Kerborus

I think most of your are overlooking one major issue in your distaste for the pricing of ST:TNG, X-Files and HBO (Sopranos) DVD's - QUALITY.

The quality of these series, if nothing else, combined with the extras and the content make the prices higher than say - Buffy or Babylon 5. The quality of the writing, filming, etc. is just not as good...

It's the same thing as saying Why is the Godfather 1-3 so much more than The Toxic Avenger 1-3? I'm outraged!!

Anyhow, I'm not sure where Grunter was going, but TOS in box set is the way to go... If someone wants a couple episodes to watch then they can watch them on syndicated re-runs or with TV. Box sets for series are for people who like the entire show. If I were Paramount, I'd market to the fans of the show, not someone who wants a couple of episodes and couldn't care less about the rest... If people like Grunter don't have the money for the series, I guess they could save their pennies, or skip it altogether. I'd like a Jaguar, but I can't afford one... Does this mean that the car dealership should make me buy a few pieces of it at a cheaper price until I get the pieces I want? Nah...

Surf Monkey

I disagree when it comes to Buffy. The writing on Buffy is (or was depending on your perspective) on par with the best written shows. The quality of the video may be lower but I hardly see that as a limiting factor. Look at Dr. Who for example. Collecting seasons of Who is going to be at least as expensive as TOS is now. I'm not happy about the 600 plus dollars I spend on TOS and in retrospect it was probably a mistake but I would upgrade in a heart beat if the price, packaging and extras were right.

Kerborus

Not to offend, but my fiance' has forced me to watch Buffy before, and it is very gleefully hokey!

It has a vampire with a microchip in his head and he built a robot buffy to have sex with... Also, the acting cannot be said to hold a candle to any of the series I quoted above... And the plots are loose and yadda yadda...

Again, I'm not slamming it, but it just is a different level of writing and acting...

purplechoe

I agree. I'm also collecting Buffy seasons, but these are more for the younger crowd. I know people in their 50's or higher can enjoy these too, but it has more of an appeal for the young ones and that's why the price is lower, so that the 12 year olds can buy these too.

Let's get real hear for a second. 24, The Shield, etc. are also great shows, but they just don't have as huge a following as X-Files and TNG which have been around for over 10 years are are some of the most popular TV shows in history of TV.

das Monkey

• Quoth Kerborus •<HR SIZE=1>Not to offend, but my fiance' has forced me to watch Buffy before, and it is very gleefully hokey!

It has a vampire with a microchip in his head and he built a robot buffy to have sex with... Also, the acting cannot be said to hold a candle to any of the series I quoted above... And the plots are loose and yadda yadda...

Again, I'm not slamming it, but it just is a different level of writing and acting... <HR SIZE=1>

As someone who has seen every single episode of the series you listed in your previous post (and except for new eps of Buffy, I've seen the entire series run of all those shows at least twice), I will seriously disagree with you on the quality level of the writing and acting. While Buffy and Babylon 5 may not be your cup of tea, I'd put seasons 2-4 of B5 and seasons 2, 3, and 5 of Buffy against any show you've listed and frankly any show currently on DVD. TNG is one of my favorite shows ever, but let's be real - there's as much ham-fisted acting from that cast and as many craptacular throw-away episodes as there are great performances and brilliant works of art. The same with The X-Files, a show that got so wrapped up in its own mythology that it couldn't claw its way out by the end. I won't argue against The Sopranos as it has maintained a consistent level of quality from the first episode, and there's really nothing I could say against it.

I will agree that TNG and The X-Files have a larger fanbase and that may be reason enough for the higher prices, but the description you gave of Buffy sounds like you caught some bad 6th season episodes (not even remotely representative of the incredibly high quality of earlier seasons ... I could run off a list of hokey trash from TNG whenever you're ready ... season 2, anyone?), and I have yet to meet anyone who actually watched B5's 5 year run that can speak badly about it. So I would submit that while these are not shows that particularly interest you, the writing is every bit as profound and engaging, and the acting every bit as dynamic as the shows you listed.

