das Monkey

Quick on the heels of the immense success of "Buy das Monkey's New Camera" and "Build das Monkey's New Computer" I bring you the latest installment in the series. While I'll end up making my own decisions, I've found the advice of forum members to be invaluable, so I hope you can bear with me through one more contribution to the economy.

Order of Priority:
1) Quality
2) Lifetime
3) Screen size
4) Money

I'm not extravagant, but I do not mind paying for quality. This TV will get used ... a lot (check my post frequency in TV Talk), so I need something that can handle plenty of 4:3 viewing without burning out too quickly. I do not have HD service yet, but that's possibly in the future. Currently, my TV signal is DirecTV. Obviously, I'll be doing plenty of DVD watching on a progressive scan player.

I'm assuming 16:9 RPTV is the way to go, but I am open to suggestions. 55" sounds like a reasonable size, but I could definitely go larger. Right now, my viewing area is about 10 feet from the potential location, but that can be adjusted. And I'm thinking about spending in the range of $3000.00, but as with everything else, that's negotiable.

Do I have to go through a B&M, or is it possible to get good service at an e-tailer?

I appreciate any advice or suggestions you can provide. My camera rocks, and my computer is a work of beauty, so I know you'll point my in the right direction. Thanks in advance.

das

palebluedot

Well I strongly advise against a widescreen TV (both RPTV and Direct View) because the amount of 4:3 TV you watch will burn the CRTs in no time. That is unless you want to save for a little while and get a plasma, which doesn't suffer from burn-in.

So you want to look for an HD compatable 4:3 TV that handles an anamorphic signal.

My two suggestion are the following...both for around $2000

Zenith 50" - Zeinith has finally made a comback after being bought out in the mid-90s...this is my #1 pick.

http://www.zenith.com/sub_prod/produ...?cat=45&id=110

#2 Pick is Sony. This is an excellent TV as well

http://www.sonystyle.com/home/item.j...=&itemid=10231

The good thing about a B&M is 2 things...You can look at it before buying and extended warranty and service.

Some tips...when you go to a B&M to look at a TV bring a couple of high-quality (image) DVDs (Immortal Beloved and Fight Club are good ones). Also when you look at a TV at the store 99% of the time they are going to have the brightness and contrast jacked all the way up. So before you view the DVD turn both of these to the midpoint. Also make sure the DVD player is progressive scan and the TV is utilizing the anamorphic function.

Extended warrantys...I highly suggest the extended warranty for the TV because you can extend the warranty as it nears it's end. In my case for my TV it's $150 to extend it for another 2 years. I can't argue with $150 for full coverege service and free tune-ups. I suggest buying from a nation-wide store like Tweeter or a store under the Tweeter company as no matter where you might move in the future...you are covered.

That's my $.02

huzefa

Don't bother with a 4:3 TV anymore; you know just as well as I do that TV shows are moving into the widescreen format and a lot of your DVDs are in widescreen as well. I'd go for a TV with a good full to WS expansion such as the Toshibas. The 65HX82 65" Toshiba is in your price range with excellent reviews. Check it out.

palebluedot

The newer plasmas don't have the issue. The new layering of the nematic layer solves this.

das Monkey

OK ... unfortunately, this is the dilemma that stopped me from buying something about a year ago at this time. So here's my theory:

If I buy 4:3, I'll be pissed in a few years and want 16:9
If I buy 16:9, I'll have burn in problems in a few years and want a new 16:9.

With more and more shows going widescreen, particularly the ones I care most deeply about (you can guess which ones, palebluedot ), I imagine I can keep 4:3 viewing to a respectable level. Keeping that in mind, I have to ask the experts how long will it take for burn-in to become a problem? And how does that time compare with expected conversion to widescreen availability of most shows? If we're in the relative ballpark, I think I can live with some distorted/cutoff viewing for a bit.

palebluedot, I understand exactly where you're coming from and certainly haven't ruled out 4:3. I just want to keep all my options open until I can better understand the timetables of burn-in and the quality of the picture expansion. We have Hi-Fi Buys in the Atlanta area (a Tweeter company), so after discussion here and possible suggestions, I'll spend the weekend there doing some hands-on research.

