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View Full Version : Se7en (spoilers!)


CloverClover
05-12-01, 10:04 PM
Just saw Se7en, it was a good movie,

Was that photographer who took their photos and they said get outta here, was that John Doe?

In the end though, there were seven deaths! I noticed at the end that Pitt's wife was the 6th, and John Doe was the 7th, right? What is the 7th sin, anyway? Was he killing people because he committed those sins, or just killing in the names of the 7 sins. Like did he kill the fat man because of glutony? If so, why did he wanna get killed, or why didn't he just kill himself and not go through the trouble,

What was the big plot twist though that I heard so much about? I didn't notice any major twists in that?

What did you guys think of this movie? '95 musta been a big year for Spacey, and he musta spooked out his audiences with Se7en and U.Suspects

I also noticed that you never actually saw any of the murders happening, so I guess the real scare is imagining them.

David Fincher is 2 for 2 with me, is "The Game" worth seeing? I'm not even gonna think about seeing Alien 3 though, heh..

TheBang
05-12-01, 10:30 PM
Originally posted by TheCLovur
Just saw Se7en, it was a good movie,

Was that photographer who took their photos and they said get outta here, was that John Doe?

Yes, if you watch it in slow motion, you can tell that the guy's face is Kevin Spacey as he walks down the stairs.

In the end though, there were seven deaths! I noticed at the end that Pitt's wife was the 6th, and John Doe was the 7th, right? What is the 7th sin, anyway? Was he killing people because he committed those sins, or just killing in the names of the 7 sins. Like did he kill the fat man because of glutony? If so, why did he wanna get killed, or why didn't he just kill himself and not go through the trouble,

What was the big plot twist though that I heard so much about? I didn't notice any major twists in that?

Listen to John Doe's dialogue with Det. Mills at the end, after Somerset's discovered Mills' wife's head. Doe explains that he <b>Envied</b> Mills' normal life and his normal wife. He went to Mills' house and "tried to play husband" but it didn't work out so he took her pretty head out of Envy.

Then, because of what he did, Mills became Wrath and killed Doe, thus completing the murders and Doe's masterpiece.

The big twist is that the cops are the ones who are supposed to stop him. They are supposed to take the moral high ground and stop this terrible string of murders. And Doe turned out to be so brilliantly evil that he managed to make them finish his grisley work for him.

What did you guys think of this movie? '95 musta been a big year for Spacey, and he musta spooked out his audiences with Se7en and U.Suspects

These two movies are what launched Spacey's career. They are both great movies.

David Fincher is 2 for 2 with me, is "The Game" worth seeing? I'm not even gonna think about seeing Alien 3 though, heh..

Yes, the Game is another great mind****. Very well written and suspenseful, with trademark Fincher stylishness. And you should give Alien 3 a chance, if only to see the cinematography.

caiman
05-12-01, 10:37 PM
One more note about Mill's wife's murder. She was not being punished for any sin. Her murder was simply a way to get Mills so angry that he would for sure kill Doe. Many people get confused over this.

Tesiae
05-13-01, 02:00 AM
Heyo,


Okay, so we know that the Glutony, Greed, and Sloth, and Lust victims have already been chosen by John Doe at the beginning of the film as can be appreciated by their respective shrines w/ pics at Johnny's apartments. It's at this point that Johnny decides upon who Wrath shall be i.e. Mills. My question is, who was originally was to be Wrath? Would he just have picked anyone who fit the profile? Did he always intend to be the last victim ( Envy )?

filmguy
05-13-01, 04:01 PM
If you noticed at the end, out in the desert when Mill's has Doe on his knees and a gun pointed at him.
Well, Doe asks, practically begs Mill's to kill him. And he does so after the head situation.

But the reason why he begs for Mill's to shot him is because he doesn't want to suffer, and he knows Mill's will be so mad that he will cap him in the head, suffer-free.

My opinion, he should of shot him in both feet and hand.

TCG
05-13-01, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by filmguy
If you noticed at the end, out in the desert when Mill's has Doe on his knees and a gun pointed at him.
Well, Doe asks, practically begs Mill's to kill him. And he does so after the head situation.

But the reason why he begs for Mill's to shot him is because he doesn't want to suffer, and he knows Mill's will be so mad that he will cap him in the head, suffer-free.

My opinion, he should of shot him in both feet and hand.

Definitely! I woulda shot him in the ear or something, and then in each joint, then let him rot in jail like that. If I could compose myself.

The movie could be called "Eight" if you count the unborn child as a murder, but I'm not gonna touch that one.

