Laertes

All right. I bought Dr Dre's "2001" or whatever it's called album (back in 1999) because of Eminem. I liked "The Real Slim Shady" and all that, but I became really tired of his shtick. Mainly, although admittedly I hadn't yet heard or bought the album, I just didn't buy the Marshall Mathers LP because of his alleged homophobia, mysogyny, etc.

I was willing to keep an open mind, because, after all, Springsteen (or even Johnny Cash), who I like, often writes songs from the first-person about murder, rape (depending on the interpretation of some of his lyrics) and I figured maybe Eminem is doing the same thing. But then I saw an interview with him in which someone asked him about the homophobia in his lyrics, and he said, "The more you call me homophobic, the more homophobic I'm going to be." I figured if he was an artist of any calibre, he would at least say, "My work speaks for itself and I won't interpret it for people." Fine, I would respect that. Or at least say, "Yeah, that's what I believe, now **** off." Instead, he's blaming everyone else for his attitudes, acting like a baby and can't even take responsiblity for his work.

So that turned me off. And then I saw him perform "Without Me" on SNL, and I just think all his songs are self-indulgent without being particularly insightful. It seems to me that his lyrics are about how he's this poor, put-upon guy, and I'm just tired of that. Plus, let's not even get into this whole thing with Moby at the MTV awards.

Now, it's occurred to me, maybe he really is a genius. Maybe he's a performance artist, who has these distinct characters. There's Eminem, Marshall Mathers, Slim Shady and (I guess, after the film, which I've read about but haven't seen) Rabbit. Maybe all this time, this A$$hole act has been "Slim Shady" and he's now morphing into this new personality (personalities?). So maybe all this "poor me, I can't take repsonsibility for my own $h*t" stuff has been an act, the whole Slim Shady thing, which may redeem him in my eyes. I'm not sure to what end this whole act would have been, but it's still interesting.

Yeah, I've thought about this too much, (although Eminem has yet to profit from it, since I haven't bought any of his product or even seen the movie). So is he a genius, or am I giving him to much credit?

LiquidSky

I saw an interview with Dr. Dre. When asked about his and eminem's homophobic lyrics, he said he did not care and did not care about "those" people (refering to gays). Hmmm. I thought yeah, and sadly, many people could say the same about you and other African Americans.

I find homophobia, racism, sexism, etc. intolerable.

What if a musician wrote songs about hating black people and claimed it was just a "character"? Would so many people race to embrace this music and refer to the musician as a genius?
Just a thought.

Laertes

I agree, which is why I never bought his stuff. Follow me on this, though, *if* it is an act, what's it all for?

My next thought on this though is that if it is an act, it's sort of sad that it sells. Is that the point he's trying to make? Holding a mirror up to society and saying, "It's disgusting this sells." In all honesty, I've never been given this impression from him or his comments; I just don't understand. I don't really get it if it's an act. Maybe I'm answering my own question here.... It's not an act.

The other thing that pisses me off is that Elton John performed with him, which is implied approval of his behavior. I'm a person of colour, and if someone sang a song with racist lyrics, I think I would look like an idiot saying, "This guy's a real artist." It's one thing to say artists should be able to say what they want to say, but then to approve of the actual content when you're a target of the content.... I think that's going a bit far.

And I also don't understand why I've been bothered by his homophobic and misogynist lyrics (though I admittedly haven't listened to his album myself), and yet a couple of friends who are gay and some female friends were at his movie on opening night. I don't understand people.... (yeah, these last paragraphs were off-topic, but I'm having trouble understanding his appeal to people who seem to be objects of his derision. Do they "get" something I don't? Like it's an in-joke, or something?).

LiquidSky

Yeah, I was not impressed with Elton John. Since when is he the spokesperson for all gays? He certainly DOES NOT speak for me.

If eminem's lyrics are supposed to be spoken though a fictitious character, what is he trying to convey regarding violence against women and homosexuals? I'm seriously interested in knowing and understanding this.