Thanks for the suggestions and input. Keep it coming ...

das

X

I agree that you need a 4:3 due to your TV viewing. Personally I wouldn't bother with "cool" if it's in the wrong aspect ratio. And given your price range I'd say 4:3 is better too.

Now, in order to decide what you need past the shape of the screen, what amount of DVD viewing do you do and what kind of DVD player do you have?

palebluedot

Well, let me amend my post. I made an assumption that you cared about the image you are watching regarding whether it's stretched or not.

In my case I do care about that....however....I decided to compromise, bite the bullet, and go with widescreen. I still haven't gotten used to watching TV stretched and my Mitsubishi has one of the best stretch modes. The stretch mode stretches the outside edge of the picture to fill the screen. There are other modes that basically zoom in but those are worse...you lose picture and detail.

With that said though my TV watching no where comes close to your so I have leaned to live with it.

So if you want to go with a widescreen then I suggest Mistubishi. We have been loyal Mitsubishi users for years and have yet to be let down. My friend has a Mits 50" that's 17 years old and it still looks great. Otherwise go with the Zenith.

Best thing to do is go look at a widescreen and check out the stretch mode.

das Monkey

Amount of DVD viewing varies, but is outweighed by TV viewing. I'd say during peak TV times, 20% ... during summertime, 40%. Currently I have a Pioneer DV-444, but if I get a badass TV, I'll need a new badass DVD player.

das

palebluedot

Well when I was shopping for one I went to 9 billion stores and each guy told me that I should limit any viewing that requires "bars" to 15% of my total viewing to prevent burn-in. That's not a lot...and that includes widescreen movies as well...not just bars on the side for 4:3 viewing.

So for TV watching I view stretched and for movie watching I always try to alternate a 1.85:1 every other viewing. That is probably overboard...but that's just me. Also remember that the black bars are actually worse for burnin than the gray bars. You will have gray bars on the sides if you view in 4:3 mode...which...to me is very distracting.

das Monkey

The assumption is sound, but it appears all the shows I care most about have made the transition to widescreen already, and I expect many more to follow. The thing that would possibly concern me is sports. In any case, it appears we're in the same proverbial boat. My mind says 4:3, but my heart says 16:9, and I too am wrestling with the "bite the bullet" mentality.

What may be best is for me to gather a few good 4:3 and 16:9 suggestions and annoy the hell out of some salesmen while I play with them (the TVs, not the salesmen ... damn vague pronouns) like the jackasses in the Best Buy commercials.

das

X

The 15% is a Mitsubishi guideline which I found unacceptable when I was looking. That's because they have black bars which will cause fairly quick burn-in. Pioneer didn't have that restriction but that's because they have gray bars, which I hate because they are so distracting. [Of the two years that I've had a set that uses gray bars, I've probably used them for a total of 10 minutes. I hate them that much.]

As I see it, there are two acceptable alternatives for watching a majority of 4:3 material on a 16:9 set. Either the set has to have a very good stretch mode, or gray bars. If it has gray bars you could always cover the gray with black fabric hung down from the top of the set. My preference has been to watch in a good stretch mode. Pioneer has a very good stretch mode. You should take a look at it and see if you can live with it. I can, but maybe that's because I consider broadcast TV to be crap. But then there's always the black fabric alternative...

das Monkey

I can live with gray bars. In fact, when I was "browsing" about a year ago, I was frustrated that I couldn't find more TVs that used gray bars (knowing it was better for the screen).

15% is pretty small. Any ideas on how long before burn-in occurs if I am not disciplined (let's say 50% viewing)?

das

das Monkey

I remember some Pioneer Elites that caught my eye a while back. I am not above using black fabric, cardboard, or a beach towel if gray is that much better than black. How significant is the difference? 10% better or 100% better?

das

X

You're not gonna get an Elite for around $3000. It would be about 50% more, so forget that.

Really, for primarily TV viewing I would take a look at this year's non-Elites which have last year's Elite line doubler, the best in the business. That makes a huge difference. Broadcast TV is amazingly good on my last year's Elite and would be just as good on this year's non-Elite. The stretch modes are fine for me, but then I'm not a TV connoisseur (I'm a 16:9 DVD snob). And I've always had the black fabric/towel/cardboard method in the back of my mind. But the stretch modes are good enough that I've never been motivated enough.