The Game is another good Fincher film. He's quickly becoming one of my favorite directors.

necros
05-13-01, 04:57 PM
Just watched this again last night with the gang.. One thing I noticed.. in the end they're in the car driving to where they were going... they're driving there cuz afterwards john doe agreed to give a full confession for what he did..

But, they're in the car and Mills is all talking to him, and at one point John Doe just goes off bluring out about all the people he killed, describing each victim. Well, there's his confession right there, they shoulda just turned the car around and went home, it was all on tape cuz Mill & Sommerset were bugged and all. At least, that's what I woulda done if I was driving the car :)

einTier
05-13-01, 05:29 PM
I can't add anything about Se7en that hasn't yet been said.

But, do see "the Game". It's a very good film that didn't get the attention it deserved. Just when you think you have it figured out, it turns. More than once. More than twice. Absolutely brilliant.

TCG
05-13-01, 09:28 PM
Originally posted by necros
Just watched this again last night with the gang.. One thing I noticed.. in the end they're in the car driving to where they were going... they're driving there cuz afterwards john doe agreed to give a full confession for what he did..

But, they're in the car and Mills is all talking to him, and at one point John Doe just goes off bluring out about all the people he killed, describing each victim. Well, there's his confession right there, they shoulda just turned the car around and went home, it was all on tape cuz Mill & Sommerset were bugged and all. At least, that's what I woulda done if I was driving the car :)
True, but they are cops and they want to recover the bodies. That's what i figure.

Mr. Salty
05-13-01, 11:00 PM
Originally posted by necros
Just watched this again last night with the gang.. One thing I noticed.. in the end they're in the car driving to where they were going... they're driving there cuz afterwards john doe agreed to give a full confession for what he did..

But, they're in the car and Mills is all talking to him, and at one point John Doe just goes off bluring out about all the people he killed, describing each victim. Well, there's his confession right there, they shoulda just turned the car around and went home, it was all on tape cuz Mill & Sommerset were bugged and all. At least, that's what I woulda done if I was driving the car :)

The police explicitly said they didn't need a confession from John Doe to convict him, it was just a matter of convenience. They were taking him out into the country because they believed they would never find Doe's final victim if they didn't, which the public would surely have demanded. They had no idea, of course, what Doe's actual plan was.

Watch the scene again where Mills, Somerset and their captain meet with Doe's attorney.

mersaulte
05-13-01, 11:19 PM
Originally posted by Tesiae
Heyo,


Okay, so we know that the Glutony, Greed, and Sloth, and Lust victims have already been chosen by John Doe at the beginning of the film as can be appreciated by their respective shrines w/ pics at Johnny's apartments. It's at this point that Johnny decides upon who Wrath shall be i.e. Mills. My question is, who was originally was to be Wrath? Would he just have picked anyone who fit the profile? Did he always intend to be the last victim ( Envy )?


I've also often wondered who was to eventually be Wrath.

We know that Doe bound Victor (Sloth) and began torturing him a year before. He certainly didn't know Mills even existed then (he in fact had not even moved to the city at that point) let alone know that he would ultimately be one of the detectives on the case... So, perhaps a year before, Doe did not quite have the "masterpiece" completely envisioned at that point. He may have had an idea where it was going... but did not completely Realize his plan until he saw what a hothead Mills was, saw how he could fit him into the picture, use him as one of the final pieces of the puzzle. If that makes any sense. He couldn't have had Wrath and Envy figured out from the very beginning when he first tied Sloth to that bed. Maybe he'd had other ideas for how he would "do" those two sins, but again, I don't think he completely realized his masterpiece until he started finding out a little about Mills.

MrBEAViS
05-13-01, 11:53 PM
Mills dies, completing the "masterpiece."

If you listen, Somerset says, when Mills is about to kill Doe, "You can't kill a suspect, David. It's death row all the way, you know that."

badger1997
05-14-01, 12:13 AM
Originally posted by MrBEAViS
Mills dies, completing the "masterpiece."

If you listen, Somerset says, when Mills is about to kill Doe, "You can't kill a suspect, David. It's death row all the way, you know that." I disagree totally. In the end of the movie when Mills is being put in the car the chief says "We'll take care of him." I never, ever got the idea he was going to go to death row. He would have never been convicted of any crime that would send him to death row in that situation. I would venture it might be hard to find a jury who would convict him at all, let alone of first-degree murder. He could claim all sort of things, including temporarily insanity in that case.

MrBEAViS
05-14-01, 12:28 AM
Originally posted by badger1997
Originally posted by MrBEAViS
Mills dies, completing the "masterpiece."