I may sound a bit over dramatic, but I feel his lyrics are dangerous. Dangerous in that younger kids are listening to this and think these beliefs are appropriate. Sure, if someone does not condone homosexuality, that is his or her right. I cannot force someone to accept me. However, instilling beliefs/ideas that could lead to physically hurting someone is unacceptable.

I realize that musicians often write songs in which they place themselves in different characters. Juliana Hatfield, Aimee Mann and Evan Dando have done this. With these artists, I understand the message they are trying to convey.

What do you think of J-Lo using the "N" word? I felt she had no right using it.

Laertes

I'm not too familiar with what happened with J. Lo., so I can't comment on it directly, but having said that, it was probably inappropriate. I think that generally, minority groups "take back" derogatory words to lessen their sting, and from my experience, to wear with pride those things that are being used as a source of insult, namely what's perceived to be our "difference." (In the whole spirit of "that which you think makes me weak actually makes me strong").

So I think it's okay for African Americans to call each other by the N-word, or for gay people to call each other any otherwise "derogatory" term within their own group or community, but I think if one is outside that group or community, one doesn't have the privilege to use the epithet. As simple as that. Women can call each other "bitch" all they want, but I won't do it.

It amazes me how simple that rule is, but how people who don't come from some "minority" group think, "Well, if he uses the N-word, then why can't I?" How many times have I heard that? It's not the same thing!!

That's the issue I'm grappling with. Because if I buy the line that he's putting on an act, then I can't quite see what it is he is trying to say. You're right, too, that unless he's pro-violence against women and homosexuals, then I think his message is getting obscured. I'm also interested in knowing and understanding his message, and I'm hoping someone more familiar with his work than I can chime in. (Again, I acknowledge that I may be giving his art more credit than it deserves).

Someone in my office thinks the whole "act," if it is an act, is simply constructed to sell product. If I believe that, then Eminem is just trying to create a media storm to sell records, which means no "artistic merit" to his "act."

One other thing that bothers me is back in 1991, Ice T (with his group Body Count, not sure if that name's right) did a little ditty called "Cop Killer." In its own way it was a groundbreaking marriage of rock and rap. All hell broke loose though, because he was talking about killing police officers, and if I remember correctly, Warner dropped him soon after that. About 10 years later, Eminem writes (allegedly--I haven't read them myself) homophobic and misogynistic lyrics, and he gets Grammys. I don't get it. It's only a matter of who your targets are, I guess.....

Well, he did write some good stuff in the 70's.

Bust

So you don't believe all humans should have equal rights?

Laertes

Whoa, where did you get that from?

All I'm talking about is people calling each other names within their own community. I'm not talking about mobility rights, or voting rights or anything else that is commonly recognized as a "human right." Besides, "rights" are certain privileges prescribed to us by laws and governments. I'm talking about the way people communicate with each other.

Let me speak from my own life experience. Like I said earlier, I'm a person of color. If a person of the same "ethnicity" as me uses a racial slur, it is not the same as a person outside my "community" using it. For instance, I'm part Asian, so if someone who is Asian calls me a "chink", let's say, that's not the same as if a non-Asian person does it. From an Asian person, it's a bit of a joke, because we're both Asian; it's absurd for him to be insulting me that way. It's not if it's a non-Asian person.

From a non-Asian, the presumption is that it is meant to be a slur. This is because the terms were invented to cause harm. If the non-Asian person is *really* familiar with me, and is a *really* close friend, it may be okay, depending on the context. Actually, even if my Asian friend says it, depending on the context it may bother me, but it doesn't have the same sting, or offensiveness, as someone saying it to me outside my own community. Like I said, those words were made to point out differences between people and belittle them for it. The difference between the person saying it and me is moot if we're both from the same "minority" group.

Are you getting what I'm trying to say? I don't know if you're a person of colour. If you are, do you agree with me?

Why did you say what you did, Bust? In an ideal world, I guess, everyone would be able to call anyone anything, because we would know that the words weren't motivated by hatred, ignorance, bigotry or prejudice. We don't live in that kind of world.

