towers better than bookshelf?

[namrfumot]

i'm looking to buy some speakers from hometheaterdirect.com and they have towers for 2x the price of bookshelf speakers

are they generally worth the $$? or would be be better spent on other things?

[edclem]

All other things being equal, (comparable speaker quality) you're usually going to get much better low frequency performance from a tower than from a bookshelf.
I have heard, though, some very impressive bookshelf models, such as the Paradigm Reference series Studio-20.

[reverb]

If your primary use for this system will be movies (as opposed to much music), then monitors (what your calling bookshelf) matched with a subwoofer is what I would recommend. Ideally, a home theater would have four full range (prob what your calling tower) speakers and a center channel, with no subwoofer (direct the LF channel to the four surround channels). It is much more expensive to utilize full range speakers than monitors and a sub though, hence the popularity of the common 5.1 monitors/sub packages.

If music is important, and you will listen to two-channel audio on the same system, then I would recommend incorporating full range speakers for the front mains (and use the sub only with movies).

[Frank S]

If money is not a big deal with your setup don't hesitate going with full size speakers all around (including center if you can) as you will get a FAR BETTER HT experience with this setup as opposed to the small surrounds! Just listen to a HT setup playing films like Saving Private Ryan or Gladiator etc.. with small surrounds then one with large full size speakers and your question will be answered quite appearantly! If your receiver decodes DTS surround then the use of full size surrounds becomes even more a must have! I use JBL 15" Three-ways all around (including center speaker) and people are just blown away when listening to the audio (HT or Music) and these people include those who have the satellite/subs setups!

And others will point out that you can re-direct the low frequecies to the sub but then you have a single driver doing all your bass instead of 6 or seven drivers doing the bass. Not hard to figure which would be the more impressive!

[M i c h a e l]

Keep in mind that more bass does not equate to better sound.

Some towers may deliver more bass, and conversely, some
comparably-priced smaller speakers may deliver more bass than
the towers.

The key, is which provides the best sound quality for the
frequencies range covered.

Looks to me like you're going to blindly buy some speakers
mailorder, based on specs alone. This is <B>not</B> a good idea.

Listen to several models -- yourself -- with your own CDs (yes,
music is the true test for speaker quality), and decide on which
model suits you best.

Start here, where most audio magazines, and audio folk have
found sonic nirvana, at realistic prices:

http://www.goodsound.com/original/speakers.html

[daledude]

You should never buy speakers without being able to hear them first or return them for a full refund if not happy. A large part of audio is perception, i.e. what you hear.

Generally speaking tower speakers will have more bassthen bookshelves, but adding a good subwoofer to bookshelf speakers will have more and better bass. The performance of most tower speakers cannot approach the levels of clean bass that a dedicated subwoofer can produce.

The key is that a separate sub can be placed for the best/smoothest/loudest bass response. A tower speaker will always be a compromise between bass and the rest of the spectrum. A well setup quality subwoofer will have more bass then a room full of tower speakers. Proper bass management will yeild results indistinguishable from five tower speakers (it's not hard to do but rarely done correctly in showrooms).

You can get a really good sub that will easily outperform all but the most expensive full range speakers for around $500 (Hsu Research VTF-2 for example). Combined with good bookshelf speakers, it can sound much better then a system with only full range speakers and no sub.

[namrfumot]

thanks guys..that answered my question perfectly. i already have a 12" 200w powered sub that i love so i guess i dont need the added bass that a tower would bring over a bookshelf speaker.

well not enough to make me wanna spend twice the price!

[Phil I]

FYI: I have two reasons why I've been using bookshelfs/satellites over tower speakers (which I once owned back in the early 80's);

1. Imaging
2. Flatter response between 100Hz to 1 kHz

Reason #1 - Article 1984 Stereo Review article by Julian Hirsch entitled "Where's the Bass?" (pg. 73)

The imaging qualities of satellite speakers used in three-piece systems are frequently superior to those found in larger systems, even when the latter are of higher overall quality. One theory of sound reproduction holds that a sound source should be an infinitely small "point source" for optimum stereo-imaging qualities.

