I was wondering if in the film version Aragorn will marry Eowyn instead of Arwen. I seem to recall reading about Arwen's "death" being filmed but that scene was more or less shown in TTT.
Eowyn marries Faramir in the books, but I don't think the films have developed the two of them enough to have their love get any impact.
Josh H
12-22-02, 09:06 PM
I seriously doubt that at all.
I kind of took the Arwen scene, especially the look back at Elrond and the face he made afterwards, to mean that she had decided to stay in middle earth.
I figure Aragorn will still marry Arwen, and they may not show Eowyn marrying anyone. If she does it will be developed within ROTK.
Harlock415
12-22-02, 09:56 PM
I thbink that they will still develop the Faramir/Eowyn plot, otherwise why bother to have he attraction to Aragorn at all. But how much of it will be developed is in question, perhaps it will be just a beginning for them.
silentbob007
12-23-02, 10:21 AM
The Eowyn/Faramir subplot takes place wholely in ROTK, I believe. There is no reason for the two to have met at this point, and I don't believe that all of this Arwen setup would be tossed at the end for an easy out ... ie, Aragorn choosing Eowyn. Her character is merely dramatic tension in TT, but will evolve (hopefully) in the next.
Inverse
12-23-02, 10:30 AM
Of course Aragorn is going to marry Arwen, silly. Liv Tyler is billed above Miranda Otto. ;)
Dr. DVD
12-23-02, 12:48 PM
Why doesn't he just go for a menage-a-trois? ;)
Philzilla
12-23-02, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by Dr. DVD
Why doesn't he just go for a menage-a-trois? ;)
Hopefully this will be in the ROTK EE :up:
funkyryno
12-23-02, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by Dr. DVD
Why doesn't he just go for a menage-a-trois? ;)
"Your sword? I thought it was broken."
sexy_overlord
12-24-02, 02:05 PM
I'm personally wondering whether Frodo will end up with Samwise or Gollum.
MrX
12-25-02, 12:54 AM
Originally posted by Dr. DVD
Why doesn't he just go for a menage-a-trois? ;)
:lol:
I said the exact same thing to my friend while we were watching this in the theatre.
TheMadMonk
12-25-02, 08:53 PM
I just pray he doesn't make Gollum destroy the ring on purpose, in some final self-sacrificing way. It needs to be like in the books.
movielib
12-25-02, 10:06 PM
Originally posted by TheMadMonk
I just pray he doesn't make Gollum destroy the ring on purpose, in some final self-sacrificing way. It needs to be like in the books.
I always knew I'd get into an argument about this sooner or later since I do not like the way the ring is destroyed in the book.
But it has never even occurred to me to change it so Gollum destroys it intentionally. I can't imagine it would be changed that way.
What I have always wanted to see since reading the trilogy for the first time in 1966, was to set it up so the ultimate act is Frodo's choice. The way it happens seems to be just some sort of cosmic occurrence of good (or great, really) luck when Gollum happens to fall.
I understand that Tolkien wanted to show the power of the ring ultimately getting to Frodo but I would still rather see him destroy it by choice, ultimately overcoming the ring's power at the end.
Perhaps after Gollum bites off Frodo's finger, Frodo wrestles the ring back, rips it off the finger and is about to put it on another finger, hesitates, hears Sam ("Mr. Frodo!" sounding faint and very far away) yelling at him to throw the ring in Mount Doom, garners the strength to overcome the ring's power and throws it in. Gollum, in his obsesseion, jumps in in a desperate attempt to get the ring. He could even catch it but, sorry, too late! Precioussss...
I don't expect Jackson to change it but that is the ending (or something like it) I'd prefer.
