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The Shining Discussion -- questions, theories, spoilers, etc.

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The Shining Discussion -- questions, theories, spoilers, etc.

Old 11-25-02, 10:26 AM
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The Shining Discussion -- questions, theories, spoilers, etc.

I just saw this movie for the first time this weekend. I really enjoyed it. I'm finding that the horror/thrillers of the past is what I like. I have a couple questions that I need answered though:

1.) When Jacks wife locks him in that room with the canned food in it, who lets him out? Is it a ghost? I've never read the book, so I don't know the specifics.

2.) Why is Jack in the picture at the end of the movie? Was he the original caretaker or something. I remember the line in the bathroom, when he was talking to the ghost of previous caretaker that was killed, and he said that Jack had always been the caretaker. I wasn't sure what that meant, or if it had any significant meaning.

3.) What's the deal with the kid and REDRUM (obviously figured out it was murder backwards), but all of a sudden he snapped out of his "trance" and ran into the bush maze, and then left with his mother. I though he was "possessed" too. What happened?

I figure that since I haven't read the book, I may have missed out on some details, but maybe you guys can help.
Old 11-25-02, 11:28 AM
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I can't answer the questions, but I would like to offer my 2 cents on the film....

I really admired parts of it, especially Jack's performance, but overall I was disappointed in the film. I found it to be rather slow-moving and not very scary or suspenseful.

I saw it some time ago, though. Maybe it's worth a re-viewing.
Old 11-25-02, 11:51 AM
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1.) When Jacks wife locks him in that room with the canned food in it, who lets him out? Is it a ghost? I've never read the book, so I don't know the specifics.
Well, it is Grady's voice that converses with Jack. But since he makes numerous "we" references I would suggest that it's the hotel itself.

2.) Why is Jack in the picture at the end of the movie? Was he the original caretaker or something. I remember the line in the bathroom, when he was talking to the ghost of previous caretaker that was killed, and he said that Jack had always been the caretaker. I wasn't sure what that meant, or if it had any significant meaning.
That sense of deja vu and doubling is prominent throughout the film. One big instance is when Wendy brings Jack breakfast in bed and he tells her "I've had feelings of deja vu before, but this is ridiculous." (note that half the scene is shot in a mirror) And also another scene where Jack has a nightmare that he killed Wendy and Danny. So is Jack a ghost himself? Kubrick would never provide such a pat answer. He seems more interested in exploring the "dark half" aspect of Gothic horror.

3.) What's the deal with the kid and REDRUM (obviously figured out it was murder backwards), but all of a sudden he snapped out of his "trance" and ran into the bush maze, and then left with his mother. I though he was "possessed" too. What happened?
Danny's inner voice "Tony" obviously didn't like the idea of living in the Overlook hotel. Danny's shining knows what happened and will happen, but these images don't come clearly to the boy. He freaks out in the apartment as a warning, and there are further signs of dread as in his conversation with the cook O'Hallorann, and of course the two girls. REDRUM becomes significant when Wendy sees it in a mirror (an important device for suggesting an other, darker side to a person). Also, when Danny writes REDRUM and wakes up Wendy, Jack begins breaking down their hotel room door. I'd like to think of it as the hotel at odds with Danny's shining.

I figure that since I haven't read the book, I may have missed out on some details, but maybe you guys can help.
Just rewatch the movie to get a sense of how Kubrick uses symmetry/asymmetry and doubling. The book is good, but quite different, more about the hotel taking over Jack. The film is more about the hotel trying to get a hold of Danny, and also an exploration of horror itself.
Old 11-25-02, 11:59 AM
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Thanks a lot sundog, but one answer confused me (the first one). I understand that Jack converses with the voice of Grady, but who or what actually opens the door and lets Jack out? Jack, his wife, and Danny, are the only actual humans in the hotel at that point. So if it wasn't Danny or the wife (I forgot her name), than it must have been a ghost, or the hotel itself. My guess would be that it was Grady's ghost that did it, since he was forced to promise punishment against his wife, but I just wanted to be sure. A ghost opening the door, is much different than the hotel itself opening the door.
Old 11-25-02, 12:23 PM
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So was Grady's ghost was the personification of the hotel? That is, Grady was the hotel?
Old 11-25-02, 12:23 PM
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Well, then it's just a matter of wording. To me the Overlook Hotel controls the ghosts.

But the ambiguity is what makes that scene so important. The act of unlocking the door is the first actual physical manifestation for Jack. Everything else could be attributed to his madness. Grady is essentially another (successful) version of Jack Torrance. So in a sense Jack is talking to himself and once he decides to kill his family the door is opened. That we never see Grady in this scene adds to the impression that Jack is alone. Like I said, intentionally ambiguous.
Old 11-25-02, 01:19 PM
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Well, I read the book several times and I always took from it that there were no ghosts, only the hotel. King was trying to say that when bad things happen (very bad things like murder) they leave an imprint on the place they occurred. People like Danny and the cook have "The Shining", the ability to pick up on these imprints, and give them a sort of life. In Danny the ability is so powerful that it give these bad things a sort of collective sentience. These bad things are actually the hotel given life. Danny is a sort of battery that makes it all move.