I'd place SMG's performance in episodes like 'Becoming I & II' and 'The Body' against Edie Falco's brilliant body of work in The Sopranos, and JMS's writing on 'Sleeping in Light' and 'Severed Dreams' easily rivals such powerful TNG work as 'The Inner Light' or 'The Best of Both Worlds I & II'. I'm guessing from your comments that you haven't seen too many episodes of the series you're criticizing, and if that's not the case then ignore the following statement ... but I would suggest you give these series a chance, watch them from the beginning as they were meant to be seen, and you will find as many of us have found that their cult status (and in Buffy's case, a youthful cast) does not indicate a lack of quality. Their writing and acting is on the same level (though again I must note that The Sopranos has maintained that quality from start to near-finish with little if any drop-off, something the other 4 shows you listed cannot claim), and comparing them to The Toxic Avenger I-III is grossly unjust.

das

purplechoe

Forgot to comment on Babylon 5. When Warner released it, they were shocked by how well they were selling. I can't figure out why they thought that because that show has almost as much of a following as TNG and X-Files. If they had known that the sets would sell as well as they have, I'm sure the price would have been similar to X-Files and TNG. I'm not complaining though.

das Monkey

• Quoth purplechoe •<HR SIZE=1>Forgot to comment on Babylon 5. When Warner released it, they were shocked by how well they were selling. I can't figure out why they thought that because that show has almost as much of a following as TNG and X-Files. If they had known that the sets would sell as well as they have, I'm sure the price would have been similar to X-Files and TNG. I'm not complaining though. <HR SIZE=1>

Very true. Warner's distaste for B5 has always astounded me. Their judgment is so clouded on the issue it's mind-boggling. So the show didn't live up to your absurd expectation that it would immediately eclipse Star Trek and become Warner's golden franchise to lead execs to the Promised Land. Warner's treated it like trash for the better part of a decade, and it still thrives. You'd think by now they'd realize the show has a huge (and rapidly growing) fanbase. It only takes one genre-related convention to see the B5 fans are as numerous as the Star Trek fans. But no ... they're still "shocked" at the success of the DVD sales. How many weeks in Amazon.com's Top 10 pre-orders does it take to figure this out? Even the Sci-Fi Channel (back when it showed science fiction) was forced to show the series in its entirety 4 straight times back-to-back (contrary to their plan to only do it once, then twice, then three times, but ONLY three times) because the ratings were so damn high. Face it, Warner ... B5 is successful. You'd think they'd be happy about this and stop shitting on such a wonderful series.

das

Kerborus

Ahem...

I think not. Fandom of 'Buffy' does not make it un-hokey... I mean, the name of the show is 'BUFFY' for Pete's sake... While I can't comment on the B5 too much, I do know that it's low budget effects and wanna-be Star Trek air (they even had Walter Koenig in it...) drove me away VERY early. I will say that pretty much any WB show is a teen bliss environment. Whether it's Charmed, Roswell, or Buffy, they are all carbon cloned short thought out fluff for teenagers. They all include a 'song of the week' and the plots are simply laughable. I'm not saying that there aren't any redeemable factors, but to say it's better or even near the quality of TNG or XF is kinda pushing it.

And after making those inflamatory statements, I'd like to quote Mulder - 'Bring it On' (Arcadia, season 6 with both fists a pumping) and Picard - 'All hands, Brace for Impact!' (Star Trek Nemesis).

On the subject, TOS (still better than Buffy) needs to be on box set for no other reason than to remaster and recapture all of the extra features out there.

das Monkey

Again, I would invite you to actually watch these series ... you'd be surprised ... they're as far from your descriptions as can be imagined. And I never said fandom made it un-hokey. I said fandom doesn't necessarily make it hokey ... a clear difference. And the name of the show is intentionally silly, that some unambitious high school cheerleader named "Buffy" ends up carrying the weight of the world on her shoulders.