TheMadMonk
12-25-02, 10:29 PM
I have no intention of arguing with you, movielib. Not to say that your suggestion is bad or anything (which it isn't), I just think that the way it is written, it being the climax of the movie, that it should at least stay true to how Tolkien wrote it.
and I've heard it said that tolkien even wrote somewhere (in his notes, I think), that nobody alive, not Frodo, not Aragorn, not Gandalf, nor Galadriel or Elrond, would be able to actually willingly cast the ring into the Cracks of Doom, were they to make it that far. It could be argued that at that place, within Mordor, in the same mountain where it was created, the ring might just be at the absolute pinnacle of its power over whoever holds it.
movielib
12-25-02, 10:55 PM
Originally posted by TheMadMonk
I have no intention of arguing with you, movielib. Not to say that your suggestion is bad or anything (which it isn't), I just think that the way it is written, it being the climax of the movie, that it should at least stay true to how Tolkien wrote it.
and I've heard it said that tolkien even wrote somewhere (in his notes, I think), that nobody alive, not Frodo, not Aragorn, not Gandalf, nor Galadriel or Elrond, would be able to actually willingly cast the ring into the Cracks of Doom, were they to make it that far. It could be argued that at that place, within Mordor, in the same mountain where it was created, the ring might just be at the absolute pinnacle of its power over whoever holds it.
I wasn't really talking about arguing with you. I just know some will argue my point.:)
It seems to me that if that was what Tolkien's thoughts on it were, it certainly did not seem that Gandalf, the elves or anyone knew that for a fact. They knew it was an almost impossible quest but always thought there was hope, against all odds, that Frodo could somehow succeed.
I have no doubt that Gandalf, Aragorn, Galadriel, Elrond or almost anyone else would have been sure to fail (Isildur couldn't destroy it). They were too powerful and thus much more susceptible to the ring's power than a simple hobbit. If any one of them had taken possession of the ring and kept it from Sauron, he or she would have eventually, in essence, become Sauron.
Anyway, what may have been in Tolkien's notes was not in the finished product.
I'm glad you think my idea isn't bad.:)
TheMadMonk
12-25-02, 11:12 PM
I'm glad you think my idea isn't bad.:) [/B]
But you gotta admit, your idea really sounds like the traditional Hollywood happy ending, where the little guy finally finds the inner strength, etc, and that might satisfy movie-goers more than if PJ follows the book.
Even though it is pretty much known that PJ is not going to have the "Scouring of the Shire" in the 3rd movie, I also really, really really, hope that he includes and properly conveys the sadness and meaning of the Grey Havens. Part of what I love about the books is these small things that go against the Hollywood fairy tale: Frodo's ultimate failure to destroy the ring (personally), and the tremendous sadness (for me, at least) at the Grey Havens, when so many important, powerful people leave the world voluntarily, because they see that the world has changed, and they no longer belong there. I hope I am crying my eyes out when I leave the theater. I better be. If there is some tacked-on super-happy ending, I will be pissed.
m0nkeybutler
12-25-02, 11:21 PM
Originally posted by Inverse
Of course Aragorn is going to marry Arwen, silly. Liv Tyler is billed above Miranda Otto. ;)
dont be silly, the billing is by who's father has the most grammys.
personally, i just hope that RJ got all his super zoomed kissing scene fetish over with in TTT because saliva strands on the big scene just arent attractive.
movielib
12-25-02, 11:38 PM
Originally posted by TheMadMonk
But you gotta admit, your idea really sounds like the traditional Hollywood happy ending, where the little guy finally finds the inner strength, etc, and that might satisfy movie-goers more than if PJ follows the book.
...
I don't think concocting a happy accident in order to have a happy ending is any better.
Sometimes the "traditional" ending is the right one.;)
Jason
12-26-02, 10:17 AM
After all he's done right, he damn well better not change the ending to make Frodo some kind of super-hero. I hate to sound like a fan boy, but that would be totally, completely wrong.
movielib
12-26-02, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by Jason
After all he's done right, he damn well better not change the ending to make Frodo some kind of super-hero. I hate to sound like a fan boy, but that would be totally, completely wrong.
I don't think my idea turns Frodo into a superhero at all. It allows him to do what even Gandalf, Aragorn, the elves etc. thought he might be able to do (which they knew none of them could) if he could get as far as Mount Doom.
Gollum's slipping is a deus ex machina that has bothered me for 36½ years.
As I said, I knew many people would disagree with me.;) But that's my opinion.:) And I'm sure Jackson won't do it.
Duran
12-26-02, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by movielib
I don't think my idea turns Frodo into a superhero at all. It allows him to do what even Gandalf, Aragorn, the elves etc. thought he might be able to do (which they knew none of them could) if he could get as far as Mount Doom.
Gollum's slipping is a deus ex machina that has bothered me for 36½ years.
As I said, I knew many people would disagree with me.;) But that's my opinion.:) And I'm sure Jackson won't do it.