So, to answer the question, it is the hotel that opened the door, not a ghost. Also what was hinted at by the movie, but more fleshed out in the book, was that the hotel did not want Jack or Wendy. The hotel was only stroking Jacks ego. Its real target was Danny. It wanted Danny. It wanted the life that Danny gave it. "...forever, and ever, and ever."

One thing I never understood was that if the book (and movie) basicly discounted ghosts. So if ghosts don't exist like spirits that emain behind, how was Dannys power suposed to remain after his death.
Old 11-25-02, 02:45 PM
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Just kind of a neat aside to this...

I live in Denver and have family in Estes Park whom I often visit. Estes Park is home to the real Overlook Hotel (where Steven King got the inspiration to write The Shining and also where the television movie version was filmed). The place has always been rumored to be haunted and most of the employees insist on seeing/hearing/feeling ghosts at some point. My wife and I stayed there in a suite last New Years Eve. We didn't experience any "ghostly" occurances (though our room never got above 60 degrees even with the heat on full blast ). However, we were woken up the next morning by the police knocking on our hotel door to ask if everything was ok. Aparently they were going from room to room to check everyone after receiving numerous complaints from hotel guests on the 3rd and 4th floors that a lady kept screaming in her room threatening to kill herself over and over. They never found her (or at least the 'perpetrator' never admitted to it and must have claimed everything was fine). I found out from my aunt who used to cocktail waitress in the hotel bar that guests and employees often complained of hearing a woman screaming and threatening to kill herself when she worked there a few years ago.
Spooky
Old 11-26-02, 06:23 AM
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Don't look to the book for answers. The film is very much Kubrick's interpretation of the novel, rather than a direct adaption. It's one of the world's worst

As far as Jack being in the picture, my take was that it was symbolic of the hotel "claiming" Jack. The hotel itself is evil and destroys lives, collects damned souls like an old man collects stamps.
Old 11-26-02, 08:03 AM
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Josh, I agree with the last part...the whole story is really about the house and it imposing it's "will" on the caretakers. From my memory of the book Jack is already sucked in and he is fighting himself between succuming to the house and protecting his family. Eventually the house wins Jack over. He likes the power and "fits" in to the society and feels like he belongs. Once he converts then the house must protect itself against Danny and not let the secret out to the world. His shining ability is a threat and must be destroyed.
Old 11-26-02, 08:46 AM
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I have a different feeling about how #1 occurred. I might have mentioned this in another thread before, and I believe there are definite subtle clues to this rather than it being just wild speculation.

The short answer is I believe Jack has powers he doesn't realize he has.

I say this because of the story Dick Halloran tells Danny about how he used to have telepathic conversations with his grandmother. This leads me to think that perhaps the ability of "shining" is actually genetic.

We already know Danny has the power - but does that also mean his father could have it and not realize it? Remember when Jack is walking around by himself in the hotel, and somehow manages to SEE his family in the small-scale version of the hedge maze outside? That seems a little odd for someone with no special powers!

There are also references he made about having strong deja vu. And of course his ability to see the ballroom come to life, the woman in room 237, etc., etc. (Although in the end, Wendy can suddenly see these ghosts as well. To me, that is the part I have the biggest problem with explaining. Unless she has simply gone mad or something.)

So - Kubrick not showing Grady in the door-opening scene was definitely deliberate. I think its very possible Jack opened the door himself. In his delusional state he just doesn't know he can do stuff like.
Old 12-03-02, 09:10 AM
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In the book, Hallorann tells Danny that he tried to shine into his mother and father, and although he ascertained that his mother didn't have the shining but normal motherly intuition (she had flinched a bit when he shined onto her), he was puzzled over Jack. He was certain he didn't shine...but when he did try...something...but Hallorann couldn't put his finger on it, so he dismissed it.
Old 12-03-02, 01:02 PM
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What was the deal with Grady's first name being changed within the film? When the Hotel's manager Ullman was interviewing Jack Torrance, he mentioned Charles Grady as one of the winter caretakers who slaughtered his wife and children in 1970.

Later in the film, the ghost of Grady appears to Jack as a waiter in the Ballroom - except he introduces himself as Delbert Grady.
Old 12-03-02, 01:52 PM
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Originally posted by Buttmunker
What was the deal with Grady's first name being changed within the film? When the Hotel's manager Ullman was interviewing Jack Torrance, he mentioned Charles Grady as one of the winter caretakers who slaughtered his wife and children in 1970.

Later in the film, the ghost of Grady appears to Jack as a waiter in the Ballroom - except he introduces himself as Delbert Grady.
I was hoping someone would bring this up. Another weird inconsistency (off the top of my head) is when Ullman also refers to Grady's daughters as 2 different ages (6 & 9 I believe) but they're obviously twins when Danny sees them. This goes back to the asymmetrical themes I wrote about earlier. It's all about the doppelganger, the other side of the mirror. Everything in this movie has dirtier side (save for Shelley Duvall perhaps?) And it helps to keep sly audiences disoriented.

