse and pain? This case seems unique with Spike.

WiccanPagan
03-26-03, 05:11 PM
i'd like to thank people for all the soiler tags in the thread. best usage i have seen so far. couldn't resist not highlighting them all, but hey it was my fault. glad to see thatangel will be coming back. would there be any chance of him dying in the last ep that way ending both shows?just a thought. last night's episode was dull. don't need to see wood or spike that much. they strayed away from all my favorite characters (at current, willow, andrew, xander, and anya), and left us with innane dribble. here's to hoping that the series ends much better than this episode :beer:

Tanaraq
03-26-03, 06:33 PM
Did anybody else think William's mention of Dr. Gull was a reference of some kind to Alan Moore's From Hell where a Dr. Gull was Jack the Ripper. I doubt they were implying it was the same Dr. Gull but I thought it was a neat tip of the hat to fans of the graphic novel.

CaptainMarvel
03-26-03, 07:11 PM
Originally posted by Tanaraq
Did anybody else think William's mention of Dr. Gull was a reference of some kind to Alan Moore's From Hell where a Dr. Gull was Jack the Ripper. I doubt they were implying it was the same Dr. Gull but I thought it was a neat tip of the hat to fans of the graphic novel.

I thought the exact same thing. I'm pretty sure it was deliberate. Gull just doesn't seem that common a name.

clemente
03-26-03, 10:07 PM
Originally posted by WiccanPagan
i'd like to thank people for all the soiler tags in the thread. best usage i have seen so far.

soiler tags....hehehehe.

If someone didn't use them some people would soil there pants in anger.

:)

Draven
03-27-03, 12:01 AM
Gotta point out that since Angel was let off the hook for all the stuff he did as Angelus (like killing Ms. Calender) then Spike shouldn't be held accountable for anything he did before he got his soul.

I liked this episode, but once again, it was too little, too late. They needed to get this stuff moving earlier in the season.

Jlbkwrm
03-27-03, 12:22 AM
Originally posted by Draven
Gotta point out that since Angel was let off the hook for all the stuff he did as Angelus (like killing Ms. Calender) then Spike shouldn't be held accountable for anything he did before he got his soul.

Angel feels guilt over his past murders. Spike doesn't. That's a world of difference to me. Angel is actively seeking redemption. Spike wants it on a silver platter, and the soul is his excuse. He doesn't even claim to be a different person, now. Just that he doesn't do it anymore, on account of the soul, so all should be forgiven. Angel never would have told Wood, "I killed a lot of people's mothers."

Plus, he's shown no guilt for the murders this season when he had a soul--Yeah, the First was controlling him, but upon finding that out, he did nothing to assure the safety of the rest of the world. He just ran around the town (and Buffy let him, which was horrible of her), just a couple of bars of music away from killing a bunch of people.

WiccanPagan
03-27-03, 12:44 AM
clemente said
Originally posted by WiccanPagan
i'd like to thank people for all the soiler tags in the thread. best usage i have seen so far.
soiler tags....hehehehe.

If someone didn't use them some people would soil there pants in anger.

:) ah, yes let's pick on the typo-person day. i always love this day. it's oh so enjoyable. SOIL YOU!!! ;)

Draven
03-27-03, 01:25 AM
Originally posted by Jlbkwrm
Angel never would have told Wood, "I killed a lot of people's mothers."

Actually, he has said similar things on "Angel" before. Especially when pushed into a fight.

I hate Spike with the heat of a 1000 suns, but his actions fit with his personality.

I am just saying that the rape should be a non-issue, since soul=good for Buffyverse vampires. I dont' remember Angel apologizing to Giles for killing Jenny or torturing him for that matter. He said something like "that wasn't me" I believe.

Not that different. And Spike IS fighting the good fight, so in his own petulant, childish way he is helping to atone for what he did.

Jlbkwrm
03-27-03, 02:02 AM
Originally posted by Draven
Actually, he has said similar things on "Angel" before. Especially when pushed into a fight.

I'm not saying he wouldn't say those things at all, just that he never would have said them to Wood. That situation is one in which saying "I killed a lot of people's mothers." is extremely cruel. Closest comparison I can come up with is when Angel meets up with Holtz for the first time. His response isn't "Yeah, I killed your family. I killed a lot of people's families." His response is, "There's no justice for the things I did to you."

Angel displays regret over killing, Spike does not.

I hate Spike with the heat of a 1000 suns, but his actions fit with his personality.

Totally with you on the hate, now. The personality is part of my problem. He's acting too much like no-soul Spike for the "Souled now!" argument to work with me.

I am just saying that the rape should be a non-issue, since soul=good for Buffyverse vampires. I dont' remember Angel apologizing to Giles for killing Jenny or torturing him for that matter. He said something like "that wasn't me" I believe.