If you listen, Somerset says, when Mills is about to kill Doe, "You can't kill a suspect, David. It's death row all the way, you know that." I disagree totally. In the end of the movie when Mills is being put in the car the chief says "We'll take care of him." I never, ever got the idea he was going to go to death row. He would have never been convicted of any crime that would send him to death row in that situation. I would venture it might be hard to find a jury who would convict him at all, let alone of first-degree murder. He could claim all sort of things, including temporarily insanity in that case.
True, but found it wrapped everything up nicely.

Jepthah
05-14-01, 12:31 AM
I really wish that they had gone with the even DARKER ending in the earlier version of the script. Somerset shoots Mills dead after he kills John Doe. Makes sense.

Still a fantastic ending, though.

Harpo
05-15-01, 11:08 AM
Even if Mills doesn't literally die, his idealism is surely destroyed, and possibly any hope of a real "life" after this case.

Oh, BTW, what's all this recommendation of Fincher with Alien 3 and The Game? Come on, people! FIGHT CLUB! Nuff said.

CloverClover
05-15-01, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by Jepthah
I really wish that they had gone with the even DARKER ending in the earlier version of the script. Somerset shoots Mills dead after he kills John Doe. Makes sense.

Still a fantastic ending, though.

hmm.. why would Somerset shoot Mills? They were pals, is it because Somerset knew that Mills life was basically over after he lost everything, and living would be pain after that?


(In the other version)

Tesiae
05-15-01, 06:23 PM
Clovur: Jepthah is wrong. In the original ending ( which BTW Morgan Freeman prefers ), Somerset shoots John Doe, thereby preventing Mills from fulfilling Wrath, which throws an enormous monkey wrench into Doe's masterpiece. Watch the alternate ending on the DVD.

Jepthah
05-15-01, 07:11 PM
Originally posted by Tesiae
Clovur: Jepthah is wrong. In the original ending ( which BTW Morgan Freeman prefers ), Somerset shoots John Doe, thereby preventing Mills from fulfilling Wrath, which throws an enormous monkey wrench into Doe's masterpiece. Watch the alternate ending on the DVD.

No, we are both right, in a sense. I have read an actual earlier draft of the script (although the scene may not have been filmed) and the ending I mentioned was in there. I had not seen the ending you mention because I don't own and haven't rented the new Se7en DVD. I still think the ending where Somerset shoots Mills after John Doe is killed is best, because it is the most tragic and the most cathartic--although I can see the potential criticism of it being 'over the top.'

Clovur, you are right about Somerset's motive in shooting Mills (at least that was what I interpreted the earlier draft).

Giantrobo
05-15-01, 08:20 PM
WAIT WAIT WAIT!!!


The drug guy DIDN'T die did he?

Wasn't he just on the edge of death?
So maybe the movie should be called

"S6X" (SIX)

TheBang
05-16-01, 07:40 AM
Originally posted by Giantrobo
"S6X" (SIX)

HA! Cute. :)

The doctor says that 1) Sloth's brain is mush and 2) that he basically won't live. So I think we can assume that he dies.

Besides, it's not so important that he dies as is the pain and agony that he suffered during his year of immobilization.

HN
05-16-01, 11:09 AM
Originally posted by Giantrobo
WAIT WAIT WAIT!!!


The drug guy DIDN'T die did he?

Wasn't he just on the edge of death?
So maybe the movie should be called

"S6X" (SIX)

"Se7en" is not necessarily referring to the number of deaths but rather the number of "deadly sins."

--HN

Ketamine
05-16-01, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by HN
Originally posted by Giantrobo
WAIT WAIT WAIT!!!


The drug guy DIDN'T die did he?

Wasn't he just on the edge of death?
So maybe the movie should be called

"S6X" (SIX)

"Se7en" is not necessarily referring to the number of deaths but rather the number of "deadly sins."

--HN

Right. Se7en has nothing to do with number of deaths, it is the number of sins.

As far as wrath goes, Doe didn't want Mills to die. It was part of the masterpiece that Mills had to live out his life with the thought of what happened (wife's death, breaking the law by killing a suspect, and wishing that he would have been killed in the alley instead of living and finding out his wife was horribly murdered). As far as having his masterpiece figured out before Mills came along, I'm sure Doe was waiting for "God" to show him how to finish it which He did. And finally, as far as the confession thing, as said before, they didn't need it, but wanted it b/c they were afraid Doe would pleed insanity and not get jail time.

Giantrobo
05-17-01, 05:40 AM
Damn!

Ya'll just just couldn't let me fell smart for 20 minutes could ya?

I thought I figured somethng brilliant out!

I was about to start a webpage about that whole "S6X" premise! :mad:

Damn you all to middle management!!!