The use of a deus ex machina is hardly something rare in Tolkien's books. :)
Josh-da-man
12-26-02, 07:06 PM
I think the Ring will be destroyed much as it was in the book.
Gandalf (in the movie) tells Frodo that Gollum might still have a part to play in this affair after all. Pretty strong fore-shadowing that he's going to be the one to destroy the Ring.
movielib
12-26-02, 07:32 PM
Originally posted by Josh-da-man
I think the Ring will be destroyed much as it was in the book.
Gandalf (in the movie) tells Frodo that Gollum might still have a part to play in this affair after all. Pretty strong fore-shadowing that he's going to be the one to destroy the Ring.
I thought of that. I think it's in the books too but it's been an awfully long time since I read them so I may be wrong.
But there could be many ways for Gollum to have a part to play, and even a big one, short of following the ring ending in the book.
But as I've repeatedly said, I don't expect Jackson to change it.
denicast
12-26-02, 07:50 PM
I think that Frodo's failure to ultimately be the
one who destroys the ring over is important. It will explain
why he feels compelled to leave Middle Earth to heal.
He will be not only be brought down by his physical wounds
but also the psychological wounds of the burden of being
ringbearer but knowing secretly he failed. To come so far
only to fall into its grasp. It will also answer
Gandalf's foreshadowing that Gollum will have a role to play
in this adventure.
I saw Jackson and Wood on Charley Rose and Jackson is planning a real emotional ending. Wood said that he has seen the ending multiple times within few minutes and he could not
help being brought to tears.
wlmowery
12-27-02, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by movielib
I don't think my idea turns Frodo into a superhero at all. It allows him to do what even Gandalf, Aragorn, the elves etc. thought he might be able to do (which they knew none of them could) if he could get as far as Mount Doom.
Gollum's slipping is a deus ex machina that has bothered me for 36½ years.
As I said, I knew many people would disagree with me.;) But that's my opinion.:) And I'm sure Jackson won't do it.
But that deus ex machina is the point to Tolkien. His world view REQUIRES outside forces to accomplish ultimate good (or ultimate evil). {it's a Catholic/religious thing} Thus the ending in the book demonstrates only further that those mortal and inside the Music of the Ainur are incapable of accomplishing either ultimate good or ultimate evil without outside intervention ( in the case of gollum and the ring's destruction, the outside intervention comes from faith and hope....)
movielib
12-27-02, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by wlmowery
But that deus ex machina is the point to Tolkien. His world view REQUIRES outside forces to accomplish ultimate good (or ultimate evil). {it's a Catholic/religious thing} Thus the ending in the book demonstrates only further that those mortal and inside the Music of the Ainur are incapable of accomplishing either ultimate good or ultimate evil without outside intervention ( in the case of gollum and the ring's destruction, the outside intervention comes from faith and hope....)
At least I now know why I'm not a Catholic/religious. ;) :)
Jason
12-27-02, 12:10 PM
Originally posted by wlmowery
But that deus ex machina is the point to Tolkien. His world view REQUIRES outside forces to accomplish ultimate good (or ultimate evil). {it's a Catholic/religious thing} Thus the ending in the book demonstrates only further that those mortal and inside the Music of the Ainur are incapable of accomplishing either ultimate good or ultimate evil without outside intervention ( in the case of gollum and the ring's destruction, the outside intervention comes from faith and hope....)
Gee, the message I got from it is that no matter how hard you work to accomplish something, it all comes down to some random screw-up.
wlmowery
12-27-02, 01:11 PM
LOTR is a redemptive mythos. And redemption requires a redeemer as an outside source of the "conclusion". Not chance, but a preconcieved choice by someone "outside" the struggle.
Ketamine
12-27-02, 02:39 PM
From Dark Horizons
LOTR: The Return of the King: The Chicago Sun-Times talked with Elijah Wood and director Peter Jackson about the third film which they indicate will be longer than the last two: Jackson says "It will be as long as it needs to be. The third is my favorite one in the trilogy. It's almost biblical and makes me cry. It's about incredible courage and the last part of it is just mind-boggling". Wood's attitude runs along similar lines (fancy that!): "The third movie has always been my favorite. I've seen moments from it and they just break my heart. You've grown to care about these characters and they lose quite a lot in the process of the third movie. Frodo, Sam, Gimli, Legolas and Aragorn will never be the same". Meanwhile UK comedians French & Saunders might appear on the DVD of the third film according to Ananova. Finally a pic of Andy Serkis as 'Smeagol' in the film is up at the actor's official site. Thanks to 'Everyone's Snogging Dominic Monaghan'.