The effective size of a speaker's sound source is a function of its actual size. The smaller the dimensions of the driver and adjacent enclosure surfaces, the better the speaker's polar dispersion and the more nearly the sound will appear to come from a single point in space. With two speakers and a properly made stereo recording, this point can be located anywhere between the two speakers.

Although there is definitely not universal agreement on the relative subjective desirability of point-source radiators versus those using reflected or dispersed sound sources for some or all of their output, if nearly pinpoint stereo imaging appeals to you, a good three-piece system may be your most logical and economical choice.

Reason #2 - Visual proof that the tower speaker vs. floor reflection interaction is evident, see the Sound & Vision Speaker Graph's @ my webpage Are Bose Speakers "Over Priced vs. Performance??" where you will see that the frequency power output dips below the AVG frequency power output.

http://www.geocities.com/p_iturra/Misc_HT_Speakers.html

Look @ the following Mfg.'s (configuration = Tower Speakers);
(Front left/right speaker graph listed by increasing MSRP)

Paradigm Legend Home Theater Speakers System
JBL HLS Home Theater Speakers System
Definitive Technology ProCinema 400
PSB Image HT Spkr System
Definitive Technology BP 2002TL
Acoustic Research Hi-RES

Food for thought,
Phil

[reverb]

Originally posted by daledude
Generally speaking tower speakers will have more bassthen bookshelves, but adding a good subwoofer to bookshelf speakers will have more and better bass. The performance of most tower speakers cannot approach the levels of clean bass that a dedicated subwoofer can produce.

The key is that a separate sub can be placed for the best/smoothest/loudest bass response. A tower speaker will always be a compromise between bass and the rest of the spectrum. A well setup quality subwoofer will have more bass then a room full of tower speakers. Proper bass management will yeild results indistinguishable from five tower speakers (it's not hard to do but rarely done correctly in showrooms).

You can get a really good sub that will easily outperform all but the most expensive full range speakers for around $500 (Hsu Research VTF-2 for example). Combined with good bookshelf speakers, it can sound much better then a system with only full range speakers and no sub.

This is simply not true. Even the best subs do not have 'better' bass than high-end full range speakers, they typically have more bass. Being full range means more than 'has bass', there is crossover quality and tuning to consider. And for accuracy and time/phase alignment two subs must be utilized, in the front in a music system.

I will not utilize subs in a dedicated music system. In critical listening to diverse program material on reasonable to esoteric hardware for twenty-five years I have never heard better or more acurate bass with a sub, just more prominent. I have also read very little that contradicts this, and much that supports it.

I do recommend the use of a sub for HT systems though, do to budget and program material. However, most speaker designers (and I can quote folks like Richard Vanderseen) concur that four full range speakers without a sub is preferred for the most accurate and impressive HT sound. I simply find that not practical. Many people are very critical of the .1 channels existance. I would add that THX certification is indicative of mediocrity, not great sound - it is subscribing to how they think HT should sound.

Anyway, a tower speaker is most certainly not a compromise between low frequency and higher frenquencies. There are speakers proving this out in many price ranges - Vandersteen 2C to B&W Nautilis to PSB Silver Stratus to whatever... In regards to quality speakers, for accurate repoduction, they are in fact less of a compromise. It is true, however, that regarding less expensive speakers monitors are often more precise, though adding a sub does not benefit their accuracy, it just adds bass.

And the Hsu is a decent sub for music, but if the budget is limited I would consider others for HT use.

[Sdallnct]

I'll throw my 2 cents in and steal some comments from above.

1. It is VERY hard to GENERALIZE and say ALL or NEVER or MORE or whatever. YOU MUST LISTEN.

2. I agree MORE does not mean better. VERY TIGHT bass can sound much better then a bass that goes lower but is sloppy and slow.

3. Place a pair of high quality bookshelf speakers on high quality stands and they can sing!

4. There are other variables at play. The rest of the system, the room, what you want out of your system, what you are listening, how much you are willing to spend, etc, etc

5. I have heard bookshelf speakers played just as loud as towers, the size has very little to do with power handling.

6. The single most important thing you can do is LISTEN, LISTEN, LISTEN

Real life examples: I love the sound of my OLD KEF 103.2's (largish bookshelf speakers). If you read the spec's, they do NOT go very low, but the bass they have is very tight and quick. Like many bookshelf speakers, they sound their best on high quality solid stands. Imaging, depth are very good with these speakers, but I have heard a few towers that are just as good in this area.