The only clear Giles and Angel memory I have from season three is from Amends. In it, he asks Giles for help, while admitting he has no right to do so. No outright apology, but definitely feeling the guilt. He might have used that argument at another time, but he didn't brush his actions as Angelus off as nothing (Going so far as to say he deserved to suffer in a hell dimension for eternity for what he's done.)

zero
03-27-03, 02:15 AM
Another great episode, the last minutes had me on the edge of my seat. Cant wait to see what happens next. :)

Original Desmond
03-27-03, 07:43 PM
I loved seeing Spike beat on Principal Wood ! and i was marking out when Buffy said that if he tried anything again, Spike would kill him and Buffy would let him !

great way overall to end the spike/wood feud

like the tension between Buffy and Giles, should prove interesting

Andrew answering the phone from Fred was cool, glad they aired this ep after the willow appearing on angel ep

wendersfan
03-28-03, 10:50 AM
Originally posted by Jlbkwrm
Angel feels guilt over his past murders. Spike doesn't. That's a world of difference to me. Angel is actively seeking redemption. Spike wants it on a silver platter, and the soul is his excuse. He doesn't even claim to be a different person, now. Just that he doesn't do it anymore, on account of the soul, so all should be forgiven. Angel never would have told Wood, "I killed a lot of people's mothers."


But Angel was given back his soul without asking, whereas Spike actually went through a lot to get his back, knowing what it would mean. You don't think that counts for something? Because Spike doesn't feel guilt doesn't mean he doesn't realize he commited evil, it just means he realizes he was a different "person" then, and can look past what he did.

To me, the fact Spike consciously tried to make himself "worthy" counts a lot more than Angel being given back his soul against his will.

tasha99
03-28-03, 11:03 AM
On the last Angel,
Angel made it clear he didn't think he was responsible for what Angelus did. So maybe Spike just figured that out faster.

tasha

Josh-da-man
03-28-03, 11:15 AM
Just because someone has a soul doesn't mean they're not capable of evil.

There's really nothing stopping Angel from being Angelus except his conscience. The soul doesn't prevent him from killing - HE does.

I think Spike is still dangerous. He's a romantic; he idealizes things like people and relationships. God forbid he should be disappointed in something. He's also not bound by the laws of men.

I sort of have to wonder what his reaction will be when Angel shows up in the future.

The last time they were together, there was a romantic rivalry for Drusilla's affections, which ended in a betrayal.

It's always about a girl, isn't it?

Jlbkwrm
03-28-03, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by wendersfan
To me, the fact Spike consciously tried to make himself "worthy" counts a lot more than Angel being given back his soul against his will.

But it can't work both ways. If Spike gets credit for what he did pre-soul (deciding to get a soul), he also has to shoulder the blame for what he did pre-soul (hundreds of murders, trying to rape Buffy). If Spike-with-Soul should be treated as an entirely seperate entity, then he doesn't get credit or blame. Both of those would go to NoSoulSpike, who no longer exists.

Originally posted by tasha99
On the last Angel,
Angel made it clear he didn't think he was responsible for what Angelus did. So maybe Spike just figured that out faster.

Serious question: What happened? I can't remember that at all, and now it's going to bug me until I find out what happened. Angel has always seperated himself from Angelus, but he's also always had guilt. He may have known he couldn't control what Angelus did, but since Angelus is a part of him, he feels responsible.

MrX
03-28-03, 05:59 PM
Just got around to watching this ep, thought it was ok.

Dru's reaction to Spike wanting to bring his mother along was funny.

Not enough Andrew and Anya.

tasha99
03-28-03, 10:04 PM
Originally posted by Jlbkwrm


Serious question: What happened? I can't remember that at all, and now it's going to bug me until I find out what happened. Angel has always seperated himself from Angelus, but he's also always had guilt. He may have known he couldn't control what Angelus did, but since Angelus is a part of him, he feels responsible.

You know, I feel pretty stupid now, but I think he said he didn't feel guilty because Angelus didn't really do anything (he didn't kill Lilah--just the beast and some vampires.) I don't know--I watched it at 3 am and have already deleted it on my Tivo, so I might be wrong. I'm sure someone will set me straight if I am.

CTGuyInTX
03-28-03, 11:50 PM
I'm surprised no one has mentioned it yet, but didn't Buffy say to Giles that knowing what she knows now she would be willing to sacrifice Dawn if it meant saving the world? Combine this with Dawn's message from Joyce earlier in the season: "When the time comes, Buffy won't choose you" and it looks like Dawn won't be around for any spin-offs.

Brian_92gsr
03-29-03, 01:21 AM
Originally posted by CTGuyInTX
I'm surprised no one has mentioned it yet, but didn't Buffy say to Giles that knowing what she knows now she would be willing to sacrifice Dawn if it meant saving the world? Combine this with Dawn's message from Joyce earlier in the season: "When the time comes, Buffy won't choose you" and it looks like Dawn won't be around for any spin-offs.

