biwiring ... what is it, how do you do it? (and other n00bie questions ... )

[qbert]

well the title pretty much sums this up.


i'm a relative noob to ht setups - my first foray was a bose am-10, and w/o getting into a debate, i hated it. i got a very good discount on it (paid ~400 all in, new), so i'm looking to hawk it on ebay for hopefully what i payed for it, if not more.

when i bought my receiver i thankfully did a little more research. best price/performance offered at the time was the onkyo tx-ds777 which i guess i'm happy with. i presume my noobiness prevents me from taking full advantage of it :(

but now i've got some cash and i'm looking for a good pair of speakers to complement these. :thimbsup:

i was reading up some comments on b&w's 604 s3 and one of the comments i had read was about bi-wiring ... and that the speakers MUST be biwired for better performance. well i've done a search here and i can't find anything with a title about biwiring soooo ...


what is bi-wiring? how do you do it? why do you need to do it? and is it hard to do it? i've got a whole slew of questions to add later but

also - i don't completely understand when you need to amp/preamp etc., ... how do you know if the power your receiver delivers won't be enough to effectively utilize your speakers? hell, i don't even know the difference b/n amps and pre-amps ... do i need it? do i have it? what's this all about?

ANY and ALL advice on anything would be appreciated

thanks in advance


link to b&w specs (http://www.bwspeakers.com/products/gallery/tech_specs.cfm?object_id=5C67EF0A-BB10-4EB9-8101E8DE3C664EE4)

link is busted to onkyo - here are the receiver specs

A/V Receivers TX-DS 777

AMPLIFIER SECTION
Power Output 105 W/ch to each of the Five Channels into 8 ohms
Front L/R 105 W/ch
Center 105 W
Rear Surround L/R 105 W/ch
Multi-Source Mode None

Dynamic Power**
8 ohm 120 W/ch
4 ohm 180 W/ch
3 ohm 250 W/ch

THD 0.08%

Damping Factor 60 at 8 ohms

Sensitivity & Impedance
Phono MM 2.5 mV, 50 kohms
CD & TAPEPLAY 200 mV, 50 kohms
TAPE REC 200 mV, 2.2 kohms
PREOUT (Subwoofer) 1 V, 470 ohms
Frequency Response 20 Hz to 100 kHz, +1/-3 dB(LINE INPUT)

[Brian Shannon]

what is bi-wiring? how do you do it? why do you need to do it? and is it hard to do it? i've got a whole slew of questions to add later but

Here is a link

http://www.whathifi.com/scripts/sadbuttrue.asp?id=3

Biwiring
Biwiring speakers can improve the sound of your speakers. If you can biwire you generally should. Many speakers sound better when they are biwired. In some speakers the change is small in some it is more apparent. Biwiring speakers involves running two separate runs of speaker wire to a speaker. One pair is hooked to the high input posts and the other set to the low input posts. Normally a gold plated jumper is used when one set of wires is used. In order to biwire you must remove the gold jumper. Even if you do not biwire remove the post and just use a short run of speaker cable to connect the two sets of binding posts. It will sound better because the jumper bars are usually made of brass that has been gold plated neither of which are a very good conductor. Also, you can tailor the sound of your speakers a little bit with the selection of the speaker wire. If your speakers sound bright then you can get speaker wire that is a little laid back in the highs to counteract the brightness of the speakers. But, you can't perform miracles with speaker wire. The speaker wire should be one of the last things tried to improve the sound. Also you should use better wire for the highs. For example lets say your speaker wire budget is $10 a foot and you want to biwire. You could use identical $5 a foot cable for the high and low input. You could use a $3 cable for the highs and a $7 cable for the lows. Last and the way I recommended is to use a $7 cable for the highs and a $3 cable for the lows. You could even use somewhat cheaper wire of appropriate gauge for the low input and spend more on the high cable. When you spend more on wire you naturally will get better materials used which will translate in better sound quality.

http://www.geocities.com/m_churches/wire.htm

Do you need to biwire? That depends alot on the speakers and amps involved. With a receiver you probably will not have the reqired speaker terminals to biwire

also - i don't completely understand when you need to amp/preamp etc., ... how do you know if the power your receiver delivers won't be enough to effectively utilize your speakers? hell, i don't even know the difference b/n amps and pre-amps ... do i need it? do i have it? what's this all about?