Having seen all the episodes of all the series in question, I'll stand by my assessment that Buffy and B5 easily match the quality of TNG or The X-Files (I would never say they surpass in quality, but these aren't two different levels here). So as not to derail this thread further, I'll leave it at that, but I'd welcome a discussion over in TV Talk if you have any substantial criticism of these two shows other than the broad and uninformed statements you've made about them so far (I honestly mean no offense, seriously , but the statements you've made just don't describe the shows ... there's hardly anything Trek-like about B5, and while the WB is a haven for cheesy teen shows, Buffy never fit in to that categorization).

With the inclusion of TOS in the discussion, these are six brilliant pieces of television all worthy of great box sets. Luckily, 5 of them are getting good treatment. Hopefully, and I expect it to be so, Paramount will revisit this fundamental piece of television history and give it the treatment it deserves. There is just too much footage that's already been produced for these episodes not to be released again once DS9 is finished. I have enough copies of them on other formats to bide my time until they receive proper DVD treatment.

das

BizRodian

Yeah, that whole Buffy sex bot, Spike thing was stupid. That's why I like only the first three seasons. I'll agree with you that the later seasons have very little quality, but it is there. Putting it with Charmed and Roswell, and writing it off as WB fluff is just unfair. The show is not made like that. There aren't any songs of the week, and it's not really aimed at teenagers.

I can't belive you write it off so quickly. I mean, geez, the show is reguarly on the top ten lists as the best show on TV.

And Babylon 5? well damn, I don't like the show much at all, but I know lots of people who consider it some of the best science fiction ever. Yeah, former Trek fans who got sick of Voyager and the state of Trek, or just regular people. It's not a huge Trek rip off or anything. It's certainly not trying to be like Trek, if anything, it's trying to be like Trek, perfected to the way the creators liked Trek. It's pretty unique though.

Just because you've seen one or two episodes of these doesn't give you the power to know what all these shows are about. I mean, if you saw one of the comedy oriented episodes of Buffy (espically from the crappy later seasons) I could see why you'd think this, but there's tons of very top notch drama you haven't seen. It's unfair to group it with Charmed. The show is very adult. It wouldn't get to be EW's Best Show Of The Year (back in 98 or 99 I think) if it was just some WB teeny crap.

Besides, this has nothing to do with how much they cost.

calhoun07

This is a weak, weak argument. You could TRY to say that with movies on DVD, and lose the argument. I see crappy movies available all the time with the same price stickers (and sometimes more, sometimes less) than the better written movies with the better directors and the better casts and the better quality. Fox and Paramount charge as much as they do for X Files and the Star Trek sets because they know fans will pay it. They know that the fans may have more expendable income than the fans of most other shows, which are priced mainly as impulse purchases and appeal to a broader range of demographic. Somebody mentioned that Buffy appeals to younger people. Yeah, people who may not have as much money as the older fans who can afford every season set of X Files and TNG.

Fox and Paramount saw dollar signs swimming around in their heads and capitalized on it. I am sure that's why Paramount changed their mind about the 99.99 MSRP on the TNG sets and allowed websites to sell them with a 149.99 MSRP. That meant they were getting the MAXIMUM retail price out of their season sets from most retailes.

das Monkey

TNG has to have one of the broadest "fanatical" demos of any show around. "Die Hard" fans often skew younger for a number or reasons, but TNG benefits from multiple generations of "Die Hard" fans. There's those of us who have been along for the ride since '66, countless millions who discovered TOS in syndication (and there can't be but a handful of TOS fans that didn't like TNG), the new generation of TNG fans that jumped on board in '87, and finally those who have seen it a bit in syndication and/or are just being exposed to the series. It's hard to conceive, but the show's been off the air for almost a decade now.

That represents a very wide fanbase, with a "fanatical" portion that actually skews old instead of young. Like you said, they can get away with that pricing since there are more people who are both willing and able to pay the high price for TNG than most any other show out there. While I loved DS9 for what it was, it should be interesting to see how well it sells under similar pricing structures. I can't imagine it will come anywhere close.

das

calhoun07

I have no idea. I was just guessing why Paramount and Fox would charge and twice as much for these season sets than others available.

das Monkey

• Quoth calhoun07 •<HR SIZE=1>I have no idea. I was just guessing why Paramount and Fox would charge and twice as much for these season sets than others available. <HR SIZE=1>

And I was just building on your thoughts with random thoughts of my own.

das

tomveil

Why is it that you can get a season box of Stargate for 60.00 retail or 35.00 from Canada? Don't tell me because TNG or the X-files are better shows. That is just your opinion.