But wasn't Joyce just the First. I know Willow was talking to the First in that episode. I haven't seen the episode in a while, but the conversation with Joyce involved a lot of wind and objects blowing around, which doesn't seem like something the First can do.

CaptainMarvel
03-29-03, 01:53 AM
Originally posted by Brian_92gsr
But wasn't Joyce just the First. I know Willow was talking to the First in that episode. I haven't seen the episode in a while, but the conversation with Joyce involved a lot of wind and objects blowing around, which doesn't seem like something the First can do.

I don't know... remember, Joyce was being attacked by something evil-looking.

Although it could be possible that the evil-looking thing was actually good, or it could be possible that the thing and Joyce were both evil

Dr. DVD
03-29-03, 11:39 PM
My thinking for the last episode is this...

I think that Faith will be the one who gives her life. If you follow the comic book Fray, which is written by Joss Whedon, then it speaks of how the slayer gave her life to stop a war. Many people interpret this as Buffy dying, but the truth is Faith is the REAL slayer, at least as far as the rules go. Then again, that would rely on Joss Whedon keeping with his continuity, and that seldom happens. :(

Also, does anyone else foresee Faith maybe pulling a little rank on Buffy when she gets to Sunnydale? Buffy is letting her judgment get clouded, and Faith is the real slayer as far as storylines go.

zero
03-29-03, 11:50 PM
Originally posted by Dr. DVD
My thinking for the last episode is this...

I think that Faith will be the one who gives her life. If you follow the comic book Fray, which is written by Joss Whedon, then it speaks of how the slayer gave her life to stop a war. Many people interpret this as Buffy dying, but the truth is Faith is the REAL slayer, at least as far as the rules go. Then again, that would rely on Joss Whedon keeping with his continuity, and that seldom happens. :(

Also, does anyone else foresee Faith maybe pulling a little rank on Buffy when she gets to Sunnydale? Buffy is letting her judgment get clouded, and Faith is the real slayer as far as storylines go.

Well the way Buffy has been acting lately, she (Buffy) feels that she is THE slayer. Faith returning will only cause a small rift in the group of potentials who will look at Faith as the substitute teacher. All in all this should make for an itneresting build up.

Mourn
03-30-03, 12:46 AM
I personally enjoyed this episode a lot more than most this season; no whiny children getting on my nerves.

Angel feels guilt over his past murders. Spike doesn't. That's a world of difference to me. Angel is actively seeking redemption. Spike wants it on a silver platter, and the soul is his excuse. He doesn't even claim to be a different person, now. Just that he doesn't do it anymore, on account of the soul, so all should be forgiven. Angel never would have told Wood, "I killed a lot of people's mothers."


I don't recall Spike ever saying or suggesting he wanted redemption or forgiveness; the way i remember it, he wanted Buffy and he thought he needed a soul to get her. It was never about making amends, simply a means to an end.

He was temporarily driven mad by The First, but once he became himself he wasn't racked with guilt. I personally prefer it this way because this way he isn't just an Angel clone. I see it like this, a soul makes it so that one is able to be good, but doesn't necesarily mean that they will be since people with souls can be just as evil. Spike is skirting the line between good and evil and is doing it of his own free will and i personally enjoy it.

That's one thing i don't really get about the Angelus/Angel thing in recent episodes (i've missed some of them so i could be wrong), how come Angel and Angelus have different memories now?

zero
03-30-03, 01:59 AM
Originally posted by Mourn
I personally enjoyed this episode a lot more than most this season; no whiny children getting on my nerves.




I don't recall Spike ever saying or suggesting he wanted redemption or forgiveness; the way i remember it, he wanted Buffy and he thought he needed a soul to get her. It was never about making amends, simply a means to an end.

He was temporarily driven mad by The First, but once he became himself he wasn't racked with guilt. I personally prefer it this way because this way he isn't just an Angel clone. I see it like this, a soul makes it so that one is able to be good, but doesn't necesarily mean that they will be since people with souls can be just as evil. Spike is skirting the line between good and evil and is doing it of his own free will and i personally enjoy it.

That's one thing i don't really get about the Angelus/Angel thing in recent episodes (i've missed some of them so i could be wrong), how come Angel and Angelus have different memories now?

I dont think Angelus has different memories, I think its just that he sees things differently than Angel. Yes Spike was driven mad by the first, but if you recall his chest was scarred because he tried to tear his heart out due to the guilt he was experiencing (least thats how I see it). After Buffy rescued him he was lacking the edge he had when he was evil. He has his edge again, but I think he does feel guilt, just because he isnt brooding every waking moment doesnt mean he isnt feeling bad.