I don't want to steer too off topic. Can you help me understand Eminem?

Josh-da-man

Eminem is selling gay-bashing and misogyny to an adolescent male audience hungry for such messages.

I find it repulsive for him to try to camoflage this garbage as "art." It's a calculated product, commodified rebellion, designed to sanction adolescent male locker-room bull****.

(I know I'm going to sound like an old fogey saying this, but...)

I hate the stuff. It's my fear that young boys are listening to this tripe and thinking it's okay to abuse and rape the young women around them. That it's okay to beat up someone who's gay. Even worse, the young women who listen to that message will likewise find that type of treatment permissable.

I've often heard that Eminem was "bullied" as a child. It's rather sickening to see him, the former victim, become the victimizer.

Eminem, whether he likes it or not, is a role model. It's not like he didn't ask for it. He's not exactly turning down magazine covers or movie roles, is he? When you sell your image like that, of course your fanbase is going to want to emulate you.

Laertes

That bothers me too. It also bothers me in another way, because his "commodified rebellion" is so ludicrous once it's really examined. He claims that MTV won't play his video, but he's all over the music channel. They seemingly can't get enough of him.

I find you're right about his fanbase too. They are mostly adolescent boys, who suddenly feel legitimized in spewing hatred. I could be wrong, but that's what I find.

I guess I'm trying to understand the appeal. Given that that is his fanbase, what's the recognition from the establishment then? Why does he get Grammys? Why does Madonna (for instance) say he's great? (I will admit to finding his songs catchy though, despite myself).

I guess my whole question about whether he's doing some elaborate Andy Kaufman /Bowie-Ziggy Stardust - thing is that I want there to be some act or some art here, because I find his appeal a bit baffling otherwise. As much as he sells an image of being on the outside, he has gotten a lot of mainstream acceptance. He is the mainstream. Why? Is he appealing to our worse natures, or do people not care? (Like I said, I will admit to being taken in by some of the beats and fast rapping skills).

Are we hopeful of a Beastie Boys-type turnaround at some point? (Remember they went from "fighting for our right to party" and then talking about Tibet and lecturing the MTV Awards crowd about how the music industry could do better after the alleged sexual assaults at Woodstock '99).

Bust

You need me to expand? How's this: You believe that black people should be able to use word(s) that white people should not be able to use. Does it work both ways? Are there words that white people should be able to use that black people can't? Sounds pretty absurd when you look at it that way, doesn't it.

As far as Eminem goes, I choose not to acknowledge the existence of such a piece of crap.

Laertes

Okay, Bust. I already see that we are not going to get anywhere with each other. I don't want to get into race theory here. I see your point, though. Saying that I "believe that black people should be able to use word(s) that white people should not be able to use" is an over-simplification. You'll see that I said earlier that it depends on context, and who's saying it.

If you show me a racial slur that hurts as much as the "N-word" or hurts white people as the word "chink" hurts me, I will say, yeah, non-white people shouldn't use that word. Absolutely.

The word "cracker" never seemed to have the same sting though.

This looks like the end of the inning, and I don't want to talk about this anymore. If you have something to say, say it. I probably won't answer it. I should have known better than to talk about race issues here.

Rypro 525

with the jlo thing, that rapper guy ja rule actually wrote the lyric for her and they both said that this is not as a racist comment.

Bust

Ok, so with a few exceptions, based on closeness of "friendship", you're suggesting that black people have the right to use a word that white people don't have the right to use. Seems pretty unfair to me. In case you're curious, I'm not arguing for the right to say ******. As long as it's as offensive as it supposedly is, I just want (some) black people to stop being so hypocritical in suggesting that we should be equal in all ways except one. Take your pick, one way or the other.


I don't know if there's an English word that would collectively offend white people (although I'm sure "White Devil" doesn't sit too pretty with some), but I've heard many derogatory words said about white people in foreign languages. Since I only speak "American", I can't pop off any examples. Do you think if I went over to China and said "chink" to someone who doesn't speak a word of English, that they would be offended? The same applies here.

