ScandalUMD

This is a company that KNOWS how to put together a winning mix. They do it in every single Final Fantasy game, and they've made two fantastic RPG games in Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross.

So how can they let screwups like Legend Of Mana, The Bouncer, and, most recently, Kingdom Hearts out the door?

At least Legend of Mana had great art direction, although its disjointed storyline made it difficult to get into. The Bouncer had spectacular cutscenes and amazing graphics. It wasn't much of a game, but it was a cool technology demo.

Kingdom Hearts is just frustrating, because it should have been much better. The graphics fail to dazzle, instead representing several steps back from last year's Final Fantasy X.

The enemies are bland, the combat is mind-numbing. I thought Eternal Darkness's battle system was inane, but this is just ridiculous. One weapon and one button, and you have so little magic that your best off just sticking with your weapon and saving your MP for cure spells.

Further, you have no control over your party at all, making strategic use of your teammates almost impossible.

The camera is awful. I can't understand what sort of idiot made the decision to rotate the camera with the shoulder buttons when the right analog stick isn't used at all.

Further, while some of the voice work is fantastic, some characters sound pretty bad, and the writing is terrible. What's more, the staple of the best Square games, the fantastic FMV, is not in evidence in Kingdom Hearts. Instead, we get expository sequences with characters standing around and talking.

And the "worlds" make the story disjointed, like Legend of Mana, instead of epic, like a Final Fantasy or a Chrono game. It also doesn't help that the worlds are so small.

Does anyone else feel this way?

Trigger

I think alot of people liked this game. Perhaps the appeal is the novelty of seeing all those Disney characters. I haven't played it yet, so I couldn't say. My 15 year old neighbor has it and I think he said he likes it... he got it a few weeks ago and was really excited about it. Last night he borrowed GTA3 from us though, so maybe he got tired of it. I'll be sure to ask him. We're borrowing Final Fantasy X from him, so when we're done with that we'll borrow Kingdom Hearts. Since I'm fairly anti-Disney, it's going to be challenging for me to curb that feeling so I can approach the game with an open mind.

Mattalos

Nah, I'm good. But thanks for asking.

Mattalos

The following is a series of replys from a friend who didn't feel like registering. I agree.

"One weapon.. umm.. one kind of weapon. Just like every FF character. I don't think he realized there is a menu system. He was still using the Kingdom Key."

"His controller doesn't have a Triangle button."

"Have you tried moving the right analog stick? It will scroll through the menu allowing you to select and cast spells, use items and use special abilities. Pretty nifty, huh? In any case it is certainly NOT "not used at all". All this while still being able to move Sora with the left stick."

It's called a story. (that was me)

V-ism

I thought the graphics were great and is what it was meant to be. All the Disney characters look dead on, and that's something impressive to take a 2D drawing and turn it into a 3D model without making it look really 3D. Maybe you think the graphics are too simplistic, I guess you can blame Disney for that. The non-Disney characters and enemies were designed to have the same look.

happypants

I thought the worst camera work had to be when you're fighting the boss of the Halloween world. Camera focuses too close on the roulette wheel, so it is hard to see where the boss is.

gcribbs

no


since it averaged 88% in reviews and many people seemed to like it I guess it just might not be your type of game.

http://www.gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/21509.asp

viscera

I'm over 10 hours into this game and I love it! This is a very innovative game, Square tried something different and I really like it. The battle system is fun, I know it is hack and slash but it is good to get away from the regular strategy based battle system. I've noticed that I've had to use some stragety though while fighting the bosses, so it isn't a total hack and slash. I am a HUGE Disney fan, all the characters and Disney genre in this game are awesome! The graphics are amazing, the voices are great, the enviroment is sureal. I don't want to finish this game. This game gets my vote for game of the year. Yes even over GTA:VC which I own as well.

Keyser Soze

I really liked this game.... thought it was much better than FF8 and FF9.

FF10 import was okay... but nothing special either.

-k
###

Jackskeleton

Dude, Kingdom hearts is a weak square game? WHAT!! your crazy. this is top of the line, and with the cast of other of squares games, I'm very pleased with it, thats say a lot from me. I pretty much played every square game. Hell even that tobal (sp) game on import.

zero

If your only looking towards both Chrono titles as fantastic there is something seriously wrong with you.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight

So let me get this right...your camparing a PS2 game to a SNES game in terms of art direction? When the characters in Kingdom Hearts look 100000000000000000000 times better than most thrown together RPGs (Hoshigima, Legend of Dragoon etc..). The Bouncer sucked in terms of game play but I wouldnt call it a graphical leap.