In terms of how much better the gray is for the overall longevity of the set, I don't know. I haven't worried about it since I use the stretch modes. But I do know it's way better than black.

das Monkey

Just to make sure, burn-in is a function of the constant image, not the way it's presented? And it affects 16:9 and 4:3 TVs alike? My point: I'll experience equal problems with The West Wing on a 4:3 versus South Park on a 16:9? If that's the case, it sounds like a losing battle either way, and I'll be buying a new TV in a few years regardless. Am I missing something?

das

das Monkey

For clarity, the $3000 was a ballpark figure. If it significantly affects quality, I'll go up to $5000, but I'm not going to spend that unless it's really warranted and I'll be getting $2000 more in tangible quality/longevity.

And it's not just any towel. I'm talking beach towel, complete with seagulls and plastic shovels. Btw, I'm a TV snob. But the shows that get my nose above my forehead are all broadcast in widescreen now.

das

X

Burn-in is a function of some of the screen being used while some isn't. If you keep your brightness down and mix up the aspect ratio of your source material you won't have much to worry about. That's why gray bars are next best to stretch modes; the gray approximates the display intensity of a regular picture.

X

Well, if you're talking widescreen TV -- HDTV, you're getting into some more complicated territory. You need to consider the specifics of the broadcast signal -- 1080i, 720p, etc., the interface between the receiver and your TV, and the quality of the potential upsampling that the set may need to do.

I can tell you that you are leaning toward a 16:9 now, but you need to find out what the parameters of the signal that you're receiving are. I don't know the specifics of this since I haven't tried it out, but I can tell you what to look out for. Tomorrow...

das Monkey

What I'm asking is if a widescreen TV show (on a 4:3) where the network is broadcasting the color black is the same as a 4:3 TV show (on a 16:9) where the TV is not displaying image in parts. Is it the same level of burn in between the two "blacks", and if so, would it therefore follow that TV-generated gray bars are better than network-broadcast black bars?

das

das Monkey

That's cool. I appreciate all the help. For as much TV as I watch, you'd think I'd know more about this stuff. As for my signal, I have DirecTV (specifically, the SAT T-60 DirecTiVo receiver). I plan to upgrade to their HDTV dish in the not-too-distant future.

And, yes, I'm leaning towards the 16:9 ... but I trust the dot, so I won't leave the 4:3 quietly.

das

X

Black is black, the absence of light, no light coming out of the tubes. Black being broadcast instead of just the pure picture could be worse overall for your set because you have no ability to show gray bars. You could always zoom the picture to fullscreen, but you would lose some picture and quality.

I believe the TV-generated gray bars would be better for your set.

Blade

You should bring some TV product you're familiar with on DVD or tape to watch on the Mits and/or the Pioneer and check out the stretch modes. If you're satisfied with that, then problem solved...start looking at 16x9 sets only.

To test (and I just thought of this, so ignore at will ) I figure you should pic an episode you love, with lots of movement on screen (a pan & scan space movie might even be a good idea for this, or a taped sporting event) and also a episode that you find boring. Watch about 15 minutes of each. The first should determine whether the stretch mode will distract you when you're engrossed in a good program, as well as show whether the stretch mode will distract with action that goes off the screen...the later will let you see if the stretch mode bugs you when you're bored with what you're watching. I picked 15 minutes because I figured that would be enough time to get into a "TV watching" frame of mind while in the store.

Happy shopping.

-David

palebluedot

They may be in widescreen but are they High-Def? Even if it is widescreen..to properly view it you will have bars on the top and botton as well as the sides. Same thing for non-anamorphic DVDs. Otherwise you are going to have to watch in stretch mode.

das Monkey

But won't it be proportionally stretched, and therefore not an issue for black bars or distorted/cut-off picture?

das

das Monkey

Very basic, but very good suggestion. I have some non-anamorphic widescreen television shows and 4:3 television shows that I'm very familiar with. Maybe I'll record some of tonight's Braves game to get a sports feel too. The salesmen are gonna love me.

In the end, a lot depends on how bad gray bars will be. If I could do 50% viewing on gray bars for a few years with no problems, then it's a moot point. Are there any online resources where I could further research this question?

das