A receiver is composed of three parts, amp, preamp and tuner.

You can by seperate pieces and generally speaking at the higher end you will get better performance from seperates. As far as power you are better off overpowering a speaker than underpowering it. The most important thing to remember about power is that clean high current power is always better than some box with ridiculous specs.

The unit you have quoted would be fine to drive the B&W speakers.

[Sn0]

I own B&W and would recommend actually scaling your speakers back and going with a set of 602's on stands and spend the left over money and some extra on a decent sub. you usually set your front speakers to small anyway to get a more seamless sound across the front, if you are going to use your system for mostly Home theater this will save you some money and sound just as good

[Brian Shannon]

Originally posted by Sn0
I own B&W and would recommend actually scaling your speakers back and going with a set of 602's on stands and spend the left over money and some extra on a decent sub. you usually set your front speakers to small anyway to get a more seamless sound across the front, if you are going to use your system for mostly Home theater this will save you some money and sound just as good

And I will second this suggestion. Prior to my upgrading to B&W CM4's, I was using a pair of 602's with a sub. Very nice combo

[qbert]

you guys are the sh-ite ... thanks

i actually went down to the store to give this a listen - they didn't have the 604s3
but i did have a chance to compare the 604s2, and the 603s3

i was amazed at how good these things were - the only difference was in the extra bass for the 604

here's a question, taking what you guys had for advice,
should i be interested in purchasing the floor model of the 604s2, available for $900?

or should i still look to scale back and give the 602 with subwoofer the go?

i am loathe to look for a subwoofer - from the quick looks i've seen a bunch of names with veoldyne/dr.hsu being rated higher than some others. Sn0 and Brian, what subs did you go with when using the 602?

thanks again in advance :)

[Brian Shannon]

Originally posted by qbert
you guys are the sh-ite ... thanks

i actually went down to the store to give this a listen - they didn't have the 604s3
but i did have a chance to compare the 604s2, and the 603s3

i was amazed at how good these things were - the only difference was in the extra bass for the 604

here's a question, taking what you guys had for advice,
should i be interested in purchasing the floor model of the 604s2, available for $900?

or should i still look to scale back and give the 602 with subwoofer the go?

i am loathe to look for a subwoofer - from the quick looks i've seen a bunch of names with veoldyne/dr.hsu being rated higher than some others. Sn0 and Brian, what subs did you go with when using the 602?

thanks again in advance :)

IMHO a sub is a must for home theater. It will definitely be necessary for the 602's but you would still want one even with the 604'2.

Floor model speakers can be a good deal, just make sure you look them over carefully and verify the warranty and and any exchange info.

In the future I am strongly considering SVS subs as the most performance for the money.

http://www.svsubwoofers.com/

[qbert]

Originally posted by Brian Shannon


IMHO a sub is a must for home theater. It will definitely be necessary for the 602's but you would still want one even with the 604'2.

Floor model speakers can be a good deal, just make sure you look them over carefully and verify the warranty and and any exchange info.

In the future I am strongly considering SVS subs as the most performance for the money.

http://www.svsubwoofers.com/
i'm amazed at how much about there is to learn about this stuff :p

outta curiosity - how much did you pay for your 602s?
offer here is 600 on the s3 and 480 on s2 ... will hafta look around before deciding if this is a good deal ...

to answer yer ? the warranty is 5 yrs, parts and labor, not sure on what you mean by exchange info (?)

just checked the svssubs site ... simply awesome - thanks for the heads up ...