One weapon and one button? Which game were you playing? So little magic? I think someone didnt level up enough to truly grasp this games engine. And you call yourself an RPG fan? This game would have sucked royally if it was turn based. But then again youd still be whinning if it wasnt so continue to cry me a river, and tell Joe Maduera how powerful your character was when you beat FF7 and then go back to your 2D world where RPGs looked better 16 bit than real time.

Pause...Custom...Abilites...Personal. OH! and you know those items you get at random? Try equiping them once you collect them...believe me they work wonders. .

...probably the same idiot who made Legend of Mana, he did it to personally screw with you. Sucks dont it?


Two words here...learn them CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT. Honestly man the cut scenes and dialouge are there to drive a story and make you (say it with me now) WANT TO KNOW WHAT IT IS YOUR FIGHTING FOR. You must not understand movies either if you cant get past some cinematics that explain a characters drive, and reaons for their actions.

Uhhh ok whats yor deal with LOM? If you hated it that much then why did you buy it? Stop whining already. Your comparing one of the best Ps2 games on the market to a 5 or 8 yr old game. Thats like buying GTA and expecting it to be like pong. The fact you continue to bash KH by comparing to LOM makes no sense and your points are contribed and hold no meaning.

No, but feel free to compare FFX to FF1 (NES) and tell me it was better, theres an argument I'd love to see.

Now I know that older games are always going to hold a certain magic that some newer games cant rekindle. Theres something right about it that you cant describe, but you know its right. A compnay like Squaresoft is always going to have a few games in the mix that dont add up to what they have done before. But again to compare KH to Legend of Mana both games just dont add up to one another. KH is a game that will draw in new fans, while keeping older ones (like myself and many others) happy. I wasnt sure how to feel about this game when I first saw the preview at E3 2000. But when I saw it I couldnt deny that I was drawn in, and that the game would be something to behold, and when I finally got to play it at E3 this year, I was amazed. And to finally have the game? . This game could have gone horribly wrong, and if made 4 years ago would have sucked. Im glad Disney let Square soft borrow their chracters and create a new mythology to go along with Squaresofts, it by no means was no easy feat and Im glad it has been done. Dont let camera issues, cinematics, and a somewhat odd but managable battle system ruin your experience for this game. Otherwise your going to miss out on somethng great. But if this game is not your cup of tea, I can only see Squaresoft saying ...

"..Oh what the heck, I went and did my best.."

Trigger

/Trigger slowly backs away from thread.

ScandalUMD

Okay... Secret of Mana was a great SNES game. Legend of Mana was a fairly weak PS2 game. It was cool looking with hand-drawn backgrounds, but its "world building" system gave the game a disjointed, episodic feel rather than a cohesive storyline, so players had plenty of places to put the game down with no compelling reason to pick it back up. The Kingdom Hearts system of disconnected worlds is similar.

Many of the character models in Kingdom Hearts look great, particularly the main characters. Unfortunately, some of the worlds are weak. I'm better than halfway through the game, and I've yet to encounter a difficult level or a deep dungeon. There aren't even any puzzles to mix things up. Just a lot of the same fighting over and over.

I have a fundamental beef with the narrative structure. When gameplay has a tendency to get repetitive, as it can in many RPGs, the storyline has to push the player to want to keep playing. In Kingdom Hearts, the story arc is weak, at least for the first half of the game. What you get is basically an abriged version of the movies in each world. The main story is basically the same as Super Mario Bros. You're looking for Mickey and Kairi, and, in every level, "Sorry, Sora, our princess is in another castle."


I didn't say 16 bit RPGs looked better, and I didn't say this game should be turn based. But an action RPG needs a more developed combat system. For example, in Zelda, the combat stays interesting, because you have to use different weapons to fight different enemies. In Kingdom Hearts, you have the keyblade and a handful of spells. In practice, most combat is basically hammering the x button, and my experience thus far is that magic is best conserved for cure spells, with most damage being dealt with the weapon.

I mean, at the very least, you could tap the analog stick to make him do different sword combos or something. I bagged on the combat in "Eternal Darkness," and that game let you target different points on the enemy and hack off limbs. Now, obviously, I don't expect to slice heads off in a Disney game, but I'd like a deeper combat system. I mean, these guys clearly played Devil May Cry, because they ripped off the orb dropping from enemies. Why couldn't they have taken a hint from the combat system? Some juggles would be nice.

Okay, I hadn't used this menu. Not everybody reads the manual, and that's not exactly obvious. They were driving me nuts wasting all their items and magic. But it's still far from an optimum solution.