Some of those TNG episodes are horrible with Wesley.

Kerborus

Yep. Stargate is second tier too... Sorry everyone.

BizRodian

I'd take Season 1 - 3 Buffy over any one of the TNG episodes during the Wesley years... and hell, I'd take almost anything over X-Files post Vancouver.

You have never seen these shows, and you are speaking only from asumptions, as shown by you thinking Buffy it targeted to teens and has anything other then the network in common with Charmed....

Kerborus

Wow. Way off target here. Anyway, let's talk in 10 years and see what everyone remembers. Stargate, Buffy and Babylon 5, or X-Files and Star Trek.

Please, people.

I know that people like these other shows and they have their own charms I'm sure, but facts are facts and they are second tier sci-fi wanna-bes whose very existance is spun off of the success of Star Trek and the X-Files... Let's be real!!

I'm not criticizing anyone or really even the shows, I'm just stating that because they are less popular (because the overall quality is not as good and thus doesn't appeal to more people) they are worth less.

If this isn't true than the prices would be reversed. People would shell out tons for Buffy and X-Files would be on the cheap $40-50 shelf.

Am I wrong? I don't think the studios are just 'being reasonable' with these lesser series...

Surf Monkey

Buffy will stand the test of time. Anyone who says it won't hasn't watched the show. It's a program written, produced and directed by writers (same as TOS). There's no question that Buffy is one of the best-written shows on TV.

Comparing it to Charmed!? That blew your argument right there. Don't talk about things you know nothing about.

Kerborus

Why is Buffy so different from charmed? It has a bunch of hot young teens doing sorcery and mysticism and a lot of lame sex driven plots pop up here and there. Have you noticed how everyone is a model? Is it not directed at teens? The whole concept itself is purely ridiculous...

Why does everyone assume I never watch it. As stated previously, I've watched it more than once over the last buncha years and it remains laughably silly. I keep waiting for Tom Servo and Crow to pop up...

Anything with a 'Buffy Bot', is pretty silly. Give it up...

calhoun07

So now the argument is that X Files and the Star Trek sets are priced higher because more people like these shows?? Uh, there is a huge fan base for shows like MASH yet those sets seemed to be priced in line with other sitcoms on DVD. And, yes, people will STILL be talking about MASH ten years from now. Same with the Simpsons, probably the best selling comedy series on DVD, yet the prices of those sets are competitive with other sitcoms that may not be so worthy to be remembered ten years from now.

Surf Monkey

I have no doubt that the marketing wizards at studios have a magic formula that they use to set pricing for sets like these. I suspect that factors like age, sex, and education of potential buyers all play a part in pricing as do fan fervor, income level and the age of the show in question (particularly in the case of shows that are still on the air in first runs or in heavy syndication).

Take Buffy for instance. There are tons of rabidly loyal Buffy fans just as there are tons of rabidly loyal TNG fans. Un like TNG though, Buffy is still on air. It's also in very heavy syndication, appearing on as many as three stations every day of the week in some markets. Here in Portland I can watch up to four episodes of Buffy a day on FX, UPN and FOX. TNG on the other hand is only on TNN, which isn't available in every market.

But that's only one factor. I'm sure that there are dozens of others. The bottom line is, no matter how you slice it, the TOS discs are WAY over-priced, under-featured and over-packaged. I have to keep my 40 discs apart from my main collection because there just isn't room. Paramount will revisit TOS. No question.

milo bloom

Also, Buffy has been on DVD overseas for several years now, and I've read many discussions on the Buffy groups educating each other on how to buy region free players or how to hack DVDRom drives to watch these sets. Plus, if you'll recall , Buffy season 1 came out Jan 2002, but had originally been announced for early 2001, but was cancelled. It was speculated to have been caught up in the syndication issues. It's late arrival to the US may have played a factor in the low price, as a way to tempt those that hadn't bought the overseas versions yet, or maybe even kept cheap enough so that the completists would buy both.