Last edited by sundog; 12-03-02 at 01:54 PM.
Old 12-03-02, 02:00 PM
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Originally posted by sundog
I was hoping someone would bring this up. Another weird inconsistency (off the top of my head) is when Ullman also refers to Grady's daughters as 2 different ages (6 & 9 I believe) but they're obviously twins when Danny sees them.
Actually, when Ullman is discussing Grady's daughters, I believe he was speculating on their ages.
Old 12-03-02, 02:02 PM
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Originally posted by sundog
Another weird inconsistency (off the top of my head) is when Ullman also refers to Grady's daughters as 2 different ages (6 & 9 I believe) but they're obviously twins when Danny sees them.
actually, i believe i read somewhere that those actors weren't even related and that they weren't supposed to be twins. i think if you pause the film and look at the girls, you notice some differences, but with the same hair and dress, a lot of people assume they are twins.

can anyone else confirm that?
Old 12-03-02, 02:06 PM
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Upon thinking about it - and if memory serves - Ullman does, in fact, refer to the daughters as "adorable twin girls, oh around 8 or 10."
Old 12-03-02, 02:10 PM
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I know there's websites dedicated to this sort of thing, but I can't help but wonder why Kubrick made Jack out to be nuts from the onset of the film? You could tell from the drive up with Jack, Wendy, and Danny that Jack is seriously disturbed when they're discussing the Donner Party. Jack is explaining about cannibalism to Danny, and Wendy protests. Danny defends Dad by saying, "It's okay, Mom. I saw it all on TV." Then, Jack does his typical Nicholson eyebrow and eye-rollin' as he says, "See? It's okay. He saw it on the television."

Nuts. You'd almost believe he'd have hacked them all up right there on the road before they even moved into the Overlook Hotel.
Old 02-14-03, 10:49 AM
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Question about "The Shining" story plot

Would somebody explain the story plot of "The Shining" to me please. I've seen the movie multiple times and I've come to the conclusion that it's my favorite horror movie of all time but I don't get some parts of the story. Here's a list below......

1. Why is there blood leaking from the elevator doors? Does it have something to do with the hotel being haunted by Mr. Grady and the previous murders?

2. Why can Mrs. Torence see dead skeleton's in the main lobby at the end of the movie?

3. Is Jack's conversation with Mr. Grady in his head or a ghost?

4. Why does Jack's face appear in the "Overlook Hotel July 4th, 1921 Ball" photo?

5. Was Jack previously married and the previous caretaker too?

Somebody please help me out here.
Old 02-14-03, 10:56 AM
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1. Because it's scary.

2. Because they are trying to scare her.

3. With a ghost.

4. Becasue he has entered into the hotel's "history". He's become part of the evils of the hotel.

5. No
Old 02-14-03, 10:58 AM
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Originally posted by sherm42
1. Because it's scary.

2. Because they are trying to scare her.

3. With a ghost.

4. Becasue he has entered into the hotel's "history". He's become part of the evils of the hotel.

5. No
1. I don't think that really answers the question of why blood was leaking. A storywriter just doesn't put something like that into the story because it's scary.

2. But who was trying to scare her?
Old 02-14-03, 11:03 AM
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Originally posted by flyingbee22
1. I don't think that really answers the question of why blood was leaking. A storywriter just doesn't put something like that into the story because it's scary.

2. But who was trying to scare her?
1. Sure they do. It looks scary. I don't think that scene was in the book. There is really no particular reason for it to be there except that it is scary.

2. The hotel is the evil entity. I'm not really a fan of the movie. It simply doesn't go into what is behind the horror. In the book, the evil forces are really an accumulation of all the bad things that have happened in the hotel over the many years of existence.
Old 02-14-03, 11:06 AM
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Re: Question about "The Shining" story plot

1. Why is there blood leaking from the elevator doors?
Bit more than a leak, eh?

Does it have something to do with the hotel being haunted by Mr. Grady and the previous murders?
It more has to do with the hotel being this capsule of time and evil than anything deliberately communicated.

2. Why can Mrs. Torence see dead skeleton's in the main lobby at the end of the movie?
Because the hotel is forcing her to shine same way Jack was.

3. Is Jack's conversation with Mr. Grady in his head or a ghost?
With the hotel. Grady refers to himself as we.

4. Why does Jack's face appear in the "Overlook Hotel July 4th, 1921 Ball" photo?
Because he was previously there, though not in this incarnation.

5. Was Jack previously married and the previous caretaker too?
Sure, listen to Grady. "Sir, you've always been the caretaker."

Somebody please help me out here.
Sorry, all I can do is to help confuse the issue. Have fun!
Old 02-14-03, 11:07 AM
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Originally posted by sherm42
1. Because it's scary.

2. Because they are trying to scare her.

3. With a ghost.

4. Becasue he has entered into the hotel's "history". He's become part of the evils of the hotel.

5. No
4. Do other people see Jack's face in the ballroom photo though?
Old 02-14-03, 11:10 AM
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Originally posted by flyingbee22
4. Do other people see Jack's face in the ballroom photo though?
I don't know. I think the point is that no one ever really looks.

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