Probably the same idiot who thought Final Fantasy would make a good movie and budgeted $150 million for it.


Square has a bad habit of advancing the storyline by having characters stand around in a circle and converse at length. Until FFX, you could at least skim and scroll through a lot of the conversation.

In Kingdom Hearts, the expository dialog remains, while the dazzling cutscenes of Final Fantasy games were omitted. I think that's kind of a shame.

The Square brand of storytelling is, let's face it, sluggish, and it's especially sluggish in this game. In every world you sit there while the characters introduce themselves to each other. In Final Fantasy, it's somewhat more appropriate because the story usually isn't so one dimensional, but here, I mean, come on.

Legend of Mana came out at the end of the lifespan of PS1. I think it was a 1999 or 2000 release. I guess you didn't play it. I liked Secret of Mana on the SNES, and Legend of Mana wasn't really a worthy follow-up

And it makes a lot of sense to compare the two, because Kingdom Hearts seems to have borrowed its "worlds" models directly from "Legend of Mana."

ScandalUMD

I'm well aware that the key gets upgrades. It's one thing to have one kind of weapon in a turn based game, when you're switching around between a dozen characters. It's quite another thing to have an "action RPG" where combat is the focus, but only consists of hammering the x button. Compare it to last year's Devil May Cry, or Zelda on N64, and you see what a combat system in a hack-and-slash or action RPG can be. Kingdom Hearts isn't even close.




That's real funny. I just think it was an unfortunate concurrence of decisions to give the player minimal control over his teammates, and then require him to "stock" items to their inventories, for them to waste.


I've been navigating the menu with the D-pad. Anyway, my problem is there are places where the game requires Sora to jump to a platform or something, and it's impossible to get the camera behind him because of a wall or something. You just have to take those jumps on faith.

Only in a very loose sense of the word. If this was a Disney movie, it'd be straight to video. Oh wait. It was.

Ralph Wiggum

I really like Kingdom Hearts. It's a fun game that does rely heavily on nostalgia (for me at least) to overcome the serious problems with the camera and not-as-good-as-it-could-be level design. The game as a whole strikes me as unfinished.

The combat does get better later in the game once you get some abilities. The bosses all pose a challenge and the voice acting is top-notch.

I bought it and am near the end, but will be putting it up on eBay since the replay value is extremely low for me. This game does need to be played through once because it is good old fashioned fun.

Decker

Scandal, you're entitled to your opinion and obviously you know a lot about RPGs, but to call this game a screwup is absurd. I thought it was very well done and a lot of fun. OK, it's not FF, but it doesn't claim to be. I can't talk you into liking it, but many, many people love it. Check out the scores and reviews at http://www.metacritic.com/games/plat.../kingdomhearts
A few agreed with you, most don't (except for the camera issues).

Get Me Coffee

doesn't everyone love this game?

Aghama

While you're obviously entitled to your opinion, this is a weird way to go about expressing it given that a little cursory research would show that most people really enjoy the game.

Psyko Gamer

Alright now I am one that occasionally comes away from my consoles and reads these things when Zero sends them to me. This game never claims to be FF and it could never live up to the name that FF has built for itself over the past 15 years. Kingdom Hearts is something fresh and new and just because it doesn't play like your more "traditional RPGs" then you just have to blatantly say that is sucks? I think not my friend. This is an innovative Action/RPG with I am sure many games in the future will try to build off of. As for the artistry if you think the art was bland or just plain ugly then you must not really appreciate any kind of art(unless it's a stick figure you drew). The game is beautiful and innovative bar none and deserves the props that it has been given all over(except for the select few.) If you are biased to SNES or PSX rpg's then I just have to say sorry and that you are going to miss out

The Combat system is also put together really well and unless you knew how to use it(you don't have to read the manual to figure it out just hit the Start button to switch the things out) then as you said, you wouldn't enjoy it. But when it comes to a new RPG that you have questions on then crack open the manual...it really isn't that hard to do. And yes you do hack and slash, but did you even try to use magic or summons at all? It kinda makes the game that much more enjoyable when you use the Summons. If you are saying all of this because you hate Disney then stop here and just reply.(Also on a side note you can also switch the weapons for your Donald and Goofy.

As for the Storyline, the storyline is one that is really well done and unlike any storyline I've seen before. Okay they call each female a princess, woopty doo. Technically princesses for their own stories even if they didn't say that they were even though most were lol.

Camera angles did get a little funky at times but that is a minor complaint many people have had, but not complaint enough to say flat out "this game sucks" because they know good RPGs when they play one(at least most do)

The Final Fantasy was an okay movie in my opinion(no $150 million worth) but it was okay. They seemed to be adding a new element to Final Fantasy just without the mages, knights and all that.