GuessWho

I thought it was common knowledge that "Slim Shady" was a character whose perspective was maybe 2-4 songs on each CD and the rest being Eminem/Marshall

MJKTool

I was beginning to "tolerate" Em, but when he pulled that crap with Moby at that awards show, I lost every single bit of respect for him.

tha_dvd_man

Could somebody tell me what the Eminem/Moby deal was?

tsohg

Not to barge in on the conversation but yes. Look at it from this stand point. When my brother and I were kids he had a stuttering problem now inside our imediate family we would always crack jokes and ride him about it (lovingly) but when somebody out in the street or school would tease him about it I was there to take up for him. Because they are not his family/friends and have no business making fun of him. It sounds silly and trite when you say it out loud and analyze it but that's the way it is.

I'm sure that you have some buddies that you may crack on and insult playfully and he'll never get mad at you about it but if I was to say the same thing he would probably be pissed.

and FWIW I don't think the word should be used amongst blacks either but I really don't think that's gonna change.

Rypro 525

moby said in an interview that eminem was a homophob or something, and then on the song without me, eminem calls him a bald headed ****. then go to the mtv awards, and durring a skit with triumph, triumph asks moby about eminem and apparently he said something that made him angry since then when eminem accepted an award, he insalted moby. i do still have the original broadcast and ill see what he said.
hope that helps.

Ralph Wiggum

If you haven't actually listened to the music or read the lyrics it's hard to take your opinion seriously. I'd like to know what he specifically said that led to some of the conclusions I've read here.

I've listened to the music in question and I did not get the impression that he was advocating that his audience go out and rape women, assault homosexuals etc. He uses the word gay or f** the way junior high school kids do. Most of his material is comedy, it may not be your sense of humor, but I don't think that it is dangerous.

Truthfully, I don't look to entertainers for morality, ethics or behavior lessons. If other people do that is fine, probably not the ideal place to look though.

joshd2012

Lets just get some things straight:

1) Eminem is a very talented lyricist. In an age where rapper are rapping about having sex with women and driving around expensive cars, it is a welcome change of pace to see someone who raps about their own life and its something that listeners can relate to. All the black people I know have respect for Eminem because of his lyrics. He has talent; whether you recognize it or not, it is there.

2) If you don't like his lyrics, don't listen to his music. Part of the rights you have as Americans is the freedom of speech. He can say whatever he wants on his albums. If you don't like it, who cares. Don't buy his albums. You don't have to agree with everything he says in order to like him as an artist. I'm sure that most of you (who voted) did not agree totally with the person you voted for.

3) Words are only words. If black people can say the word "******" then white people can say the word "******" and i can type the word "******". What, I can't use it because it offends some people? Fine, from now on the word "the" offends me, so don't use it.

4) Don't take things so seriously. Its only music. If Eminem hates homosexuals, that is his choice, and who are you to judge him?

joshd2012

I can't believe that word is censored.... I bet you the words, "cracker" or "wonderbread" or "whitey" aren't...

Heaven forbit black people get offended, but if white people do, its okay.

innocentfreak

I must say I agree with Ralph. I don't find Eminem's lyrics offensive and I do think he has a lot of talent. I don't get the impression that he is advocating anything. He is an entertainer, plain and simple. Now you may not like his message, but all I can say is don't listen. Personnally I agree with a lot of what he is saying but I am sure my opinion of the meaning of his lyrics differs from the people that don't like him. If you want why don't you post some lyrics or complete songs so we can debate the message?

I am too tired to think of any right now, and I can barely see straight. If any of this came off as an attack it wasn't meant that way.

Memo from work(seriously): Due to the rising concern of racism in the workplace, when referring to particular snacks in the vending machines please refrain from referring to the said snacks as animal crackers or any other type of crackers. They are now to be referred to as caucasion animal cookies.

tha_dvd_man

Please tell me that's a joke...

evenflow

LiquidSky

joshd.....have you ever been a target of hate?

I have a feeling those who have such flip attitudes regarding hate lyrics have never experienced being on the receiving end of someone's hatred.