TheMadMonk
12-27-02, 11:20 PM
Ian McKellan's official site also mentions that part about the "French and Saunders" parody perhaps being included on the dvd.
Dr. DVD
12-29-02, 09:50 PM
Strange how far this thread has gone off topic. I hope PJ doesn't end ROTK on a down note. One like FOTR would be fine, but TTT was a very somber mood.
movielib
12-29-02, 11:29 PM
Originally posted by wlmowery
LOTR is a redemptive mythos. And redemption requires a redeemer as an outside source of the "conclusion". Not chance, but a preconcieved choice by someone "outside" the struggle.
So was this outside force going to make sure it all turned out OK even if no one did anything at all?
Would the outside force have made everything OK if the people of Middle Earth had not set out to physically destroy the ring but instead sat around in prayer groups and held hands and sang Kumbaya and prayed and chanted for deliverance real hard?
Was it necessary that they undertake the actual quest (as they did) to gain deliverance courtesy of the outside force? If they just did their best would that make it certain the outside force would make the quest succeed somehow?
Whatever, the people "inside" the story obviously were never certain that if they just tried hard enough some outside force would ensure their success.
Just curious about the details of the redemptive mythos.
wlmowery
12-30-02, 09:48 AM
Originally posted by movielib
So was this outside force going to make sure it all turned out OK even if no one did anything at all?
Would the outside force have made everything OK if the people of Middle Earth had not set out to physically destroy the ring but instead sat around in prayer groups and held hands and sang Kumbaya and prayed and chanted for deliverance real hard?
Was it necessary that they undertake the actual quest (as they did) to gain deliverance courtesy of the outside force? If they just did their best would that make it certain the outside force would make the quest succeed somehow?
Whatever, the people "inside" the story obviously were never certain that if they just tried hard enough some outside force would ensure their success.
Just curious about the details of the redemptive mythos.
In essence, yes.... Though my understanding of the Tolkien mythos would have precluded the actions above. It is essentially focused chance. It is best summarized by Gandalf in FOTR when he tells Frodo that "Bilbo was meant to find the ring. And that means that you also were meant to have it. And that is a comforting thought."
A more detailed understanding of Tolkiens cosmology (the plan for his fictional reality) is obtained through knowing his full backstory. In the end, all is preordained and preconcieved, but not without flaw. This is very similar to traditional Christian cosmology.
wlmowery
12-30-02, 09:51 AM
While I always hesitate to recommend the reading of the Silmarillion to anyone, if you are interested in how fate and predestination play into Tolkien's world view for his created reality, then you should at least read the opening section (less than 50 pages long I believe, so just sign it out at the local Library or go to B&N and sit down and read it over an hour) of the Silmarillion (the Song of the Ainur).
Dr. DVD
12-31-02, 10:35 AM
Oh well, guess a debate on who Aragorn might get with in the end is feeble to say the least.
If I were him and a menage a trois was not an option, I would take Eowyn.
Here's a shot of Ms. Otto in a candid but beautiful moment, (love the teeth!).
She dies in ROTK after killing the leader of the Nazgul, doesn't she? I read the books a year ago but can't remember her ever "living happily ever after" with Faramir.
Pharoh
01-01-03, 10:15 PM
Originally posted by Tyler_Durden
Regarding Eowyn:
She dies in ROTK after killing the leader of the Nazgul, doesn't she? I read the books a year ago but can't remember her ever "living happily ever after" with Faramir.
No, she does not die, She is badly injured and taken to Gondor along with Faramir and Merry. Aragorn, as foretold, heals them all. It is during the recovery process that Faramir falls in love with Eowyn. She at first does not feel the same for him since she still has feelings for Aragorn. But eventually she accepts his love and marries him. Together they rule Ithilien.
Tyler_Durden
01-02-03, 08:47 AM
Thanks for the correction. I'd totally forgotten about that (and, to be honest, still don't quite remember it :)).
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