[Brian Shannon]

Originally posted by qbert

i'm amazed at how much about there is to learn about this stuff :p

outta curiosity - how much did you pay for your 602s?
offer here is 600 on the s3 and 480 on s2 ... will hafta look around before deciding if this is a good deal ...

to answer yer ? the warranty is 5 yrs, parts and labor, not sure on what you mean by exchange info (?)

just checked the svssubs site ... simply awesome - thanks for the heads up ...

Hehe yes there is a lot to learn and a lot that changes. I have been buying and upgrading High end audio for over 20 years.

I have an older set of 602's (1997) and I honestly do not remember what I paid for them. As far as an exchange, what are the stores policies on returns? Do they allow a one year trade up guarantee? As far as a good deal on B&W, that is not too bad. B&W protects their dealers and there are no internet sales.

[Sn0]

My 602's V2 were 409 and my 601 were 309 coupled with a sub such as Velodyne or if you want to go with what most people claim to be an excellent sub a SVS you would be very happy I think, it's just up to personal preference, like I said my self I chose bookshelf because I don't listen to alot of music so that was my best bet, but for under 1000 you can find a B&W set of 301, 302 and a cc6 ($239) which would be a VERY nice system for that price

[Sn0]

Well I actually found the price they were asking you to pay for the 604's and man for 400-500 less I would go with the 602's and a sub in a heartbeat. for $649 you can get the SVS 30-39 PCi where if you went with the 604's you would have to go with the sony sub which is 150 dollars to spend the same money.

The SVS and 602 I have a sneeky suspicion will sound leaps and bounds better than the 604's and a SWAM40 and the cost is the same.

[qbert]

Originally posted by Sn0
Well I actually found the price they were asking you to pay for the 604's and man for 400-500 less I would go with the 602's and a sub in a heartbeat. for $649 you can get the SVS 30-39 PCi where if you went with the 604's you would have to go with the sony sub which is 150 dollars to spend the same money.

The SVS and 602 I have a sneeky suspicion will sound leaps and bounds better than the 604's and a SWAM40 and the cost is the same.
yah lost me there Sn0
:hscratch:

floor model 604'2 = 900
better to scrap this idea and go with

602'3 + 20-39 pci = 600 + 650 (w/o snh)= 1250 ?

not saying more $ is better/worse, just making sure we're comparing the same things here

[Sn0]

Sorry I was going with my prices

602's+SVS=409+649=1058

604+Sawm40=900+150=1050

cause even with the 604's your gonna need a sub, I was just comparing what you can get for the same money

[qbert]

Originally posted by Sn0
Sorry I was going with my prices

602's+SVS=409+649=1058

604+Sawm40=900+150=1050

cause even with the 604's your gonna need a sub, I was just comparing what you can get for the same money

Sn0, Brian, thanks again for all your help.

but at this point, i think i'm going to defy conventional wisdom ...
i looked at the 602 mainly due to space issues ... but whe i realized they were gonna take up as much space as the 603s, that became less attractive (unless i can find some really sturdy bookshelves :p )

my heart is leaning to buying the floor model 604s for now. the bass seems to kick enough for the moment (well, at least until i can buy a decent sub) ... 602 + sub is good if i'm on a tight budget, but to be honest i think i will be ordering the svs anyhow in another couple of months ... i can always find the 602s for 600 but i may never find the 604 for 900 (is that a true assumption?), so i'm gonna go with these for now.

now my next n00b question is back to wiring ...
what would you guys recommend? every store i goto tells me that their brand is best - or that certain wires work well with certain speakers or that monster/radio shack is the panacea for all cabling worries. is there a website that given your components, you can find an objective wiring rating/comparison? or is it all trial/error and word of mouth?

and another n00b question - these speakers are not video shielded and may have to be close to the tv ... short of buying a lead blanket, how can i be sure my tv will be ok?