[daledude]

I think I'm being misunderstood when I say "better" bass response.

When dealing with subwoofer freq. (under 60 - 80 Hz depending on who you ask) a large influence on performance is room interaction. Depending on where the driver is placed you will have peaks and nulls in various places in the room. There are only two ways to remove them, moving the driver or using equalization. While both methods will work, equalization is least desireable because it can place more demand on an amplifier to reduce nulls and even then it's often not ideal.

By having a dedicated driver to reproduce the low frequencies, it is much easier to experiment with placement to get the smoothest most accurate bass response without having to sacrifice other areas.

It's the dedicated nature of subwoofers that allow them to have both better and more bass then towers. They tend to have a smoother bass response primarily because they are more flexible in setup. Because they can be placed in a corner or near a wall they benefit from room gain and thus can have 3-6 db more output they if they were placed out away from walls like most speakers are designed to be.

The key is to find a good sub that has good output down to about 20Hz or so. Not until recently this was almost impossible to find at under $1000 prices, but now with subs such as the Hsu it's become affordable to a lot more people.

When people listening to a well designed sub say the bass is sloppy or slow then either they need to experiment with room placement/level or they are not used to what true low end extension "sounds" like.

[SoSpacey]

Originally posted by reverb


This is simply not true. Even the best subs do not have 'better' bass than high-end full range speakers, they typically have more bass. Being full range means more than 'has bass', there is crossover quality and tuning to consider. And for accuracy and time/phase alignment two subs must be utilized, in the front in a music system.

I will not utilize subs in a dedicated music system. In critical listening to diverse program material on reasonable to esoteric hardware for twenty-five years I have never heard better or more acurate bass with a sub, just more prominent. I have also read very little that contradicts this, and much that supports it.

I do recommend the use of a sub for HT systems though, do to budget and program material. However, most speaker designers (and I can quote folks like Richard Vanderseen) concur that four full range speakers without a sub is preferred for the most accurate and impressive HT sound. I simply find that not practical. Many people are very critical of the .1 channels existance. I would add that THX certification is indicative of mediocrity, not great sound - it is subscribing to how they think HT should sound.

Anyway, a tower speaker is most certainly not a compromise between low frequency and higher frenquencies. There are speakers proving this out in many price ranges - Vandersteen 2C to B&W Nautilis to PSB Silver Stratus to whatever... In regards to quality speakers, for accurate repoduction, they are in fact less of a compromise. It is true, however, that regarding less expensive speakers monitors are often more precise, though adding a sub does not benefit their accuracy, it just adds bass.

And the Hsu is a decent sub for music, but if the budget is limited I would consider others for HT use.

When all is said and done it is what you like. There are so many factors that go into this, that noone can make a general point about ideal conditions.

I agreed with a lot of what reverb had to say, except for his last quote. Maybe I mis-understood him.

You are saying that if you do not have a budget that would allow you to spend $500 on a sub, then there are better things out there just for HT? Like the Sony Sub? But just for HT?

The Sony sub cant touch the HSU for HT, and shouldnt be in the same room with the HSU for music. I did a side by side. Its not even close.

With that said, those were MY ears doing the listening. Others can have other opinions. Thats the whole point. Listen for yourself.

[reverb]

Originally posted by daledude
By having a dedicated driver to reproduce the low frequencies, it is much easier to experiment with placement to get the smoothest most accurate bass response without having to sacrifice other areas.

Full-range speakers do have dedicated drivers to handle the lower frenquencies, hence the name full-range - which is three or more drivers (treble/midrange/bass). There are many full-range speakers that produce bass below 30Hz.

Example of full-range speaker: Vandersteen 2Ce which features a first-order crossover with 1" tweeter (5kHz-30kHz), 4.5" midrange (600Hz-5kHz), 8" woofer (35Hz-600Hz), 10" active acoustic coupler (26Hz-35Hz).

To me a 'tower speaker' simply means floor standing. In the nomenclature I am familiar with and believe to be correct there is only monitor, full-range and subwoofer speaker classifications for typical home/studio application.

Regarding speaker placement, it is undoubtedly critical for all speakers.