The Simpson's and MASH are both massively syndicated, so the DVDs have to catch people's attention either with price or features.

I have no doubt Paramount will revisit TOS either, Mr Blythe can simply tell us what is currently planned, and the boxsets may not be on the schedule.

I do hope they reconsider and put them on the schedule soon, and while they're at it, put The Cage at the beginning where it belongs.

Kerborus

The major difference between MASH and The Simpsons is that they are half hour shows, not one hour shows...

Half the show, half the price. Even if they are still talked about for years to come...

das Monkey

• Quoth Kerborus •<HR SIZE=1>Please, people.

I know that people like these other shows and they have their own charms I'm sure, but facts are facts and they are second tier sci-fi wanna-bes whose very existance is spun off of the success of Star Trek and the X-Files... Let's be real!!

Am I wrong? I don't think the studios are just 'being reasonable' with these lesser series... <HR SIZE=1>

Yes ... let's be real.

Facts are facts? The only "fact" I see is that you don't know what you're talking about (on this issue). That's not meant as an insult or flame, only to mean that the way you speak on these series clearly shows you have not seen them in any significant capacity and therefore lack the ability to speak intelligently on their content. I fail to see how you can make such sweeping comments about content you haven't seen.

Why do we assume you never watch it? Because the comments you've made would never be made by someone who had actually seen these shows. No, I'm not criticizing your right to have an opinion. It wouldn't bother me a bit if you watched them and utterly detested them. But someone who watched them would criticize them differently. So you saw the Buffy-bot episode. It sucked. No one's going to argue with you on that. Judging an entire series by that episode is like me saying, "TOS sucks because the whole show is about these stupid people trying to retrieve Spock's brain" or "TNG sucks because the whole show is about these stupid teenagers that are addicted to some lame game with glasses." Throwaway episodes. Even the best series have them. Had you watched the series, you'd find better criticism than comparing it to Charmed, a show that has almost nothing in common with Buffy on any level other than that they're both in the fantasy genre.

Oh, and Buffy's bad because some of the characters are attractive? To use your own phrasing ... please. Feel free to inform me on what planet Duchovny, Anderson, Stewart, Frakes, Sirtis, Dorn, McFadden, etc are not major sex symbols. Btw, Buffy doesn't star a bunch of hot young teens.

I notice you dropped the B5 stuff, which is good, if all you had was that Walter Koenig appeared on the show. I'll help you out, though ... Majel Barrett also appeared on the show as a gesture to fans of both series to cease the bickering between DS9 and B5 fans. She knew (as many of us know) both series were excellent, and it was a disservice to watch one and not the other. So she did a guest stop to get the fans of each show to pay attention to the other. Btw, we all know Levar Burton was on Reading Rainbow ... am I to conclude from that that TNG is nothing but a bad Reading Rainbow ripoff?

As for the other stuff, good luck convincing anyone that high ratings = high quality. If that were true, I wouldn't have just watched Man vs. Animal on FOX.

SportsNight, Once & Again, The Simpsons, M.A.S.H., All in the Family, 24 ... all reasonably priced. You're going to have a very difficult time making the case that all these series and all the series on the way are of inferior quality to the high-priced TNG and X-Files sets. As already discussed, a whole host of factors goes into deciding those prices, all leading back to supply and demand.

In summation, the 2-disc special edition Citizen Kane DVD MSRP's for $26.99. The barebones single disc of Clockstoppers ... $29.99. Quality of content does not directly translate in pricing structure. In fact, many times, items of lower quality will have a higher price, because margins must be higher to justify the cost of printing and distributing the product.

I love TNG and The X-Files and think they represent some of the best television of the late 80's and early-mid 90's. But there's really no logic to support that TV series priced below their $100+ pricepoint are somehow lower quality. Because by that rationale, we may as well conclude that they were they two finest series in the history of television since it's unlikely anything else will ever sell at a higher cost.

das