[Brian Shannon]

now my next n00b question is back to wiring ...
what would you guys recommend? every store i goto tells me that their brand is best - or that certain wires work well with certain speakers or that monster/radio shack is the panacea for all cabling worries. is there a website that given your components, you can find an objective wiring rating/comparison? or is it all trial/error and word of mouth?

and another n00b question - these speakers are not video shielded and may have to be close to the tv ... short of buying a lead blanket, how can i be sure my tv will be ok?

Good choice on the 604's you will be happy. Save your money for a sub for later on.

Any good quality cable will do fine. The subject of cable is nearly as bad as discussing Middle East peace.

You can't be sure about your tv, place the speakers where you want them and look for any signs of distortion or color change on your screen. If there is any, move the speakers immediately. There is no practical way to shield an unshielded speaker.

Good luck.

[Sn0]

wire wire wire.....like Brian said every one has their own opinion and really until you get into seperates and speakers that cost as much as my car and difference in the high quality cables will not be noticable, just choose a good cable and you will be fine.

[bfrank]

For the shielding- get to a menu screen or something on a dvd that is all one color - this way it is much easier to see. Most new tvs have built in degausser so if you get distortion move the speakers away to where is is gone then turn off the TV for a few minutes then turn it back on and check again.

As for wire, I would save money here. Buy what you like but for the most part it is almost impossible to hear the difference in wire.

[qbert]

Originally posted by bfrank
As for wire, I would save money here. Buy what you like but for the most part it is almost impossible to hear the difference in wire.

but what would i like?
i hear what you guys are saying, but unless i buy every brand, unwrap the cable install it, listen to it, then put it back, open a new one, listen to that one ... how do i know?

i hold all your opinions in high regard ... what brands have you gone with? up till now, i've pretty much radioshacked all my cables and don't know what's considered to be better ... in other words, what are some good names, and what are some names that is hould def. stay away from?

[Brian Shannon]

but what would i like?

I have no idea!

Cable is a very hot topic and not easily discussed. You will get many different opinions. I prefer high build quality and on my equipment I believe that higher quality cable sounds and looks (video output) better--that is my opinion only!

If you want to know what I like to use, I have Transparent speaker cables and interconnects on my stereo only system and a variety of Transparent and Monster cables on my home theater system. I have also used Audio Research and Kimber Kable as well.

Here are some links

http://www.bettercables.com/

http://www.transparentcable.com/

http://www.monstercable.com/

http://www.audioadvisor.com/

Good luck.

[qbert]

brian - your help is invaluable.
thanks many times over

[Brian Shannon]

Thanks!

[qbert]

now if only you were there before i bought my bose am-10s!!! :mad::lol:

i just talked with the manager ... he wants me to come in again to talk about price in an all-cash deal :D
i suggested 800 flat - no tax. if i get these all in at 900 i think i will be pretty happy ...

sell the bose on ebay ~ buy a sub ... man this ht sh-t is fun :p

[Brian Shannon]

Originally posted by qbert
now if only you were there before i bought my bose am-10s!!! :mad::lol:

i just talked with the manager ... he wants me to come in again to talk about price in an all-cash deal :D
i suggested 800 flat - no tax. if i get these all in at 900 i think i will be pretty happy ...

sell the bose on ebay ~ buy a sub ... man this ht sh-t is fun :p

If you are so inclined check what cable they are using. Margins on cable are higher than speakers and he maybe able to do a deal on cable with the speakers. Also some stores heavily discount open or used cable. That is unless you want to buy some generic cable at Home Depot, which people do.

Good luck.

[Sn0]

I pesonally use Vampire Wire, I got it used so I didn't pay full price for it but it usually runs about $13/ ft. But it is great wire. It is divides into 8 conductor bundles and these are wrapped around a core.