Bah my head hurts, if I think of anything else I'll post it.

ScandalUMD

Exactly. It's not awful, it's pretty good. But it's flawed in ways it shouldn't be, and it's disappointing. Square knows how to create a sprawling epic; FFX was one. And this is just penny ante by comparison. I'll probably finish it before I trade it for credit, but this is a game that could have been spectacular, and it isn't.

zero

Well excuse my error I always get Legend confused with Secret. my error.

So what are you saying? You wanted to rebuild Wondrerland?

I take it you didnt find every postcard, dalmation, or page from the missing text. Or bother going back to the different worlds after "beating" the game. I guess you dont like customizing your Gummi Ship to perform better..hhmmmm adding nothing to the mix eh?

Then your fundamentals are either out of tune or you simply have none. Take your pick but it obvious the story of this game is going in one ear and out the other, if your comparing KH to SMB. But since I dont recall a section of KH where it requires you to break bricks, then your point was ill-concieved.


No you just said that crappy PS1/2 games are better than KH, yet I can tell by your complaining youd rather KH had been a more "traditional" RPG. As far as the keyblade goes..again I say..Pause...Keyblade...Key Chains...Equip. Sure its a keyblade but they each have different abilites. This also holds true for Sora's attributes...you are aware that he has several right?

^ read above..it's all about customizing...but I can tell you have a hard time grasping this as shown below...

Thank god the few of us who do read enjoy the game. You CAN stop Donald from using so many potions or simply not give him any potions/items.

So your calling the entire Squaresoft team idiots? Damn maybe you should stop buying their products..all they seem to do is let you down. I however loved the FF movie, and it saddens me people like you couldnt get past your fan boyism to simply enjoy the movie for what it was and not try to envision one of the games as a movie.

Yeah conversations like the one we are having now happen in real life also, perhaps if you listened rather than skimmed youd comprehend more.

Again I ask...what game are you playing? Cinemas are plentiful in KH there just isnt an over saturation of them. Had there been one for every event youd be forced....dare I say it....watch them. Im not sure if you mind this sort of thing, but you do like to "skim" through dialouge. So lets ask you the same question...Whats wrong with you?

The Square brand? Ummmmmm every story from the bible to to any great book takes time to get develop. If you cant take time with a story I dont see how you enjoyed other Square games. If your in such a rush for a quick resolution then go play Devil May Cry, but I doubt youll enjoy it seeing as how there are cutscenes and dialouge thats about as cheesey as they coime in survival horror. And keep in mind KH is not FF. Its something new altogether. If this were a traditional FF game I guess youd appreciate it more, seeing as how Disney characters are in it, and the battle system is "flawed" you just HAVE to be done with it quickly and the story should suffer for instant gratification. Some people dont like to work for anything.

No your right I didnt play it, when I was younger and ignorant I couldnt appreciate RPGs.

Actually it doesnt. Your comparing a (say it with me now..i know its hard) a PS1 game to a PS2 game.That would be like saying Star Trek is like Star Wars because both take place in space and both stories focus aout other worlds. Apples..Oranges...

PS1...


PS2...


Good game...


Bad Game...


There are MANY things you can do from this menu, read up on it and it will increase your enjoyment of this game.

ScandalUMD

That's not what I'm saying at all. Final Fantasy didn't "build a name over 15 years." In fact, it didn't really turn into a force until it moved to PSX. What Final Fantasy games have is extraordinary production values, a refined battle system, and an epic story.

There are too many things about Kingdom Hearts that just come off a little weak. The battle system, for starters, is very simplistic for such a combat oriented game. When you compare Kingdom Hearts to Zelda, the action RPG gold standard, you see that Link has a whole inventory of weapons, and he faces puzzles and enemies that require him to be proficient with all of them. So far, everything in Kingdom Hearts is just slashing with the key.

As for the art, I didn't say the game looked bad. Most of the character models are everything anyone could ask for. But they skimped on the environments. Areas that should be expansive are claustrophobic.

The Cave of Wonders wasn't very wonderous, for starters. Where are the vaulted ceilings and vast caverns of treasure. There was one dinky little treasure room. And how about the forest in Wonderland? It looked like a room with painted walls. And considering there's only one town in the game, they could have made it look a little more inhabited.

You can't blame this on the PS2 hardware either. Plenty of PS 2 games have had impressive, expansive environments, including Square's own FFX. Heck, Square created a passable illusion of bustling cities on the PSX. Here, we get six guys standing in the same place for the whole game, and that's the town?