[Edited by Giantrobo on 05-17-01 at 05:14 PM]

Llama
05-17-01, 09:58 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jepthah

No, we are both right, in a sense. I have read an actual earlier draft of the script (although the scene may not have been filmed) and the ending I mentioned was in there. I had not seen the ending you mention because I don't own and haven't rented the new Se7en DVD. I still think the ending where Somerset shoots Mills after John Doe is killed is best, because it is the most tragic and the most cathartic--although I can see the potential criticism of it being 'over the top.'

I have to say that that ending would have wrecked the movie for me. Why on Earth would Somerset ruin his career just before retirement in order to shoot his partner, a man with whom he got along fine and wasn't angry at, just for the end of a film? You can understand Mills' anger, but I couldn't deal with Morgan Freeman killing him.

MrPeanut
02-03-03, 08:07 PM
I still don't get it.

Aren't you supposed to die from your sin? Like the gluttony guy, who dies from being so gluttonous. Or the greed guy who dies from his own greed. Or is that purely a coincidence? I say that becuase the last two murders don't follow the trend at all.

I thought it was great how he didn't kill innocent people, only sinners. It made him out to be an evil genius with a masterplan. But then he goes and kills the wife, who was innocent, and ruins everything. Doesn't that bring him back down to the level or everyday psychopath?

So Mills is the one guilty of wrath? yet he doesn't die. You could argue that John Doe was guilty of envy, and was killed for it, but that doesn't explain wrath. You can argue that Mills was punished for his wrath by being arrested and losing his wife, but he wasn't killed, and that was the whole point. To say it was as bad as death is stretching it to the point where you're seeing what you want to see, not what is there. At that point you might as well assume that John Doe died for Mills' wrath, relating him to Christ.

I wanted seven murders of seven sinners. That was his plan. His "masterpiece." I've found no explanation of the ending that shows that that was even his original intent for the last two murders. I wouldn't mind if he didn't complete it, and the cops somehow thwarted his evil plan, but that doesn't seem to be what happened either.

Either John Doe is a run of the mill crazy, or that was some very sloppy stroytelling at the end.

devilshalo
02-03-03, 08:33 PM
Originally posted by MrPeanut
So Mills is the one guilty of wrath AND envy?

John Doe states that his sin is ENVY.

From the script:

<CENTER>JOHN DOE
I visited your home this morning, after
you left.

JOHN DOE
I tried to play husband... tried to taste
the life of a simple man, but it didn't
work out. So, I took a souvenir.

JOHN DOE
Her pretty head.

JOHN DOE
Because I envy your normal life. Envy is my sin.
</CENTER>

RyoHazuki
02-03-03, 09:04 PM
I believe that John Doe killing the wife was his sin as a person, not as the guy on the mission. When he said he didn't kill any innocent people in his mission he didnt. Gwenyth wasn't part of the mission. His own death was planned because he was a sinner as well.

Goat3001
02-03-03, 09:27 PM
Originally posted by MrPeanut
[B]I still don't get it.

Aren't you supposed to die from your sin? Like the gluttony guy, who dies from being so gluttonous. Or the greed guy who dies from his own greed. Or is that purely a coincidence? I say that becuase the last two murders don't follow the trend at all.

I wanted seven murders of seven sinners. That was his plan. His "masterpiece." I've found no explanation of the ending that shows that that was even his original intent for the last two murders. I wouldn't mind if he didn't complete it, and the cops somehow thwarted his evil plan, but that doesn't seem to be what happened either.

I didn't see it as that they HAD to die. They just had to suffer for their sins. The sloth guy didn't really die but he suffered. And he gave the pride girl a choice and she chose death over disfigurement. She could've lived for her sin, but she would have to suffer.

Mills is guilty of wrath. He killed John Doe because of what he did to his wife. John Doe was guilty of envy which was already explained.

I thought it was great how he didn't kill innocent people, only sinners.


Off topic, but imo this made the movie much greater. The fact that what John Doe said in the car was true made the movie that much creepier.

MrPeanut
02-03-03, 10:37 PM
devilshalo: you're correct. sorry, it's been a while since I've seen/thought about this. I had to reword my last post a bit, but it doesn't change my feelings on the ending.

MrPeanut
02-03-03, 10:44 PM
"I didn't see it as that they HAD to die. They just had to suffer for their sins. The sloth guy didn't really die but he suffered. And he gave the pride girl a choice and she chose death over disfigurement."

I think it's a safe assumption that the sloth guy dies. And the pride girl... her suffering is her death. Her choosing death is how she died by her sin. He didn't disfigure her to make her suffer disfigurment, he wanted to show how pride could be deadly, and proved his point quite well. Had she chosen to live, she would still suffer, but it would have nothing to do with her pride and then ruin the whole point of it. John Doe, the evil genius, got this one right.