[qbert]

Originally posted by Sn0
I pesonally use Vampire Wire, I got it used so I didn't pay full price for it but it usually runs about $13/ ft. But it is great wire. It is divides into 8 conductor bundles and these are wrapped around a core.
:thumbsup:
dood - shoulda mentioned you too - thanks for all your input sno - will check these suggestions out

[Sn0]

No problem glad I can be of some help! if you really want to get swamped head on over to HTF, and be prepared to be floored by the amount of suggestions you would get over there. A little overwhelming but some good info usually

[joe liquor]

Originally posted by Sn0
My 602's V2 were 409 and my 601 were 309 coupled with a sub such as Velodyne or if you want to go with what most people claim to be an excellent sub a SVS you would be very happy I think, it's just up to personal preference, like I said my self I chose bookshelf because I don't listen to alot of music so that was my best bet, but for under 1000 you can find a B&W set of 301, 302 and a cc6 ($239) which would be a VERY nice system for that price

Damn! Where are you buying your B&Ws? Those are crazy cheap!!!!! Did you buy them after the S3s came out or what?

In the Illinois/Wisconsin, every place I looked it was almost straight list ($600) for 602 S2s in Jan. 2001. I just bought the 601 S2s now that the S3s came out and those were $350 ($100 off).

[qbert]

Originally posted by Brian Shannon
If you want to know what I like to use, I have Transparent speaker cables and interconnects on my stereo only system and a variety of Transparent and Monster cables on my home theater system. I have also used Audio Research and Kimber Kable as well.
ok - so here i am my new speakers all set up - i'm very happy and thank you both sno and brian for all your help -

i'm now looking to upgrade all my cabling from the standard rs stuff i've been using. i checked out your websites and some are better than others. (you can't order vampire or transparent cable from the websites ... wtf?!?).

brian, just making sure here but did you mean acoustic research?
if so, how have you liked it vs the more expensive stuff you've used? i saw the other brands you mentioned and i was damm_surprised to learn how $$$ these things can get.

also

i've seen some people break down what you should try to spend your budget on re: receiver, speakers, surround and subs ... but no mention on cable. i know the biwire i bought cost about 10%+ of what my speakers cost ... is there a general rule of thumb here you guys like to follow?

oh and thanks for the info on htf sno ... that was just some crazy ass stuff ... the newbie section completely answered many questions i didn't even think to ask. :thumbsup:

[Brian Shannon]

Yes it was Acoustic Research, sorry. It has been a long time since I have used them, they are not even part of my system at the moment.

Personally I have never believed in trying to budget percentages for parts of a home theater system. I purchase what I like, what works for me and what I feel is worth the money.

I believe that you can purchase Transparent directly from them with a phone call although they would like to have you go to a dealer.

Good luck.

[DieselPower]

Hi All,

This is my first post. Hopefully this will work.

I have had a pair of 602 S2, 601 S1, CC6 and now Matrix 802 S3 Speakers. I also had a velodyne subwoofer in my home theater. I use McIntosh amps and preamp/processing. I have a pioneer elite LD/DVD player and Tivo :)

From my experience, the entire B&W line benefits from BiWiring. It's not a great cost to buy biwire cables and to my ears it seems to let the speakers really sound clearer. The 602's will really put out bass if you have good amplification. The 802's are mind boggling!

Brand wise, I am a diehard MIT fan. I use MIT T2 BiWire cables for my 802's and the 602's. The cables are about $400 new but they can be had online used on eBay for about $100. I use all MIT interconnects, they are built great and always seem to have brought out the best in my equipment.

The one piece of advice I would give with B&W speakers is to make sure they have enough power. They are not inefficent speakers, but they do seem to benefit from additional power. I used to use a Pioneer Elite VSX-09TX which is a 100W 5 channel reciever. It played the speakers fine, but when I upgraded to a seperate McIntosh 100W amp and the MIT cables, the speakers seemed to take off. My 602's don't have the range of the 802's but they are phenominal for their cost!!

Best of luck with your setup. I've never been disappointed with B&W, they are a great company and they make wonderful speakers. You'll have years of enjoyment from them!!

Chris

http://www.mitcables.com
http://www.bwspeakers.com/service/getthemost/article_details.cfm?objectID=F5CA2E9F-3D20-11D4-A67F00D0B7473B37
http://www.audiogon.com