Square also skimped on the FMV which is a shame, because, unlike most FMV, Square's is excellent. In Final Fantasy, they dangle the movies like a carrot, so you play through any slow spots because there's always that next spectacular sequence.


I still think the combat leaves a lot to be desired. Really, the system rips off Devil May Cry, especially the way the enemies drop out of thin air, the way they move, and the power-up orbs they drop. But the combat here isn't nearly as much fun. That game gave you other weapons to use, as well as faster movement, more active special attacks, and juggle combos.

It's pretty intuitive; it can't be this shallow and not be intuitive. The only thing that wasn't obvious is that you can change the magic and item use settings for Donald and Goofy. Which still isn't good enough, because you can't change it in combat.

Didn't Ganon have to kidnap seven princesses to open the gate to the dark world in "A Link To The Past"? And, seriously, how many games have involved a progression through a series of levels to find a lost or kidnapped friend? A few thousand? It doesn't exactly compel you to play through the slow parts.

tha_dvd_man

I can just tell I wouldn't like the game, so I plan on avoiding it. Ever since their PSX games, I've found Square's RPGs to be derivative and their stories and characters trite and contrived. Write up any "epic" save-the-world/princess plot, make the game cinematic and throw in some majestic music, and suddenly the game has a brilliant story. Sorry, but I don't buy it. And this seems to be the formula I see most big Japanese games use. Kingdom Hearts looks like nothing more than the epitome of that formula put to use, this time around whoring the Disney characters for their recognition. I couldn't think of anything more unappealing than this game.

I won't even get into how much I despise their outdated battle systems, let alone how the one in this game looks.

spainlinx0

OK so I guess I'll chime in since I just bought this game with that Amazon TRU deal. There is nothing I dislike more in a game than struggling with a camera, and dont kid yourself, this game has one of the most awful cameras I have ever used. Everything feels too close, and the "automatic" camera control is definitely not automatic. It feels pretty much the same as manual to me. Enemies pop out of nowhere and you take cheap hits because you don't see them.

Now now settle down before you start ripping me apart simply because I disagree with you. I don't hate the game. I'm only a little into it, and that's just my impression so far. Maybe I'll learn to live with the camera, but I'm extremely disappointed at how clumsy it is up until this point.

I don't mind a bit of repetitive hack and slash so I don't care that the battle system isn't that deep. I like the combos so that hasn't gotten boring yet. Hopefully it won't as I continue playing.

The story obviously has been used before, but at this time what do you want? Pretty much every story written today WILL be the same as stories before it. No one is going to come up with a MAGIC story or plotline that you have NEVER seen elsewhere. It's just unrealistic to expect that. Sure the settings may change, but basically there are only a certain amount of literary themes. As long as the characters are likable and the story presented well, I see no problem with the old saving the damsel in distress story. So far I don't have any problem with the story here.

Oh and the gummy ship? I have used it once, and what is up with the graphics on that? Do they improve? Because that whole sequence seemed like a horrendous waste of time for me. Well I guess I'll fill in more impressions as I play more of this game because I do want to give it a fair shake, before I give up. Maybe I'm being a little overcritical of the camera, but it's just one of my pet peeves in games lately, and I was disappointed to see how difficult it truly was to deal with. I do like the graphics so far though. So I'll see how it goes.

zero

Its in there, but since your not willing to read up on it youll continue thinking this way. To compare this game to Devil May Cry is unfair, basicly because the enemies drop out of thin air...thats the case with most action games, so I guess according to your definition EVERY game where enemies drop out of thin air ripps off of Devil May Cry Sora will move as you tell him to, its all about (here it comes) customizing.


Sure you can, but since your too busy skimming through dialouge and cut scenese you havent taken the time to (here comes that word again) customize, and give Donald and Goofy add ons that will make them better fighters, and improve your skill at the same.

Now I know your problem with this game..you have no patience, and believe me man it shows. So while I can sit here and pick apart every post I know I cant change your mind, I can only influence you, and after about 4 posts I can see theres no chance of that. So go on hating the game for minor reasons, and maybe one day Square will go right by you and make the ultimate RPG that has no dialouge, no cutscenes, battles will be fought in real-turn-based-time, and it wont reply on one button but the entire controller. Who knows maybe youll get a written apology from Squaresoft for the FF movie, and who knows maybe one day youll make a better RPG/Action game based on Secret of Mana...Yeah and maybe monkeys will fly out of butt.

Your looking so hard at everything wrong with this game you fail to see what is right, and why people are drawn to it. This is somerthing that cant be explained it just is. Dont like the way stories are told? Then write a better one.