atari2600

it was on tnt the other night and ive never seen it before, but i caught the last 20-30 minutes or so...i figure seeing it all would help plus i bet they edit out alot on tv (very gory and dark movie), but i have a few questions:

1. was his wifes head really in the box?

2. what did morgan freeman mean when he said if he shoots him he will win? i get that spacey was "envy" but how does vengance work? brad pitt doesnt die.

thanks.

WiccanPagan

1. yeah. the dvd has the extra scenes regarding the ending. though even in the regular version you don't see the head.

2. i am pretty sure that spacy was betting that pitt would get death, though it would be manslaughter at most and that doesn't get death in any state.

audrey

It doesn’t matter if Pitt’s character dies (which, given the circumstances would be extremely unlikely); Spacy wins because Pitt kills him out of vengeance.

NiCK Crush

yea audrey is right...

you guys are thinkin about it all wrong. it doesnt matter what happens to Pitt... the fact that he killed Spacey is what made Spacey the "winner"

WiccanPagan

but spacey's whole deal was punishing those who were the sinners. if pitt was vengeance he was not punished.

tofu

isn't he already punished because his wife is dead and because he was arrested for killing the suspect?

WiccanPagan

well pitt's punishment doesn't fit the pattern that spacey laid out. he was punishing by death. the fat guy, the lawyer, the prostitute, the vain girl, and the guy who was still kinda alive. they were all punished by death. though the really skinny gross looking guy was a failed attempt.

i do see where you are coming from, though, tofu. i would see the death of my future husband/wife and my unborn child as much more of a punishment than my own death, but it still doesn't fit.

atari2600

thats exactly what i was thinking WP.

pitt wasnt punished because of vengence the same way everyone else was. its just not the same as the other 6.

he was punished out of spaceys 'envy'. but spacey was killed by pitts vengence.

Kudama

He wasn’t using death at all. His concern was attrition. It was the suffering! Somerset spells that out in the flick!

The fact of wrath (as opposed to envy) being the final one on Doe’s list is irrelevant. His job was done. I mean, could he be sure that “pride” would take the sleeping pills?

This movie is a masterpiece. I forgot Doe’s quote exactly, but: : ”This will be mulled over and talked about for years to come.”

BTW, please watch this uncut (letterboxed if you get a chance).

Cusm

My problem with it is that the wife is an innocent. Doe's whole point was punishing the guilty of the 7 deadly sins. He killed someone that was innocent of the big 7 to punish Pitt, this does not coincide with his MO.

audrey

I think it fits perfectly. Tracy is irrelevant—innocent, guilty, or in-between, she does not factor into the equation. Tracy is not being punished; rather, John Doe kills her because he envies David Mills’ life with her, which in turn sets in motion his own punishment via David’s vengeance.

Ketamine

I don't think his point was to punish the guilty of the 7 deadly sins as much as his point is that the world should see how sinful it has become. Since he completed his masterpiece, people from all over the world will be talking about it. As a result, I would guess that people would be much less likely to commit a deadly sin for fear of punishment.

sherm42

I doubt any jury would convict Pitt's character of 1st degree murder. They would probably see it as temporary insanity. If ever that defense could be used, this would be the time.

majorjoe23

Pitt wouldn't get convicted of first degree murder, but he would die in jail, that's probably what Spacey's character was counting on. Cops aren't generally well regarded in prison.

TheMadMonk

I don't think Pitt's character would even get put in jail. Cops stick together, and they would make a story where it was self-defense or something. If they even had to.

Dah-Dee

I don't think Pitt would have been jailed; I think it more likely he would have been sent to a mental ward somewhere and, if charged and tried for Spacey's death, would have been found inncocent by reason of temporary insanity. At worst he might have been subsequently hospitalized for some relatively short period of time. He saw his wife's head, flipped out. Who wouldn't, especially with the killer there cackling about it?

WiccanPagan

kudama: thanks for that explanation suffering makes much more sense than death as punishment in regard to the movie. it had been a long time since watching the movie and did not recall the bit about the sufering of the victims. regarding suffering, you are dead on, i don't think there is anyone out there that could possibly feel more suffering than pitt's character at the end.

ot, so what about the freeman only sequel?

Nick Danger

Let's see: Pitt's wife and unborn child are dead, his career is likely ruined, and his face will be on the evening news for a week and tabloid TV for years.

devilshalo

He never saw Tracey's head.. it was all speculation on his part. Somerset and John Doe were the only ones to truly know and he reacted off of their reactions.

SunMonkey

Ok. First, this is just a movie, so it doesn't really have to make perfect sense.

That said, don't forget the John Doe's plans were thrown assunder when he was nearly nabbed by Summerset and Mills, leading him to probably impromise in order to complete the deadly sin leason.